Feedback Friday #76 - August 23-26, 2019

G'day everybody!

Want design feedback for your new game? Then you've found the right thread! Feedback Friday runs from Friday to Monday every week.

What To Show

• Minimally Viable Product (MVP) - Core game play > everything else
• How To Scope Small (Unity tutorial)
• Post a link to a playable game, preferably WebGL. If you don't have a playable game, post something substantial, not just text.

How To Ask For Feedback

• Be concise.
• Specify what you want feedback on and what you don't.
• Resist the urge to write an immediate defense to feedback. Take the time to understand their points. Remember that your friends here are taking time out of their busy schedules to help you for free.

How To Give Feedback

• Be positive. Every game has some redeeming quality.
• Focus on the design, not the designer.
• Be specific and constructive. Don't like something? Explain why.

Let the feedback begin!

 

Let's get this show on the road!

Here's a small demo of my upcoming game, Shadows of Earth. It's all about full-on space combat with very responsive, 6DOF fighters.





It's a zipped Windows build, not a WebGL because I realized too late that linear color space is not supported, and besides I'm using a few custom post effects that are probably not very performant just yet.

Look and feel

Reason I chose to focus on space combat is because a) I like it and b) I think a lot of space games don't do a great job, they are all about aiming a UI widget at something drifting lazily around, rinse, repeat. I want the player to feel like the ship is their body, and feel in their bones everything that is happening around them, almost like 'hand-to-hand' space combat. I have gone for an open-cockpit view to give a lot of visual feedback as well as well-lit environments, plenty of sound effects and expressive enemies (at least the fighters, so far!). The player should feel vulnerable and under pressure (in a good way) at all times.

Along with this, the story of the game will be designed to make the player feel strongly impacted emotionally by both the positive and negative aspects of battle - though story isn't in the demo yet.

On that note, the first thing I would like feedback on is, what part of the demo presentation is most boring (besides placeholder assets, of course!)? What general emotion/feeling do you get about the game from the gameplay?

Wing Commands

In this game you will set off from your base with 1-4 wingmen. Similar to Mass Effect, you will be able to aim your wingmen at specific targets by aiming at the target and pressing 1-4 keys. (In the demo, there's just one, so you command them by pressing 1).

Second thing I'd like feedback on is, does this type of wing commands like a good idea, or will players probably just ignore it and go solo? Managing wingmen (during combat and between) will be a significant part of this game.

I know there's not a lot to go on with this demo. If it helps, a big part of the game in the coming weeks/months aimed at driving the 'strategy' element will be big targets such as capital ships with different subsystems, enemies with very clearly differentiated roles/behaviours, and enemies that move loosely in formation (giving types of targets that are differentiated and concentrated spatially). There will also be a lot of vocal feedback from wingmen that provides you with incentives to direct them during gameplay.

I haven't gone with a freeze time/overhead/strategy view (like House of the Dying Sun for example) because I don't think it meshes with the fast-paced, first-person gameplay. I haven't found an example of any fast-paced RTS/FPS hybrid game (in space or anywhere else) that really seemed to work as a function of that combination rather than one of the two.

Anyway, I wish I could have put up a demo that was more distilled in the elements that I'm looking for feedback on, but it was a bit short notice. Hopefully it's enough, and you'll have fun playing

Any other feedback or comments you have will be much appreciated!

Looking forward to trying out other people's games too!

 

G'day folks! If you've got a prototype and you're not sure about something, we offer free playtesting and feedback here on Feedback Friday!!

I'll see if I can strip down my demo and put up a WebGL sometime today so we can get something happening here. In the meantime, go ahead and plonk a link to your prototype on this thread. We're counting on ya!

 

I'd hoped to have get a WebGL build up for testing today, but alas, I've run out of time.

So, here's a video:

This is Dr. Yond's Zombie Experiment. You play as the giant floating brain (Dr. Yond), which is essentially your mouse cursor. Any zombies on the screen chase you incessantly; that's your only means of controlling them. They are energetic but stupid. Your goal is to lead at least one of them safely across the level. There will be lots of hazards — such as falling too far — and it's expected that you will be constantly losing zombies, as well as gaining them (by leading them to chew on NPCs, which then transform into more zombies).

This is all done for the Mouse Movement Jam, which stipulates that the only control input can be mouse movement (not even mouse clicking). I hope I've come up with a weird but fun way to play what we might call a "flocking platformer."

