Feedback Friday #130 - September 11-14, 2020

G'day folks, looking for a new perspective and some friendly feedback on your game's design?

No matter what stage it's at, or how big or small the issue is that you'd like some feedback on, this thread is for you! Feedback Friday runs from Friday to Monday every week.

What To Show

• Minimally Viable Product (MVP) - Core game play > everything else
• How To Scope Small (Unity tutorial)
• Post a link to a playable game, preferably WebGL. If you don't have a playable game, post something substantial, not just text.

How To Ask For Feedback

• Be concise.
• Specify what you want feedback on and what you don't.
• Resist the urge to write an immediate defense. Take the time to understand their points. Remember that your friends here are taking time out of their busy schedules to help you for free.

How To Give Feedback

• Be positive. There's something of value in every game.
• Focus on the design, not the designer.

Feedback Friday #129 is here.

 

Hey everyone!

This is my first feedback Friday and since I was planning to get in some public feedback soon I figured I might as well start here.



Introduction

I'm making an action roguelite in which the player and the enemys die in one hit. Because dying in one hit is harsh, the player gets extra lives and instantly respawns (like Hotline Miami or Katana Zero) and the run only ends when the extra lives are depleted. In the game world these extra lives are coins that can be used to pay the reaper to go away and are also used to pay for items. The player has to judge if an item is worth giving away extra lives, which I hope will lead to interesting decisions.

I'm putting together a vertical slice at the moment which has most of the content I was planning for it and now I want to make it better, more fun, fix bugs, etc. At the moment there are two different environments, a few enemys, two bosses and about ten different items.

Feedback I'm looking for:

• What I am looking to get feedback on at this stage are gameplay mechanics and combat feel.
• I want to create a game that is hard but fair. Fast but controlled. Where you can lose yourself in the flow of combat. A game you need to study and then execute what you learned.
• How do you think this version is doing in this regard?
• Please feel free to point out other important things as well.

I'm really looking forward to hear what you think!

Download:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-auzBn7osZcHwye1MqX0ffPo1IRuhsbp/view?usp=sharing

__________________________________

Some disclaimers:

• It's meant for gamepad use. Mouse & Keyboard works too but is still a little bit wonky.
• There is no tutorial at the moment so here are a few explanations:
  • There are two main attacks: a sword and a bow. The bow has 1 arrow at the beginning which can be picked up again. There are also two slots for active items with different effects.
  • You can only move to the next level when all enemys are defeated.
  • When they are all defeated the exits open and a chest with items opens from which you can choose one.
  • There are two ways to get extra coins (lives) at the moment. You can either give up taking an item from a chest and get a coin instead or you get a coin after each level when you defeated all enemys fast enough. So you can either play slow and safe or rush and maybe get an extra coin.
• The Soundtrack isn't mixed yet.
• Title screen art is a work in progress.

Controls:

XBox Controller (Recommended):

Move: Left Stick
Attack: A
Bow: B
Item1: X
Item2: Y
Interaction: RB​

Mouse & Keyboard:

Move: WASD
Attack: LMB or K
Bow: RMB or L
Item1: Q
Item2: E
Interaction: Space
Menus buttons have to be confirmed by clicking them with the cursor atm​

 

Hi,

Would you all please give me some specific design feedback on an RTS-lite prototype?

This is a rapidly-prototyped concept, barely held together with glue and yarn, so there will certainly be bugs.

I'm not interested in feedback on:

• Art (it's all stand-in art; characters aren't even animated)
• Sound (there is none)
• Story
• Specific control layout
• Specific level layout

I am very interested in your thoughts on the core gameplay loop, which is to build defenses around a central base while pulling levers to advance the game -- but the levers also unleash waves of enemies that attack your base.

The working story premise is that you're taking an elevator down an evil necropolis to stop the big bad at the bottom. On each level, you must pull the levers to enable the elevator to descend to the next level. I only mention story to give context to your gameplay actions. The actual story isn't important right now and will almost certainly change.

Instead, I'm interested know if this gameplay concept (but polished, with more content and more elaborate levels) would sustain your interest for, say, 30 increasingly larger levels, each unlocking more types of monsters and more structures to build.

Here are the playable links:

WebGL: https://pixelcrushers.com/misc/crypt_crawler_prototype/
Windows download: crypt_crawler_prototype_win_0_11.zip

The prototype dumps you into a mockup level that represents something in the level 5-7 range (out of, say, 30 levels), so it plays as if you've already gone through earlier levels to learn how to play. There is no easing you into the game. Right now, I'm more interested in learning if the gameplay loop is still fun at mid levels, not developing a progression of levels. The prototype has 3 levels that are progressively a bit harder than the previous one. (Tip: Don't melee; the player is barely strong enough to defeat a single ghost.)

The screen looks like this:



It plays best with gamepad:



But you can also use keyboard:



Thanks in advance!

