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Official Feedback request: Global Illumination changes with the Unity 6 Beta (2023.3) release

Discussion in 'Unity 6 Beta' started by StevenK_Unity3D, Mar 6, 2024.

  1. StevenK_Unity3D

    StevenK_Unity3D

    Unity Technologies

    Joined:
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    Global Illumination changes with the Unity 6 Beta (2023.3) release, we want to hear your feedback!

    Hi all, following on from our request for feedback with the previous tech release, we now want to hear about your experience using the changes to global illumination we delivered with the Unity 6 Beta release. We do this so that we can make sure we are providing you with the best products for your day to day experience in Unity.

    If you have experience with using the global illumination changes delivered with the Unity 6 Beta (2023.3) release, please help complete the survey linked below (extended until May 31st, 2024):

    Feedback request survey: Global Illumination changes with the Unity 6 Beta (2023.3) release


    What’s changing with the Unity 6 Beta (2023.3) release?

    Unity's Light Baker

    C# Light Probe Baking API
    With Unity 6 we introduce a new API for baking Light Probes. Baking no longer relies on the Lightmapping delegates, where the user gets callbacks during the baking process. Instead, the process is very explicit and free of side effects, for example enabling the user to control how many probes to bake at a time to balance execution time vs memory usage.

    We use the APV probe baking editor code as the example for how to use the API, find this example here on github.

    Documentation is available now: RadeonRaysContext, RadeonRaysProbeIntegrator and RadeonRaysProbePostProcessor.

    Note that this API is only available for Light Probes. Other lighting data like Lightmap support is planned for a future release.


    Adaptive Probe Volumes

    Bake only Probe Volumes
    Baking lighting data can take a long time, especially when including lightmap data in the build process. With this feature, we have enabled you to bake only Probe Volume data, significantly improving iteration time. This feature uses the first version of our new public C# Light Probe Baking API mentioned above.


    In the Adaptive Probe Volumes Tab, you can choose to only update Probe Volumes using the Generate Lighting dropdown menu

    Baking many probes uses less memory
    In the past, baking large Adaptive Probe Volumes with many probes has been problematic, and canceling bakes in this use case could take many minutes. This was mainly due to too many probes being baked in a single batch, which would cause memory to spike.

    With this improvement, we are able to lower memory consumption when baking many probes, and stopping the bake process is now much more responsive.

    Virtual Offset now uses Unity’s new internal Ray Intersector API
    Adaptive Probe Volumes now use Unity’s new Ray Intersector API to perform Virtual Offset calculations when baking probes. This replaces a temporary implementation which used a physics collider workaround for offsetting invalid probes embedded in meshes.

    These improvements result in a considerably simpler authoring workflow, with much faster lighting data generation.

    APV Sky Occlusion
    With this feature, we enable creators to apply a dynamic time of day lighting scenario to their virtual environments. You can now manually change or you can script (i.e. Shader Graph, Timeline) sky settings and see Light Probe-lit indirect lighting from the sky update in real-time.

    In HDRP we have enabled sky color to be sampled dynamically from the sky.

    In URP, ambient probe real-time updates is not yet supported. However, sky color can be animated (scripted). Our recommended min-spec device range is GLES 3.2 and above.


    Using Sky Occlusion can achieve more color variations of static indirect lighting from the sky as compared to APV scenario blending.

    URP: Blend Lighting Scenarios
    Baked lighting is inherently static and limits the ways in which creators are able to build more interesting, dynamic experiences like time of day, or on/off lighting scenarios.

    Now at feature parity with HDRP, with “Blend Lighting Scenarios”, you have the ability to bake individual probe volumes lighting scenarios to be used in your virtual environments, and blend between them at runtime using scripting.

    This way there is no need to duplicate the scenes to store multiple probe volumes bake results and one can easily swap the baked lighting data for day/night transition or switching lights on and off in a room. For developers, it can also be very useful to compare multiple baked results and iterate more quickly. Our recommended min-spec is GLES 3.2 and above.


    Multiple lighting scenarios can be baked then blended at runtime. This only applies to probe volumes data, other elements like lightmaps, lights position or intensity need to be handled manually.

    APV is now supported with AssetBundles / Addressables
    Previously, APV has not been compatible with AssetBundles / Addressables. With this release, APV will now support the AssetBundles / Addressables workflow, however at the expense of Disk Streaming.