I'd love feedback on the design, especially on how to make fun challenges that are likely to kill half your zombies — but more or less depending on your skill at maneuvering the brain. Zombies automatically jump over gaps, so the trick in controlling them is getting them to jump when they should, and climb down or go another way when that's safer... Any level design ideas (or any other feedback) is very welcome!

P.S. Development log is at the bottom of its itch.io game page.

 

@JoeStrout you're becoming pretty prolific with your ideas/prototypes! Seen quite a bunch of them in Game Design lately

I think the concept definitely has potential. Just looking at the video, I think the biggest hurdle will be to prevent it from becoming a sort of 'late feedback' input system, like a mouse drag that doesn't quite get a grip. On this note, my first suggestion would be to include direct physical interactions between the brain and the surrounding environment that influence the success of the zombies. Some examples might be:

- Interacting directly with mechanisms ahead of the zombies, such as a door that opens for a few seconds before slamming down (making timing essential) or jamming the brain into some space to stop a rotating obstacle threat.
- Holding up physical objects for the zombies to cross.
- Removing enemies up ahead by interacting physically with them/objects around them.

To do this, it might be necessary to slow the zombies/increase the level size so the player has more time, and perhaps even make the zombies move regardless of where the mouse is.

I think generally speaking, anything based around timing would be great for this kind of game as it reduces the need for direct interaction.

If you get a WebGL build up before monday it would be great!

 

@JoeStrout - Hey, is this related to your Lemmings/Bothans idea?

It might be more interesting if you can't interact directly with the scene but instead lead the zombies to interact with it. Maybe you need to lead one zombie to fall to its demise a pit, which causes a board to fall across the pit that the remaining zombies can cross.

Timing could be involved, too, such as getting your zombies across a street Frogger-style.

Or maybe you could lead your zombies to break down a fence that frees other zombies, replenishing your horde.

All in all, it's a great idea. It looks like it would be a lot of fun to design all kinds of interactions and play through them. I want to play this game!

 

@Billy4184 - The wingman controls are the best part of the game. More fun than commanding companions in Mass Effect, in fact. I can imagine setting up situations where directing wingmen might be almost mandatory, like if you have to hit two targets at the same time or coordinate attacks in other ways.

The mouse controls feel a little sluggish to me. But it may be that I didn't know whether to expect more of a Wing Commander space sim experience or a Starfox arcade action experience. Joystick or gamepad control would be nice, especially if you're going for more of an arcadey feel.

The tutorial level is fun to play. If you can add more narrative elements, it might make it feel even more engaging and purpose-driven.

Level design-wise, can you engineer scenarios for drama, like flying through the last-minute explosion of an enemy ship? There's a lot of potential for cinematic-style experiences like that.

 

@TonyLi thanks for playing! I have an unexpected amount of free time this morning so I'm putting together a WebGL that's something more of an MVP of wingman controls with more basic assets.

Do you think that the first person action would conflict with the mechanic of directing wingmen? If you're focused on a target it may be hard to keep aware of the bigger battle.

I'm still trying to find the right balance with the controls, where it feels physical but extremely responsive. Definitely will have gamepad/joystick support in there.

Definitely more narrative elements and chatter will be coming in the game.

Good point about cinematic experiences, that's what I hope to achieve (without cutscenes). I think the problem with a lot of space combat games is that it's reduced to a sort of interaction between UI elements rather than stuff being in your face.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

I don't see a conflict. Balancing that would be a big part of the fun.

Exactly. Maybe you have to make a tight turn through a tunnel that prevents you from shooting the target until the last second, things like that.

 

Not consciously, but now that you mention it, there are some similarities...

That's the sort of thing I was thinking, too.

That's a fun idea! I had thought of moving platforms, but hadn't really considered this. Quick prototype:



Thanks for the ideas!

 

You guys could be right about this, but I do think there's a crucial question for this type of game. Let me rephrase my original feedback.

How will you ensure consistency between what the player does with the controls, and the response they get in the game? This would be necessary to ensure meaningful progression of skill, and to keep players coming back once the 'hey, that's cool!' factor wears off. If the zombies are a bit chaotic in the way they respond, it could well create the wrong sort of tension between the game and the player.

Just to be clear, when I mentioned interacting with the level, I meant still just using the mouse. Perhaps with a kind of 'squishy' collision between the player 'brain' and elements on the screen.

