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FCC / CVAA discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by N1warhead, Jan 4, 2019.

  1. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    I think market economy should be the driving force not regulations. Though sometimes they are needed, for example cigarettes will be banned in public places in sweden. I like that, BUT, I think restaurants should be able to get permits to accept smoking on their outdoor serving, that way we get some market economy because those that like passive smoking can visit those restaurants.
     
  2. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Yeah which is why those games had less sales, had worse reviews etc, it WAS working, sorry. Especially in 2018. If you haven't noticed, inclusion was the biggest topic of 2018 in gaming.

    This is over-regulation of entertainment and it's complete madness. Not one disabled person has made an issue of this (me included) and now suddenly it's another potential stick trolls can use to hurt devs with complaints and cases.

    I hope the whole thing will get mostly ignored TBH because I don't really have the energy to do this and my game. But if I don't, someone can use that against me in harmful ways.
     
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  3. Antypodish

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    We not saying implementing accessible features are bad idea. But weighting the potential gain from game sales, against cost of implementing features should be measured. Because something is easy to do for one individual may not necessary be easy by others.

    Also, seams getting for granted, most of us here are using Unity, with packed of features and available assets. But there are full bunch of developers, which are not using Unity, and don't have such comfort, to implement what may be required.

    Here of course we can bring quote again from gamasutra, as per @angrypenguin indicated,
    .
    Leaving rest for vague interpretation, by either party of potential dispute (if ever comes to).
     
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  4. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    It's impossible to prove so they'd be fined. It's probably going to result in less comms from indies and more from AAA. Nice win for the big guys.

    Fork the indies.

    As usual.

    Even though indies invented and sustain the entire industry with new talent and innovation, since the beginning (which indies also invented).
     
  5. CloudyVR

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    noble attempt, but who establishes these bare minimums? Because now they ask me to become a disabilities expert and build all these great tools that everyone has their own opinion of. Where are the offocial guildlines and example templates? Or must i make it all up as i go? Sorry but that sounds like nonsense ..
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  6. Antypodish

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    On partially joke side, just make / add them, as you receive complains about ;)
     
  7. GarBenjamin

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    At least it is for chat and UI specific to chat at this time. It will likely grow to be all inclusive in time. But I still find it so odd... as others have mentioned... why is this something being required for games.

    I wonder if this could lead... down the road... to the game engines themselves being included at one point. Perhaps starting with collaborative features being required to be more accessible and eventually extending to full game dev support for those with vision & hearing disabilities. Maybe ultimately resulting in truly being able to simply speak and say create a tree or to implement all logic through voice. "Add a platform controller to the player gameobject. When the player and enemy1 collide decrease player health value by 15..."

    I support inclusiveness in game design & development in general I just don't support it being regulated. My current released game has options for 6 different monochrome color and grayscale in addition to the default look. And a very simplistic streamlined control system. Like I mentioned just baby steps is what I was doing already on my own. Lol

    I think it really should be clarified this expectation this requirement should be for the huge game companies and not for all of the games period. Absolutely if these tiny Indies and hobbyists want to focus on accessibility then let them do it but don't require it of them.

    I imagine like so many things it is a money driven thing. Games industry is known to be billions now so it is reasonable to expect more effort to be placed on accessibility for games pulling in massive amounts of money. But a blanket law covering everyone is unreasonable imo.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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  8. CloudyVR

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    Hand signalling is a form of communication (eg. Onward swat team stuff). I don't see an easy approach for complying with those who have no arms. But i can be sued..

    or can i specify in plain text "Arms required" or some other belittling nonsens?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  9. AndersMalmgren

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    I'm making a VR game with only support for tracked controllers. No way anyone thats remotly disabled will be able to play it. And if they are in a wheel chair they will not be able to pickup items from the ground etc.
     