 

Hi @Kaktuspiratgames -

I like the chill music. I'm not sure if you plan to replace it, but it's nice to listen to. I'm playing it in the background right now while I type this up. The pixel art is solid, too.

I played with a gamepad. If you're not planning to use the d-pad for anything, you could map movement to the d-pad also. Some people like to use the d-pad, especially for 4-direction and 8-direction characters.

Combat is mostly fair, but I have these comments:

• I like the fact that you only have one arrow to start.
• Since the gameplay requires some reflex-based action (unlike traditional roguelikes which tend to focus more on an almost turn-based type of strategy), the sword swing should be faster. If you're being attacked by two monsters, the swing isn't fast enough to get in the two hits required to kill both monsters, even if your fingers are fast enough.
• It's frustrating to lost all your progress when you die in a level. I realize it's a roguelike. Maybe I didn't play it long enough to develop reliable strategies. But you could lose players early on due to frustration.
  • You could make it a little more forgiving, even though it might make it a little less rogue-like. Maybe take a coin but retain the player's current progress in the dungeon.
  • Or you could introduce some more tactical or strategic gameplay that a player can use to compensate for slower reflexes.
• Minor at this point: Monsters would fairly frequently get stuck on corners.
• Very minor: It's strange to have to re-initiate dialogue with NPCs for every line of dialogue. I expected the 'A' button to continue immediately to the next line of dialogue.

 

Well done on getting feedback on your game, I think it's exactly the right time to do it.

I had a quick play with a gamepad. Movement and combat were fluid and crisp. The range on the sword feels just right, with enough of a margin so you're not thinking "..but I got that!" when you die.

The number of enemies feels a bit unmanaged, sometimes there's 3 coming at the same time and other times there's none for a good stretch. Maybe that's something I'd find easier once I got better at it, but with the one hit death it comes across as a bit unbalanced.

The snail attack I didn't see coming, I think it might be a good idea to prepare the player a bit for that. Unless dying is all part of the fun - I don't play too many roguelikes.

The bow is cool but it's not an easy weapon to use, as it fires only horizontally and vertically. With the speed of most of the enemies I saw there's not enough time to position the player and line it up properly.

Lastly the camera is kept centered on the player, so you only get to see max half a screen length ahead. I would consider giving the player a bit more ability to see ahead and strategize, at the moment it's all about reflex and timing of that sword swing. Maybe the camera could pan toward where the player is going, or be pulled back a bit.

Again I'm not much into roguelikes, but the amount of risk seems too much, at least at this point early in the game. For me personally, going back too many times to the beginning of a level in a game gives me that "what else could I be doing right now" feel. Maybe ramp things up a bit more slowly.

Game art looks quite nice to me. Looking forward to seeing how this progresses!

 

Really enjoyed this demo! Haven't played a strategy game in a while.

Overall the gameplay loop is very good, but needs a lot more direction and zing.
It's good because as soon as I realized what to do, the enjoyment went way up. It needs more direction though, as right from the get-go it just feels like getting chased around a map by a monster you can barely defeat, faced with a lever you are sure to die if you pull. And it needs more zing because even though it's a prototype, a lot of the game feels awkward. For example, even if the mallet swing animation is not important right now, what is important is the speed of it. The game pace and vibe has to come through even if there's no polish.

You mentioned in your post where the resources were and I did read it, but I forgot a couple of minutes later and still spent a bit of time in the game wondering how to get them. The rocks are bland and not obvious, I'd suggest some highlighting or an interaction prompt.

The rock blocks that you can lay down take up too much room imo. If these are for walls, they should be more like a stone tower.

The green square I'm not sure what is good for, I watched a swarm of enemies roll over it like it was not even there.

The archery tower is great, and what I mainly used, probably a bit overkill here!



A couple of things about building:

- I really like that you have to go around repairing the arrow towers. Fits perfectly with getting chased around, and forces the player not to bunker down and just run away once the fight starts.

- I would like to be able to remove something I've built and put it elsewhere, at least for a few seconds after building it. I put some stuff in the wrong direction by releasing the build button too quickly.

Overall what I liked best about this was the constant pressure to be moving as I was building the defenses. It makes the game feel more fast-paced and fun, like you don't have time to sit around making everything perfect.

Camera is perfect and I can definitely 'see the fun' in this game at this stage.

Demo bugs:
- Once when I died and respawned, the game was frozen (seems like timescale got stuck).
- If I've been swarmed, I can't restart because as soon as the restart timer begins I die again.
- At least once an enemy disappeared for no reason inside one of the rooms.
- I'd suggest pause/restart/exit menu at this stage as it just makes the process of testing easier.

 

Thanks! That's exactly what I was hoping. I know the implementation right now is intentionally super rough and buggy. Not that I intended bugs, but I didn't spend extra time fixing them because I want to make sure the core concept has proved itself first.