    Note that one drawback of this option is that it's now impossible to partially load APV data in memory since they are regular assets. This means that in multiple scene setups, the memory footprint is that of the full baking set instead of just the loaded scenes.


    This new optional code path can be enabled in the Graphics Global Settings in the new Probe Volume tab.

    APV disk streaming now supports a non-compute path in URP
    Disk and GPU streaming is now supported with all platformed that run Adaptive probes volumes.

    Probe Adjustment Volumes
    Probe Adjustment Volumes are an important tool at the artist’s disposal when fixing-up problem situations in probe-based lighting setups. In Unity 6, we have made some usability changes to improve lighting quality, ease-of-use and increase iteration speeds.

    Probe Adjustment Volumes: Workflows
    Automatic isolation of probes is a new feature, enabled by default when placing Adjustment Volumes. Now, probes which are not affected by the Adjustment Volume can be hidden when placing and sizing the volume. This should make it easier to see what you are affecting when working in crowded Scenes.


    Automatic isolation of probes is a new feature, enabled by default when placing Adjustment Volumes.

    Further to this, probe lighting data can now be baked directly from the Probe Volume and Probe Adjustment Volume components. This is a convenience allowing faster iteration and the ability to generate probe lighting data without needing to also compute expensive lightmap data.

    When placing Probe Adjustment Volumes, it is now possible to quickly preview your changes by using the “Preview Probe Adjustments” feature directly from the component. Iterating to find just the right setup should be much easier!

    Probe Adjustment Volumes: Override Sample Counts
    The new “Override Sample Counts” mode available for Probe Adjustment Volumes in Unity 6 provides users with precise control over how baking time and quality is distributed throughout the Scene. Now problem areas with noisy probes can be easily fixed-up by locally increasing sampling. This allows areas with challenging lighting conditions - such as deep interiors - to be quickly improved, especially when using the new preview features described above!


    With Probe Adjustment Volumes it’s possible to override the number of samples for a specific area

    Reduced light leaking through limiting noise
    When using multiple subdivision levels, one can use sampling noise to hide the visible seams. However, in interiors this would often cause light leaking issues because the noise could easily push the sampling position through a wall, resulting in overly bright or dark pixels.

    This improvement limits the direction of the noise in a cone toward the camera, considerably reducing the risk of light leaking when using sampling noise in complex environments.


    The amount of noise remains the same, but when the noise is directed in a cone towards the camera, there is significantly less leaking

    Known Limitations
    Adaptive Probe Volumes in URP do not support lighting normalization for reflection probes.

    Enlighten Realtime GI deprecation path notice
    Note that Unity 6 is the last supported release for Enlighten Realtime GI. You can find more details on our previously communicated deprecation path in the Update on Global Illumination 2021 forum post.

    More information about the previous 2023.x/Unity 6 Beta (2023.3) releases
    Here are links to previous requests for feedback, for the 2023.1 and 2023.2 tech stream respectively:
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2024
  2. PutridEx

    PutridEx

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    I downloaded unity 6 to test APV again, posted a lot in official APV threads in 2021 version until early 2023 releases.

    Still tons of leaks, especially due to dilation from my testing in this version.

    Interior with exterior lighting.
    With and without sky occlusion. Sky occlusion seems to cause weird light leaks with dilation, default sky samples. Tested high and low indirect/env samples.

    Frankly, I was planning on doing an extensive test and feedback, but the often slow downs, 'hold..' and eventually crashing while baking a very simple GI test scene made me give up. I can't dedicate as much time as I used to, especially since I don't enjoy it as much anymore.

    And from the looks of it all my posts in APV benefitted no one and were not heard.
    Not that they have to, just no point for myself.

    I expected vastly improved anti-leaking, but doesn't seem like it. I did my tests with thick objects, I can't imagine what the experience will be for people with planes and a large scene. Maybe the goal solution is adjustment volumes everywhere and a lot of manual work.

    Admittedly, I did not test the new features in adjustment volumes. Nor did I use them since I ended it early.

    Was baking APV only.

    Everything I said in previous threads still applies, some less so (leaking due to sampling noise) reduced, but still happens.

    Leaking in interior areas with lighting from exterior (dir light), is where APV biggest weakness is.