  10. Moonjump

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    This website gives great examples. It is even split into basic, intermediate, and advanced. It is all very sensible, and far from nonsense.

    http://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com
     
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  11. Ostwind

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    Well... a person with no arms can still trigger actions with his feet, do a gaze selection, speak voice commands to trigger gestures, etc.

    It's not likely that a person without arms would play Onward or VR games but it's not entirely impossible either given how for example the new SteamVR allows any kind of controller mappings and custom controllers can be made.

    Wheelchair would not prevent it if their hands work as the ground could be set to any height along with the user height, or with a custom driver and controller the movement fully customized to their capabilities.
     
  12. CloudyVR

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    so if i follow their example (i see no c# code examples there), but i still get sued, my i sue that site for falsified or incompleteness in their guidlines?
     
  13. CloudyVR

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    fine, then require SteamVR to add accessible features. I dont want Steavr bindings if it means loopholes that someone my sue me for. Ill sue steamvr the next day if that is the case.
     
  14. Ryiah

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    Considering they won an award from the FCC (you can see it mentioned near the bottom of the page) I believe it would be perfectly fine to say you went with their guidelines.
     
  15. GarBenjamin

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    That's the one I was going by. Even the basics cover a lot though. I only focused keeping text very large (which was easy because the game is ultra low rez itself but I considered using different size for text at one point and ditched it), using brightness and shape instead of only color to communicate with the player as well as providing 7 alternate color themes to choose from for the gameplay side and streamlining the control so all in'-game activity should be very easy & intuitive after a tiny bit of play using only the mouse.

    It's good stuff it really is and I think far too many times people focus more on making games an art & fx showcase and don't even consider how all of that stuff might be perceived as a jumbled mess of confusion by many players.

    My next step will be to focus on the audio side of things. Every bit of text should have an accompanying bit of audio and likewise every important bit of audio should have an accompanying bit of visual (which of course is common in games anyway).
     
  16. Antypodish

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    @Ostwind while this is more about gameplay than communication, which is outside OP main point, but @AndersMalmgren point is, he would need change gameplay quite significantly to suit accessibility. Is not only controllers.
    For motor impairment person (as an example), actions like duck, or fast swing body/hand may not be possible.
     
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  17. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Who benefits from this?

    The largest companies. Only they can afford to be so "enlightened." As mentioned, this will only stymie anybody who doesn't have 100 million to invest in their next big game project.

    So the old dinosaurs -- half of them suffering from visible dementia -- have been duped again by the tricksters for a few pennies more.
     
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  18. Ryiah

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    Lawyers. :p

    Everyone has been working on the assumption that the big companies will implement these requirements, but if the fine is relatively minor and only applied once I don't see any reason why a company would necessarily bother implementing these when they could just pay the fine and call it a day.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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  19. CloudyVR

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    all text as audio!!!! Crazy. My game is around 300mb and that is easy to host on a server for cheap. But you suggest making my game many gigs in size for an audience i wish to avoid now. MORE ADDED COST IN FILE HOSTING. might make you happy, but i think it is purely criminal and top level stupid.
     
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  20. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Monopolization doesn't benefit anybody except a few who already have too many benefits. This is the oldest trick in the book -- prey on peoples good will.

    Anytime somebody starts moralizing in order to sell you something, that's a red flag. It is the red flag.

    No individual is above another. And certainly those individuals graciously empowered by the goodwill of others are not above others.
     
  21. Ryiah

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    File hosting is effectively free (outside of extremely high data storage and/or bandwidth usage but a game developer will almost never approach that). I legitimately can't remember the last time I had to pay for the storage my files occupied and while the bandwidth isn't free the limits are very unrestrictive even for basic plans.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  22. GarBenjamin

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    I completely agree it is cost prohibitive for most of us. That is what I said up there ^^^ before I can understand this focus for huge companies. For the rest of us just do what we can. It is just that for myself I focus on making games with much simpler visuals anyway and my whole game download is only 6 MB and already includes a good amount of speech (which still seems massive compared to 100KB Amiga game projects but that is a different subject lol) so if it makes the game a better experience if I record speech of all of the scrolling story snippets for example I am not opposed to that. Would it be a lot of additional time & work? Of course it would.