Still, I do see the benefit of keeping it focused on the zombies rather than the player character, so you may well be on the right track there.

 

Hey everyone, here's a WebGL of a more focused demo of the wingman commands, with everything non-essential ripped out.



My main questions are:

1. Does it seem fun?

2. Do you see any potential problems or frictions arising from the combination of wingman commands and first person combat? For example, keeping track of the progress of wingmen on different objectives while pursuing your own targets, and the fact that you don't have 360 vision in cockpit to see the overall battle.

It's intended for the command system to get more complex if necessary, but I wanted to start with a fairly basic system.

Cheers!

 

@JoeStrout - I'm sure you have lots of system things that you want to implement, but I'd love to see more level design stuff, like maybe a seesaw board that starts down on the left. As a zombie crosses the midpoint it swings down on the right, blocking other zombies from using it until you can get it to swing down on the left again. More of those kinds of interactables might really prove out of the concept. And a WebGL build of course!

@Billy4184 - Nice! It's more fun to have all 4 wingmen. I see no problem with wingman commands and first person combat. It works great. Could you add a quick way to recenter the mouse, say a RMB click or something like that?

 

I played the game for about 15 minutes. Haven't read any responses, just the OP.


I found the lagginess and floatiness of the mouse controls cumbersome to get used to, to the point that worrying about wingmen orders is simply out of the question, at least at for me. I have never played games like this, so take that into account, but my intitial impression is the controls don't seem like something I could get used to without tons of hours of practice.

I brought my ship to a hault and just killed enemies from outside their range. That was too easy. Consider increasing enemy sight range, or make enemy UI detection some kind of powerup with some sort of tacticcal consideration to use. Like you send out radar pulse to detect enemies, but that will make them detect you, or reduce your shields. Something liek that.

I think before any wingman control business, I'd make sure the controls are tight, player can handle a certain number of enemies on their own, then increase enemies beyond what player can manage and use wingmen as strategic "blockers" to add a bit of strategy on top of the dogfighting.


Command system I would keep to simple submenus you can reach by 1 and 2 keys. Like, 1-all, 2-cycle group A or B. Then 1 again to attack, 2 to regroup. Just simple stuff you can easily do on the fly.

My thought process for that is because I imagine the dog fighting with space physics could use up all players brain resources alone pretty much. Especially with more dynamic enemies.


Given the frequency of asteroids, i'd consider increasing FOV significantly. Also boost mode feels unsatisfyingly slow.

One more suggestion -- consider placing asteroids/other obstacles by hand, or with some kind of irregular pattern. This way you'll get natural little areas player can discover for some kind of positional advantage. Currently, I just flew above the asteroid field to avoid them. I see no reason not to, especially as its easy to kill enemies from outside their range.


Couple brainstorm factors to consider which could tie into game feel/balance:

accuracy of lasers (no wind resistance to cause turbulence, but maybe little asteroid are activating the shields which cause wobble on the ship)

rate of fire

length of continuous fire before cool down is necessary

tying rate/duration of fire to shield charge

enemy detection require some tactical trade off

distance enemies can detect and engage you from

using full 3d space for enemy placement, not just a horizontal plane

using callouts for enemy detection rather htan UI: "*worried voice* Nielson, bogey at 2-9!" 2 being which quadrant they are in assuming player is origin, and 9 being clock position. Maybe there is actual method for this, but just an example. Idea here is to have player learn some type of jargon to get them engaged with the game more.

 

I don't know if it was your intent, but the game made me giggle.

As for challenges, one of the first thing I thought of was to create an area with a number of NPCs, but there is a serious risk of losing your zombies if you don't play through well. Do you go for the army increase or let the NPCs live? Would have to be off the main path somehow. Basement, sewer, subway perhaps?

On the road/Frogger idea: A drawbridge. Time the zombies for when the bridge is down... or time it even better to jump to a passing ship, eat a crewman, and jump again.

 

Thanks for the ideas, everyone! I won't be able to implement many of them before the deadline, but I'm definitely listening and taking inspiration.

I managed to get a web build up; you can try it here: http://luminaryapps.com/temp/DrYond/index.html

Please give it a whirl! Can you get all three zombies past the parking garage? (Game will offer to reset a few seconds after your last zombie dies.)

 

Great points there @BIGTIMEMASTER !