    The more indirect light there is in an interior (and generally), the more it'll hide all the leaking issues.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2024
  3. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    Yep, that is my impression as well, although in fairness I only played with APV a little bit.

    But.

    As a lightmap replacement it leaks too much to be used.

    As a light probe replacement, it solves the annoying authoring the old system had, but it doesn't solve leaking, which was also a pain point in the old system. And to mitigate it you need to manually author some stuff (why isn't this automatic? surely you can detect when something is inside geometry?), which take most of the benefit of the system away since the workflow becomes annoying again AND the issue still isn't solved.

    It would be one thing if the system was fully dynamic, then I could potentially accept these shortcomings for the benefit of having some sort of precomputed dynamic GI, but since that feature isn't here... I can't say I'm excited at all to use APV.
     
  4. jiraphatK

    jiraphatK

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    Same as the above post tbh. I gave apv so many chances but it's always disappointing with light leaking everywhere.

    Unity continue to push it like we should use it. Like common. All these fancy features, streaming, addressable, etc don't solve the main underlying issue of this solution.

    FIX THE LIGHT LEAK.
     
  5. bnmguy

    bnmguy

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    I agree with above. Also, the general appearance offered by the probe volumes is not good. Noise is pretty obvious, even with high sampling rates. This is a massive disappointment, IMHO, and I am not sure what exactly this solves in its current state. In a lot of ways, it is worse. Painful to use.

    Also, from the OP, in what world would this noise level in lighting be acceptable?? The lighting looks cheap and just plain bad. Def does not look like "new tech".
    Again, since Unity has never made a game (and likely never will), these types of things will never be solved. So long Unity. You could have been so much more...
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2024
  6. Onigiri

    Onigiri

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    impheris likes this.
  7. soleron

    soleron

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    As usual, some new things some dysfunctional or bad things.

    Whoever thought it is OK to carry all the baked scenes lighting data in memory with APV clearly was not thinking very clearly.

    Light leaking... how is this acceptable after so many years?


    Thanks for making even lightmapping more complicated. :p


    Request: Bring back the processing speed measurment.
    It helps benchmarking for optimization purposes.
     
  8. Jack_Martison

    Jack_Martison

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    My experience with new version in three acts

    1.png


    Screenshot_18.png


    Screenshot_30.png



    Okay, jokes aside APV has been significantly improved, HOWEVER it's not reached the final point yet, light leaks in the corners still there and no such thing that could fix it, as well as random bitchy light splotches that completely ignores adjustment volumes.
    Adjustment volumes have been improved SIGNIFICANTLY, I actually jumped like a kid when light leaks were removed in a snap of finger, but on the other side of room, somehow APVs again ignored adjustment probes showing light leaks along the corners.

    Sky Occlusion is broken, completely. When I turned it on and baked the light all I saw is huge light splotches, and that it.

    APVs needs finish touches, so adjustment volumes could control it in 100% of cases not 50/50 (Well, before it was 0 (zero) chance of fixing light leaks with adjustment volumes)

    Here before/after 2023 vs 6000

    Screenshot_33.png

    I personally don't mind placing it manually as long as it works consistently.

    Honestly, no idea why sky occlusion exists if Dynamic APVs in works, but in any case this solution shouldn't be static, we need dynamics, to maintain time of day or a flashlight in dark environment.

    P.S. The guy that came up with idea of showing probes inside adjustment volume deserves a raise, truly QoL feature.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2024
    Thermos and PutridEx like this.
  9. Jack_Martison

    Jack_Martison

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    So after quite a bit of heavy testing, I fired up almost all my old scenes, and results are somewhat promising!

    Before I will spam screenshots, huge warning to new users! (or like me who cluelessly tried all options, but got bad results in the past)

    Before you will make any bakes, make sure to setup same global volume in environment tab, as your main one! It will match skybox colors and ambient color!

    Screenshot_44.png

    It's perfectly hidden and never tells you about it, first sign is pitch black shadows, after bake you will get something like this:
    Screenshot_42.png


    So I played a lot, and must say it actually feels like solid feature right now, I field tested different scenarios with various wall thickness, but even with one pixel wall width, it's actually trying to sample something more or less appropriate.
    In some cases you can fix it with adjustment volume, I found that minimum width is 0.5, if it's less, you can save it with adjustment volumes, but not 100% guaranteed.