    Again my personal view is to "make an effort" and this was regardless of a regulation. I didn't even know about it til this thread. I was thinking it was just some extra value I could offer. So I am just "making an effort" in general and it will be ongoing but I have to choose carefully which things I can and cannot do because I am only one person doing this very part-time.
     
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  23. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    The wise thing to be done would be reallocate money from military over-expenditure to put into research to develop technology which will help further empower those with disabilities.

    You slap your kid upside the head every time they forget to say "ma'am" and where does that lead? You raise a monster that hurts puppies and grows up to be a serial killer.

    Moron's see the pendulum on one side, they don't like it, they swing it hard back to their side. Chaos. People who read books, pay attention, and have the humility to take a scientific approach to problems understand that the first thing to do is bring the pendulum to the center, as a start.

    This foolishness will do disabled persons no good and hurt many others in the process. Where ever you find a person in power preaching morals, you ought to grab them by the throat and demand, "What evil are you cooking up now, bastard?" If flimsy morality is all they have to sell, they are trying to rob you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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  24. hippocoder

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    So the result of all this:
    • America's Democrats get to have more power for whatever nobody else in the world cares about
    • Some politician got more money
    • Lots more games entirely disable chat for the American market to avoid being fined so 99.9% of people suffer rather than 0.01% people actually affected that actually bought it, that actually cared to even chat.
    WTF is with this rationale? It would've been way more effective to be given a tiny tax break for passing inclusion (we do have tax breaks similar already so it's a proven thing not an an unknown).

    You'd have thought such a inclusive move would be designed around positive reinforcement (a technique 100% effective) instead of just punishment, power and drama.

    I expected way too much, didn't I?
     
  25. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    The result of generations raised on John Wayne and a culture that says, "you are the most important thing in the world!"

    A country with the collective wisdom of a bratty, spoiled child. I mean, just look at our number one representative.

    Sorry, I'll go work now.
     
  26. AndersMalmgren

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    Yeah, but what about picking up loot from the ground, ducking behind cover, etc, etc. Also Onward is a pretty arcady game, in our game or other games like H3VR you do all the actions yourself. I cant see a disabled person reload a revolver, at least not at a speed that makes him competitive with the rest of the people on the server.

    edit: Not saying devs should try to make their game accessible, just that some games are not ment to be accessible by their nature.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  27. Joe-Censored

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    So if your game included text based communication, that was fundamental to the game, you may be in violation because the visually impaired cannot access that feature. You then don't include any text to speech or other accessibility methods for the visually impaired for artistic reasons, because your game also includes important audio elements such features would obscure. Your game as art is now possibly illegal.

    Your last part is dead on. We actually won't know the extent of the law for sure until some complaints actually get filed, we see what the FCC does with those complaints, and finally we see any case law out of the courts which may result. Right now everything is just conjecture without seeing how the law is actually applied in practice.
     
  28. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    And the only ones who can afford to sue for violations against this law are the big companies who are benefiting from it, you know.

    Is Joe-Censored going to sue Capcom because they violated the law? No. Takes too much money. Will Capcom sue Joe if he makes a game that they think threatens them in any way whatsoever? Yes.

    Goddammit I need to find my pitchfork.
     
  29. GarBenjamin

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    This is why despite political stuff being frowned on here it often is the very heart of things. You describe the craziness that has been going on here in the USA the past several years very accurately.

    Across the board we have tons of people pushing for this and that. All in the name of not excluding / offending some group of people. That in itself is understandable but often there is no recognition of burden and disrespect shown to everyone else when pursuing some of these things.