BTW, the green square should slow down enemies to 30% movement speed. The left/right trigger buttons rotate the menu in the bottom center to reveal other structures that you can build: a straight-firing cannon and a spinning blade tower. I think that should provide enough variety to encourage experimenting with strategies.

Thanks for the feedback on specific mechanics such as being able to move things after building them. I'm making a note of all of them.

Did you notice that the enemies have different behavior? (Ghosts go through walls, zombies mill around, skeletons go straight for the crystals) If so, did it make a difference to how you handled them?

Did you play past the first level?

I'm planning to introduce ~3 different resource types (stone, wood, & bone?), similar to traditional RTSes, where each structure requires different amounts of resources. Any thoughts on that?

Although I made the build for single player, the prototype project supports local co-op with a shared inventory. It gets a bit hectic when players are trying to coordinate actions, but it's fun in its own way, too.

 

I'll try those out, didn't notice.

Not really to be honest. The arrows fired through walls and since many object collisions weren't set up, so I didn't pay much attention to something going through a wall. I saw the ghosts and zombies as the low-risk 'continual nuisance' (in a good way) and the skeletons as the real enemy.

If you're going to create differences enemy types and you want the player to build reactively, I'd suggest pulling the camera back a bit and maybe increasing the level size, as I'm not sure there's enough time to see some enemies, think about the battle layout and put some defenses down before it's too late.

No, is the second significantly different? I did see two crystals but it looked similar.

Sounds good, maybe you can build a weapon at the start to take out a zombie and collect new resources from it. I think a fewer resources/build options and more level interaction and dynamism is right for this game, as it is far more fast-paced than a typical RTS where you spend half an hour planning every little thing.

I think this game is ideal for that, and is a great opportunity. Co-op is really coming up a lot these days with games like Deep Rock Galactic. This game is perfect because the players are physically in the game and under pressure, they are not just competing for management. It could easily be a sort of squad-based co-op RTS.

- One player could be a medic healing the others while they fight off ghosts/zombies and build the defenses.
- Players can defend different areas or enemies coming from specific directions on the map.
- There could be different characters which are more resistant to different enemies, changing the tactics of who does what depending on who comes through the door.
- Players could gather different types of resources which affects what type of defenses they are responsible for.

 

The level layout is basically the same. I started with the third level. The first and second levels are copies of the third level where I removed things to make second level easier than the third, and the first level easier than the second. In the second level, there are two crystals+levers and each lever opens a different gate. In the third level, each lever opens two gates in opposite sides of the map.

Thanks again for the very helpful feedback!

 

One other thing is to consider using a timer to increase pressure, the lever thing is cool but it also interferes with the pace of the game and makes it more like a turn-based thing.

I also think it would be a good idea to consider how to enable players to interact more one-on-one with enemies, maybe throwing 'grenades' or something.

 

Thank you for taking the time to look at my game and give me feedback @TonyLi !

I'm glad you like the music. I added that fairly recently and still need to properly mix it.

Absolutely!

This aligns with feedback I got from friends in the past. I will test this.

I'd imagine that playtesting a rougelike is a bit weird because it's partly about learning the game, the enemies and developing skills and strategies to get through. I absolutely agree though, that early frustration will lead to players giving up.

Do you mean by retaining the players progress in the dungeon that the player will not respawn when hit? So the coins would technically be a health bar?

That's a good point. I think that may be something I could solve through items. By adding items that allow for a more tactical playstyle players can tailor the experience themselves. I'm planning to do something with the arrows that lie around for example. Make them zap enemies, slow them, scare them away etc.
And then maybe some items that can act as traps etc. What do you think about that?

 

Thank you for taking the time @Billy4184 !

That's nice to hear thank you!

Yeah I agree. The amount of enemies is also wildly unbalanced across the levels at the moment. I think later on when the player has some items to defeat multiple enemies at once it should be fine, but in the beginning there shouldn't be too many enemies at once. What I want is to place enemies in a way that there's a good combat flow throughout the level.

Yes it could telegraph what it's going to do way better. It's mostly fine when you already know that but can be frustrating the first few times you encounter it.

I think that may also have to do with the way enemies are placed in the level at the moment.

That's a good idea. It's especially problematic when moving vertical at the moment. I will play around with this. Maybe I could even make the camera controllable with the right stick in addition to what you suggested.

I agree here. Rougelikes are usually a bit frustrating by nature, but it shouldn't be too much early on. I'm generally thinking about making smaller levels now. Then the setback when you die is smaller because there are less enemies between checkpoints. In general I think your feedback has a lot to do with level design and enemy placement. Since the general combat seems to be mostly okay, I think I will focus on improving that area next.

 

That's a good point. If coins were essentially just a health bar, that might not be punishing enough. Maybe the first few dungeons should simply be much shorter, like 3-5 enemies. Give the player some early wins to let them know it's possible. Then the next couple could have 7-10 enemies, etc.

That would help. Or maybe a shield the player can raise, or "bullet mode" slo-mo.