    Light leaks are not annoying as it used to be, in most cases everything fine and small patches or tiny dots can be easily fixed with adequate amount of view bias and normal bias (works as intended woah)

    This room had pixel thin walls, so obviously I couldn't fix light leaks along the corners, but after some edits in blender, no complaints here.

    Screenshot_37 (1).png


    So I thought, it's too good to be true, maybe dimly lit environment could be more challenging with pixel sized walls?

    Screenshot_52 (1).png

    Obviously, I'm not going to waste time adding thickness to all these walls, but such results with pixel thin walls are quite solid imo.

    I couldn't spot random splotches like it was before in such environments, but I'd be glad to see more scenes
     
  10. jiraphatK

    jiraphatK

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    You got me excited. So I tried APV again. I have to say that the new probe adjustment UX is indeed very nice improvement. But there are still some problems with it currently, there is no clear preview-bake button. And the memory usage stacks up higher and higher until you press global bake.

    As for light leaking, aligning walls to APV grid + adjustment is good now.
    NVIDIA_Share_ekW2jhWXQD.png

    But my problem have always been wall that is not aligned with APV grid like this

    NVIDIA_Share_cqONnqnXAD.png

    The problem is with these jagged lights here which is impossible to fix with adjustment volume.

    NVIDIA_Share_gv7ecfRyEa.png

    The only real solution is to reduce min spacing to something like 0.5. It makes these jagged lights smaller so it hide inside the wall mostly. **but like, I'm not sure if this is a sane value. The probes are so dense in debug view.

    PkcoqNOjUw.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2024
  11. thelebaron

    thelebaron

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    What is linked is rather involved, is there a simpler example than this? Ideally I'm looking for a way to call bake in the same way as its done using the editor inspector button(ie I dont want to mess around with changing settings) on the AdaptiveProbeVolume component, to use in batchmode in CI.
    What I've found is calling that same method through reflection doesn't yield the same results vs calling it in editor and making a manual build.
     
  12. Jack_Martison

    Jack_Martison

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2018
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    In my case, 0.5 was more than enough in many cases + normal bias and view bias tweaks, but not aligned thingy is kinda new for me, worth to show off here for devs.
     
  13. Jack_Martison

    Jack_Martison

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    But yeah those diagonal placement is worrying

    Screenshot_63.png
     
  14. Shizola

    Shizola

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    Have any of you tried the URP samples project? I'm wondering how they deal with any light leaking in the Japanese garden scene.
     
  15. jiraphatK

    jiraphatK

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    Just tried it, URP sample project uses light mapping.
    I copy the scenes and change it to APV.

    There is no unfixable light leak in the garden scene. everything is lined up nicely. (Baked at 0.5m spacing, no dilation, use half the memory compared to lightmap)

    There is this part in the oasis scene where I can't fix it with probe adjustment volume. (Baked at 1m spacing, no dilation)

    NVIDIA_Share_W9DMk4EQEA.png

    In this case, I don't bother fixing it with APV because light leak on the unplayable area anyway. So I just change this problematic wood mesh to receive gi from Lightmap instead.
    NVIDIA_Share_UaFub4H5Xc.png

    The oasis have some light leaks if you are near the wall and look along with it (due to view bias limitation).
    upload_2024-3-26_22-35-39.png
    More dense probe & adjustment volume should help reduce this particular leak but at some point, you have to accept the limitation. the tent sheet is super thin. there is no way around that.
     
    laurentlavigne and Shizola like this.
  16. PutridEx

    PutridEx

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    Most unity templates using APV are bright inside, thus most light leaking is hidden.
    As I mentioned previously, bright interiors and in general a large amount of indirect lighting will always hide the issue.

    The real challenge is in dark interiors with bright exteriors, where the interior is lit by for example the sun outside.
    See this old but in depth post for more details: https://forum.unity.com/threads/fee...2023-1-beta-tech-stream.1412454/#post-8889324

    Although old, most of the issues remain the same. The only difference is changed virtual offset, and less (but still very much there) leaking from sampling noise.
     
    laurentlavigne likes this.
  17. jiraphatK

    jiraphatK

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    Do you mind sharing the test scene or which asset you use so I can mess around with it?
     
  18. PutridEx

    PutridEx

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    it's a custom scene I don't have the project on PC but the assets were from the asset store, forgot the name unfortunately.
     