    And I don't mean it to make light of anyone suffering with a problem of any kind. Like I said I am for making an effort but not for all of this campaigning and moaning & groaning and cutthroat approach they take. Making laws for everything is not the answer. I agree completely incentivized approach makes much more sense.

    EDIT: I should clarify I am thinking so I make a tiny multiplayer asteroids or space invaders like game with a simple text box for messaging just as an experiment.... release it and this is subject to this regulation? Lol In this context it seems very harsh.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  30. Sorry, I don't look at a piece of crap-metal or a pair of pliers as art, I don't look at a VOIP or text chat feature as art as well.
     
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  31. Joe-Censored

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    Regulation of public spaces is a reasonable role of government even libertarians are likely to acknowledge. As far as market forces, there are simply too many people today who are of the belief still that top down control is generally better than letting the market decide, that decisive action on the behalf of some perceived marginalized group is better than inaction waiting to see what some innovative start up does to help that group.

    That is not my understanding of how this law works. You don't need any money. You file a complaint with the FCC, and the FCC uses tax payer dollars to fund the entire investigation, and will then come to its own conclusion (which may be a fine for example). The game developer would then need money to fight the FCC if they disagree with their interpretation of the law, which may be with the FCC directly, or taking the FCC to court. The later may require significant money for lawyers.
     
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  32. Joe-Censored

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    Well neither do I. I look at the game as a whole as art. Take the old game Myst for example, with its revolutionary visuals for the time. It is unmistakably art.

    Imagine that game again with some computer generated voice describing everything in the scene to the player because some government regulation said that the visually impaired couldn't access the game otherwise, making the game as originally released illegal. It is not the same game.
     
  33. hippocoder

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    Works here in the UK game industry. We get tax breaks for ensuring it is inclusive, ensuring some or all of the game is set in England, and ensuring staff has a % of people working in this country, instead of punishing a studio that might've outsourced all it's work.

    That's a tiny example, of the many tax breaks offered for people who play nice, and believe me, everyone takes that little bit of extra effort to try, and the tax break often covers the cost of doing so. Everyone wins without a lawyer in sight (although a friendly accountant is helpful regardless!)

    ...and no drama, no politics and no losers. Positive reinforcement is always the best and first option to try.
     
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  34. Antypodish

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    That just makes me think, that we approaching times, where games genre can be finally monopolized.
    Big Game Studio -> "Lets just keep shooting down these small studios, before the start eating our shared market."
     
  35. Ostwind

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    They don't have to require Valve to do it in SteamVR because it's the game developers responsibility, however Valve could use this as market advantage to attract developers and implement the features to support better accessibility. The SteamVR input changes even might be semi related to this because they specifically mentioned disabilities.

    I know and its why I mentioned custom stuff because a lot is already possible even without gameplay changes in SteamVR.

    Motion can be multiplied so small movements in real life can be full range in the game. I remember some early VR games even doing this to aid seated gameplay or small play areas. For previous issues and for example to the SteamVR floor bug bunch of game implemented tele/remote grabbing options. Ducking and dodging is just headset movement or joystick/touchpad. SkyrimVR for example has crouch/jump as button actions on top of real movement.

    I don't think or even that the devs would need to change gameplay at all but just saying that even that would not be impossible or even too hard for basic things :)
     
  36. AndersMalmgren

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    I'm 200% positive to this regulation, just want to make that clear. People in general can't handle responsible smoking behaviours. For example, it's regarded good behaviour to not smoke on a out door restuarant when others are eating because it destoys the tasting experience. But people keep on smoking while others eat anyway, even when I have my two small kids with me. So I'm very very positive to this no smoking directive.

    Though to outright prohibit it everywhere is wrong, it would have been better if they did it like with alcohol, by default its prohibited but cafes and restaurants can seek a permit to be able to serve it.
     