Regarding the ship controls, I think I will start playing a variety of other games, because it seems I have gotten used to it too much. I will be adding a mouse cursor and dead zone which should help getting acquainted with it.

Yes sub-menus is the most likely option for wing commands, Freespace style. I thought it was best to start off with a very simple one to see how far it can be pushed, and to get as much variance as possible as a function of a situation rather than the number of different commands.

It has occurred to me that a) I want close combat and b) it's easy to pick off enemies far away. I planned to add a fair amount of (lack of) accuracy for that, and possibly range-based damage.

Tying weapons to shields is an interesting idea with good possibilities!

I have thought about making enemy detection not just a question of visual range, I know the starfox games use exponential scaling and that's something I might try. Probably do the accuracy thing first and then see how it goes.

Absolutely the battle space will be more 3D, it just helps right now with keeping an eye on what the AI is doing.

I have plans to add a lot of voice feedback, unfortunately don't have a lot of material right now but it'll be a key part of situational awareness.

Thanks for playing and the great feedback!

 

I tried the wingman game. Pretty neat!

It's hard for me to tell. I tend to suck at these sorts of games. I even wrote one once, and I sucked at that too.

In my test, I initially just sent my wingmen out at things that looked like targets. I'm not sure how they did. Eventually I got bored sitting there, and tried to throttle up. I'm not sure if that worked; I didn't get any significant sense of movement, and there was no speed indicator on the dash or HUD that I could see. I did however eventually get close to some black things that fired at me, and I was able to blow a couple of them up.

I'm still not sure whether my wingmen got blown up, or just ran out of things to do. They seemed to keep saying "affirmative" when I pointed at targets and pressed 1-4, but I'm not certain that they don't continue to do that even when they're gone.

Cockpit fighting games are hard. Directing the wingmen seems relatively easy... I mean, basically whenever you're pointing at a target anyway, you can just smack 1-4 to call in some help, right? I don't think that makes it significantly harder.

 

Did you press C for controls? The Tab boost should definitely give you a feeling of movement. However I do understand from yours and others comments that the controls need to be tighter and movement more responsive.

Yeah there's no feedback like "Objective completed!" yet, and I'm still wondering what type of HUD information might be appropriate for keeping on top of things. I didn't have a lot of time to put the demo together, and there's a bunch of stuff I wish I could have had in for testing, but I wanted to make sure at least something was up here for my round of feedback friday!

Fair enough, it's supposed to end up more than that though. There will be different types of enemies that match up with different loadouts, as well as mission structures that call for using the wingmen in specific ways. The question I have is on the difficulty of maintaining both situational awareness as an individual pilot, and also keeping the bigger picture when controlling the battle.

For example, I think it'd be generally bad if the player had to maneuver the ship just to check on something about the wingmen, which then means they have to look for their target again. I think it's a balance of making it easy and making it not that important, in this case.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

I assume past the cars the level hasn't been finished yet?



Anyway, it's a lot of fun! The peppy animations really make it. It's satisfying to get them shimmying down rain pipes and jumping over fences.

 

Yep.

Thanks! Now if I can just get the right amount of challenge into a level, we may have something by next week (the end of the game jam) that's not a total embarrassment.

I did check out the controls, but I didn't notice or think to use Tab; I was just using W and S. I would suggest some instruments on the dash, showing thrust level and perhaps speed.

Totally understood! My game is in a much more raw state than yours. I appreciate the trouble you took to get a build up for us to play with.

Well, why not have mouse look? That's something most flight simulators do; with the mouse you can look around the cockpit and out side/top windows, which still doesn't let you see everything, but it's a lot more than just staring straight ahead. (It also increases the sense that you're really in a cockpit.)

Of course I realize you're using the mouse for flying. But maybe use a modifier key... e.g., hold Shift to look around while maintaining your heading.

 

Good point! Might be possible to set up a look-around that's not too jarring. Cheers!

 

I know its a little late but I've been at it again recently (especially this morning)... and been working super hard at school to boot.

I created these two models of missiles for a little project I'm working on. If you've seen the mouse flight stuff you know my art has been a bit... wacky. Not this time. I had some odd ideas about what a ship/missile/space environment asset might look like.

Well here's what I've got.

Would appreciate some feedback; though I know its nothing impressive. Still figuring out Substance painter. Its 3 am and substance doesn't appear to want to work...The server is down. Yeet for labor day weekend I guess.