  19. impheris

    impheris

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    Pardon my ignorance... Unigine has this "Voxel probe light" where you don't even need UV maps and you can bake the light for a single object if you want, instead of the whole scene... Isn't this something like that? isn't this precomputed? can't you bake a small section of probes with independent samples to avoid those leaking and noise? really sorry if this sounds dumb that is what i understood on the info...
     
  20. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    This is an oversimplification and probably flat out wrong, but from a user perspective, APV is pretty much lightprobes + a version of the old LPPV system (where light probes are sampled per pixel or per vertex as opposed to just per object), but placement is forced to always be a 3d grid and you generally just control the density.

    So since they are a grid, you will inevitably have a probe that is inside a building and the next probe is outside the building. In between them it is interpolating from dark interior to super light exterior. It's doing some things to mitigate this, and there is one tool they give you to manually try to stop some leaks, but they are not enough.

    The baking doesn't need UVs (it is literally just a bunch of lightprobes) and I'm not sure if you can render a small sub-section (I think not), but baking them is generally pretty fast so I don't think it is necessary.
     
    impheris likes this.
  21. DavidLlewelyn

    DavidLlewelyn

    Unity Technologies

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    Thanks everyone here in this thread for taking the time to discuss your experiences using the Adaptive Probe Volume feature! Your feedback is most definitely valuable in helping us to improve the feature in terms of usability and stability.

    If you do have a bug where there is a memory leak, or a crash please, please submit a bug report so that the team can prioritise and investigate. Without the reports, it's very difficult for us to track, triage and prioritise these issues against the other incoming work that the dev teams receive.

    Regarding the reports of light leaking... We hear you. This is unfortunately one of the big challenges in probe lighting techniques in general and not something necessarily specific to the Adaptive Probe Volume implementation. If you have used a proprietary game engine utilising probe-based lighting, chances are that you will have encountered these challenges before.

    While not a perfect solution as it still requires manual work from the user, Probe Adjustment Volumes do go some way to mitigating the leaks. These can be attached to prefabs, so in modular world-building setups, they will allow some degree of automatic placement.

    Otherwise there are other techniques out there for leak prevention (such as radial gaussian depth), but I am not sure I have seen any games out there actually using these techniques in practice as they they come with significant additional runtime performance and memory costs which may not be immediately suited to the broad platform reach of Unity.

    If you feel these costs can be absorbed by your projects, and feel you'd benefit from additional tooling here, we'd love to hear more from you. Have you considered submitting a request through our product feedback portals?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2024
  22. laurentlavigne

    laurentlavigne

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    mahdi_jeddi likes this.
  23. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    Why? So years can pass by with nothing happening, except maybe some get added in the under consideration section and then they also stay there for even more years?

    The roadmaps are just useless busywork so users can feel they are somewhat in control so they whine less on the forums.

    What was the last user submitted feature request that was implemented? Was APV a user submission?
     
    SomethingElse12, Lymdun and soleron like this.
  24. soleron

    soleron

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    Usually roadmaps are requested by Executives. And teams create them, often just for optics.

    They rarely update or keep up with them except of course in the case of major features, but even in that case, (i.e. DOTS) they can often mean absolutely nothing.

    Roadmaps are often used to pacify users when a competing product is making huge strides.

    "See? We have this amazing feature coming up! We even made a video about it! Please do not jump ship."
     
  25. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    I'll have to try the new improvements soon, my last issue was with samples not being exposed properly which caused most leaks. After figuring that out everything was perfect (it's an indoor and outdoor scene).

    Now it seems it can be adjusted locally so i'll test it again soon. I plan on converting my project to APV.
     
  26. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    (note this is based on the old 2023.3 versions)

    i imagine most people first time encountered this. This is a scene with a whole outside world.
    image (1).png

    But it doesn't take a lot of configuration to resolve it, mostly just fixing samples and adding some correction volumes to the walls.

    image (2).png
    I'll hopefully see how this plays out in the updates soon.

    EDIT: updated images since they were discord links by accident lol.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2024
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  27. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    Is it resolved? Is the green area at the bottom of the bed and on the bottom of the furniture on the left intentional?
     
  28. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    That green is a collider. Post process volume i think.
     