  37. I really don't want to discuss hypothetical. Under the current regulation, the game is fine, the in-game communication (between people) is under scrutiny. If you allow people to chat in voice or in text, you need to provide accessibility for those features. End of story. I guess if you don't have problems with an overlay where you put the text chat you won't have any problems to put a text-to-speech overlay on the audio landscape for people who actually need it. You can allow people to turn it on or off depending on their needs. I don't see the problem here.
     
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  38. AndersMalmgren

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    That would completely remove the realistic angle of our game.
     
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  39. Joe-Censored

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    Independent developers are certainly going to be the most vulnerable if this law is enforced in the most draconian way it could be.
     
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  40. Antypodish

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    This would automatically introduce new problems. For example, I suffer for motion sickness, which is not uncommon in people. Technically, if law would be enforced already, I could sue many VR products / games, just because my disadvantage and VR could trigger my body reaction.
    But common, need really some common sense here ...
     
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  41. hippocoder

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    Prediction:

    Indie solution:
    If (country== Country.USA) DisableChat();

    Usually after complaints from trolls without any disabilities at all, out to just screw with you because you dared include a female character. Because you don't even need to prove it to get FCC to waste taxpayer dollars. Nobody wins from this, and it'll become clear over time.

    They don't even have the infrastructure to deal with the s-storm en route. I don't even see any evidence that the game industry at large was even consulted properly, or it was slightly even tested as a trial.

    People know what trials are, right? Probably not.
     
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  42. Antypodish

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    But you know, all that equality stuff etc.
    People can be very hippo-critique :p
     
  43. The game industry had 7 years to react/test run/raise concern. This law was adopted in 2011. I think the game industry had enough time to:
    - run a trial
    - raise serious concern if it hinders any kind of business
    - put lobbyists in place to pull out the industry under this regulation if it need to be
     
  44. Ryiah

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  45. hippocoder

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    Hands up who in this thread even knew it existed before this year? Seriously? It needs more than a waiver, it needs to be overturned. There is absolutely no point to it.

    Now other incentives to go beyond this dinosaur... that would be cool. Tax breaks would be a brilliant start, and being able to pay for an official mark would be awesome too - with those profits heading to charity.

    Instead of the government, well, not actually doing anything except being a thorn.
     
  46. GarBenjamin

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    I thought about the challenges some people face (mentioned that at one point in my rambling in the can I make a living as an indie thread) and was familiar with Inclusive Game Design but I knew absolutely nothing about this game exemption expiring and now FCC regulating communication features in games. Completely unknown to me before this thread. Which is weird, right? Kind of surprised we haven't heard about this coming all year long discussed everywhere.
     
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  47. Ryiah

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    There is no way I would be able to answer that because I know with my memory it would have been forgotten almost immediately. Just bringing up the GDPR in an earlier post took a minute or two of random searches until one of them clicked with my brain.
     
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  48. hippocoder

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    Well these days even a moth farting on mars will make front-page news so long as it somehow touches on: race, gender or disabilities.

    I mean I've gone my entire life having a pretty hard time with my disabilities and I've never moaned or complained once. Not once.

    In fact the thought that my own problems, my own disabilities will cause someone else suffering or stress to add compliance to their game really pisses me off. They don't know me. They don't owe me a thing. I don't want my problem to be someone else's problem.

    I would much rather all this be incentive and voluntary based not forced.

    I have self respect and pride. This stuff takes away from that and makes me feel bad. I don't want to be a burden and now I officially will be, and I'm sorry if my problems now are yours.

    Not happy.
     
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  49. Socrates

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    *raises hand*

    In fact, I already had that guidelines site bookmarked from when I learned about this. I knew the law had been delayed for games, though I had forgotten specific dates and didn't know it was coming into place now.

    Back when I found out, I had the initial concerns about, "How do you make video game play available to blind people?", but realized then it was only about communications systems.

    It'll take some time to shake out, but I honestly don't think the sky is falling. Hopefully everyone will take a deep breath, get over their panic, and be able to go back to working on games.
     
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