  29. impheris

    impheris

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    Don't get me wrong but... Is the lack of shadows (red circle) intentional?
    I can also see wrong shadows on the ceiling... i'm guessing here but would that be a pretty low poly lightmap
    Untitled.png
     
  30. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    This is probably gonna come down to the density of the light probes.

    This is pure APV, not light map at all, so small detailed areas like that wouldn't get much detail. It would probably be fine with SSAO or SSGI in those areas.

    What shadows on the ceiling?
     
  31. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    Yes, but what about that patterned dark green area, isn't that a leak with probe that is inside the floor and is very dark / green?
    upload_2024-4-30_13-52-12.png
     
  32. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    Yes, it's a big box collider you can see the border of it. It's tinted green and everything inside it gets tinted green.

    You also see it on the blinds there.

    It's not part of the rendering at all, I just didn't disable colliders. The area under this room is another room, if there was leaking it wouldn't be green.

    EDIT: also you may note that door is blue-ish or green, that's because that wall is blue-ish green.
     
  33. StevenK_Unity3D

    StevenK_Unity3D

    Unity Technologies

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    Hi all, thanks for taking the time to contribute to the feedback survey so far. We're still seeing many responses flowing in, so we've extended the close date of the survey until end of May 2024.
     
  34. Crazy34

    Crazy34

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    Is it possible to use APV with the latest updates for a game where players can build (build their own houses in any way they want), with day and night and climate changes (like in winter all the objects around are covered with snow along with the terrain)?

    I am asking for confirmation.
     
  35. soleron

    soleron

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    APVs were meant to provide persistent lighting in large areas, and to allow different time of day light scenarios in an intuitive manner. NOT climate change simulation.

    Climate is a different thing and it is not something APVs were designed for.

    You will need to eather create your own climate system and use APVs and lighting scenarios to solve the lighting aspect of it, OR buy a ready made asset from the store.
     
  36. soleron

    soleron

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    The survey has an issue.
    In this question you say select all that apply but there can be only one answer.

    It does not stop someone from completing the survey but it may get you wrong results in that question.

    upload_2024-4-30_17-31-35.png
     
    andreiagmu likes this.
  37. impheris

    impheris

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    That one, looks really bad, i hope that is not the best APV can do...
    1.jpg

    It should be more like this (red circle and red box):
    2.jpg
     
  38. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    Oh thats because there's a hood covering those blinds. So the shadow extends a bit more than normal. I saw similar with baked lighting.

    Also note this is scene view, in game view the noise was more muted, possibly due to TAA or some temporal effect.

    I should have posted this earlier but here's the full color version (again no SSAO).



    For me personally the only issue is the shadow under the bed lacking, but i'm sure I can fix that on my next attempt.

    Personally I think SSAO will fix the area inside that shelf.

    For me personally the minor issues in smaller areas are worth it for the benefits to character rendering.

    Light mapping and old light probes




    APV Only (the blue light here is likely a leak, but I didn't take time to try to fix it as it was just a test)



    The best results is APV plus light mapping but due to wanting time of day transitions I want to move away from light maps.


    A slight scale back in lighting detail is a fine trade off for better character rendering in indirect lighting. Plus the added benefit of rendering taking only like a minute.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2024
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  39. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    They added an API for manual control of light probes so maybe you should look into that.
     
  40. impheris

    impheris

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    i heve not tried APV, i've seen some test videos for some users and imho i think it needs a hard work to improve its quality (i'm not even talking about leaks) or maybe all the videos i've seen are not really good, sadly i don't have time to test it myself.
     
  41. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    I adapted pretty quickly once I figured out the sample thing. At the very least it's not much more complicated than setting up lightmaps especially since you don't have to wait to see the results of changes.
     
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  42. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    Okay I'm going to outline the serious UX issues that will likely prevent less experienced users from engaging with APV properly. This is in the latest preview 6000.0.0

    While APV works great, the UX is still absolutely broken where even experienced devs get tripped up.

    I shouldn't need to toggle on Baked Global illumination/Lightmapping
    The setup implies you need baked global illumination enabled and lightmapping when you don't. And forces you to toggle Baked Global illumination to change various settings.
    1. You need to toggle baked global illumination on
    2. Then enabled Progressive GPU Lightmapping
    3. THEN you can bake with APV
    But this causes lightmapping to be included which is probably not desired. But if you turn off baked global illumination...
    apv.png

    It works perfectly fine! For the most part but we'll get to that.

    Point is I get indirect lighting from my sun light with no light mapping just APV and it looks like what I'm looking for!

    EDIT: I see now the current way to not do this is with a sub menu, but I argue it should just work with the baked lighting setting NO ONE is going to assume a sub menu.

    But...

    You don't get sky lighting without Sky Occlusion enabled
    The above image is good but lacks any ambient information. Thats strange.

    A user who just needs APV and has no need for time of day has no need for sky occlusion as the APV bake should do enough. But unfortunately it doesn't.

    So you turn sky occlusion on and...
    apvso.png

    Thats more like it! And while it's not a huge problem to have to enable sky occlusion it is a bit strange...

    I sort of understand why it's like this, sky occlusion works with the baked lighting in the scene, so you can have sky occlusion some light sources and it all still works. But this might be a little confusing if you're just concerned with static lighting with APV. And it might also be a bit confusing if you want sky occlusion

    Cause if you want just sky occlusion and dynamic lights (probably with SSGI), any baked light in the scene would probably look like errors to the user. And given downloading assets and stuff like that, the issue could rear its head randomly.

    Or a user may not intuitively understand that the baked lights in the scene blend with the sky occlusion.

    There's a setup to force these things for light mapping, but not APV. It should be possible to enforce sky occlusion only without baked lights in the scene regardless of setting.

    And it should be possible to get sky lighting without sky occlusion, a simple toggle would be nice. I understand why it's not possible at default, probably cause of scenario blending workflows. But at the very least it needs to be clearer that sky lighting is not included without sky occlusion.

    But also...

    Because of the jank UX if you want APV only you can't toggle baked or mixed lights.
    Despite having perfectly working APV configured the way I need I cannot adjust my lights properly.
    upload_2024-5-6_1-48-36.png

    The baked and mixed settings are just disabled. I have to enable lightmapping, then remember to turn it off in order to just change the way some lights work. Thats absurd.

    This causes a hole lot of unnecessary confusion which is probably why some of the feedback from your survey is honestly not valid cause users can't currently fully understand how the system works.

    For most users it's likely extremely confusing what works and what doesn't.

    There's also some use cases that's broken atm.

    You cannot use skyocclusion and lightmapping
    (below is not my image but Saniel's who i was helping)
    broke.png

    Somehow it just breaks, and given the former issues of people thinking lightmapping needs to be enabled to use APV plenty of people probably thought it was broken.

    Now this is probably an un usual combination which is probably why it's broken like this. But I can see a scenario where someone uses lightmapping in extremely specific areas of the map. The above image the objects are disabled on the lightmap. so they're rendered with APV and thus inherit the broken ness.

    Additionally, you can switch back to CPU lightmapping and APV won't disable, which seems to cause a crash.

    And while I currently don't plan on using sky occlusion there is one issue that should be addressed.

    Skyocclusion on URP only works with flat color ambient color or gradient
    Now this is probably not a big deal since a lot of sky assets use gradient. And I also imagine the reason the current skybox hasn't been updated to work with this is cause you guys are probably working on porting HDRP sky to URP in some form. Cause this works in HDRP sky.

    I'm just gonna say, there really needs to be a solution, cause sky occlusion can work wonderfully but people may not intuitively understand "my time of day system just needs gradients". If there's not much to do until the port at least communicate this more generally.

    Cause it can be easier to setup than people think, or the UI tells them.

    For anyone wondering here's an example with APV sky occlusion only in URP using Cozy Weather, and RadiantGI.

    EDIT:Okay video fixed



    APV is great but the UX severely betrays it.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2024
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  43. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    Im so glad i found this thread. Ive been trying to use urp and had light leaks for like 18 months. Everyone and their dog has given suggestions. Even logged a bug and got told despite 99% of the settings being what unity picked when converted from built in to urp that *I* had picked the wrong settings and well without telling me whats wrong. Silence.

    its not just me. You have no idea the relief.

    now. I did manage to fiddle and get "better" results but i also ended up writing a system that on not being visible it disables all children including lights, and while now it is dark where it should be and light i now have some awful looking lights and no idea whats wrong.

    Im not a lighting expert. but built in worked exactly like human brains expect.

    thank you
     
  44. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    Light leaks is less a settings issue and more a setup issue.

    Be it scene construction like very this walls or not using the corrective features. Even not using a low enough pro distance.

    Like light mapping there's just stuff to consider and get a sense for to avoid problems.
     
  45. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    it maybe a fair bit me, and ive never said it wasnt, but finding a group of others who are/have fought the fight is reassuring because there seems to be a lot of people who will happily tell you its your own fault, but not be able to tell you how its your fault..eg how to fix it.

    although tbh maybe i need more awake juice, but, most of those are valid words but dont make sense in that exact order, and while im usually fairly good and flexible as I am atrocious at grammar and spelling, but, ive done the unity lighting course, and it hasnt helped 1 iota, having only used built in RP before, I had no issue getting the lighting i wanted..
     
  46. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    Yeah it's a different setup, like light leaking with light maps you have to understand the why to avoid it properly.

    If you have issues feel free to post and I'll try to help.
     
  47. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    So, I have a fave test spot, my built in RP lighting looked like this (the player can pick up a light source to solve the complete black btw, but.. its part of the challenge)



    initial view in URP (actually looks way brighter on my screen is darker when grabbed for some reason)



    so while its dark, this is 2 parallel corridors, to the left are 2 rooms, and to the right is a room.. beyond the far wall is another corridor, corridors dont have lights.. at all. So zero lights should be happening, and this was it on a good day.

    Originally the scene was made with assets from the store (decrepit dungeon) so walls were well a wall, as you and i think of them iRL, eg looked like made out of breezeblocks. But people said my lights were leaking cos the walls were touching and the ceiling/floor was touching and the arches which lit up like christmas trees, and so, I remade it all in probuilder (cos i suck at blender), and now every room/corridor is the inside of a box with various holes to get in/out cut out of it. Much as I did all that, it took a few days of hassle, actually it had zero effect on the lights but now walls are per room, and theres an air gap between rooms and corridors.

    I even ended up having to write some code to hide all contents of room when its not visible.. so it turned the lights off/on because culling was not culling lights, and half the problem was walls were being culled but not the lights behind them, so the lights could shine through

    Now, combining a few comments, i have gotten somewhere, but, part of me has no idea how i was supposed to know to do a whole pile of things when i ran a converter that said it would convert it.. now i have yet another issue.. Ive been trying 18 frigging months, dev has halted because i needed the extra fps, to add more to the game and have it playable, so yes, currently i have dark spots where i expect, but a few where i dont, but now i get this...




    Im having lights turn off despite no reason to, so you stand in front of a light and turn a hair and the light just goes black.. and your actual player light also stops bouncing off the walls etc so now its blackity black and shouldnt be, or, like above, random lights dont light they have this pale waft of light but dont light properly, and i cant see why, previously all my lights worked just fine in built in, now, like this one (right), it looks terrible.. and absolutely nothing makes it light like the light should.

    the up hill struggle to get all this working is rediculous.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2024
  48. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    The first image didn't load, but the second image looks like there's no light baking at all. Like that's not light leaking that's the light mapping being completely borked. But it seems to solved that.

    Also debug modes are your friend, are you still using lightmaps or are you using APV? Using the rendering debugger is crucial. Like the below baked lightmap view.

    Screenshot 2024-05-06 072958.png

    Screenshot 2024-05-06 072917.png

    As for the light flickering, that one can depend, but it sounds like light culling, or maybe you have too many lights affecting a single object. You said you modified your assets in probuilder, are these assets combined?

    A single surface can only have I think 8 lights affecting it (depending on settings, so if your lights are very large or all your objects are combined that could be an issue. You might also want to check the lights settings to see if it's marked as "important".

    One possible solution is enabling forward+ and seeing if the problem goes away, if it does then the number of lights is the issue. And you can keep using forward+ for try to solve the problem.
     
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  49. bugfinders

    bugfinders

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    Oh, target is webgl - so, it has even more limitations :D

    it shouldnt be number, because no, each corridor, room and even the joining chunks between some of them are separate.

    as an example

    upload_2024-5-6_12-48-40.png

    this room has 2 lights.. the light to the right is a world away and has no way to shine into the room come what may.
     
  50. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    There's a way you can double check. One of the debug modes is for lighting complexity.

    Screenshot 2024-05-06 075444.png
     
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