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FCC / CVAA discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by N1warhead, Jan 4, 2019.

  1. CloudyVR

    CloudyVR

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    The ol give up and quit routine?? not really my style..

    Besides my prototype already incorporates VOIP and is (was) nearly complete. I put forth months of blood, sweat and now tears to get it where it is today, So I respectfully choose not to entertain your suggestion, sorry.
     
  2. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    On the contrary plenty of people have that right depending on how you intend to publish your game. Want to publish to one of the consoles? All three of the major console manufacturers have it in their licenses that they can deny you if they don't approve of the content of your game. Same with Apple and their walled garden.

    It's not like this is the first time we've been told we have to comply to a new requirement from a government either. It's been less than a year since the EU's GDPR came into effect and that's just recent history. Just look at the requirements Australia has had for years. Or Germany for that matter. Doom was banned for years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Classification_Board#Video_games
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games#Germany
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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  3. CloudyVR

    CloudyVR

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    A disability rating system (similar to age restriction ratings).

    I mean, if its a disco strobe light simulator, then epileptics should be made aware and probably avoid it.

    I'm sure there are cases you could make pertaining to communications aspect that justify a restriction warning (and eliminating need to support certain compliance features)..??
     
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  4. FMark92

    FMark92

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    Since in this context you're voluntarily signing up with a publisher, you're voluntarily giving them the right to moderate your content.
    Voluntary compliance is very different from state enforced compliance.
     
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  5. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Only for the publisher-focused requirements. Government-focused requirements are not voluntary if you wish to sell your game in those countries.
     
  6. FMark92

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    Yes, that's what we are complaining about. Glad you could catch up :D
     
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  7. Ryiah

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    See I'm just waiting for the complainers to finally realize that we've had far worse requirements to deal with and at least this one isn't retroactive. The GDPR was a far more annoying one because it encompassed more than just our games and was retroactive.

    On a side note, having typed both "complaint" and "compliant" multiple times today, it never really occurred to me how similarly the words are spelled. With how many weird coincidences exist in language it starts to feel on purpose. :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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  8. FMark92

    FMark92

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    And? I don't see a reason to stop complaining and reasoning against it in there.
    Damn you for making me double check check my previous posts! :)
     
  9. CloudyVR

    CloudyVR

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    Can you be sued for making a super ugly and completely minimalistic implementation? I mean if I must cater to colorblindness, can I just have a grayscale mode?

    Or a magnifying glass tool for bad vision?

    I don't mean to offend but requiring each dev to come up with ideas on their own I'm sure will ultimately be offensive to someone.

    Or is that what FCC wishes for?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  10. Ryiah

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    We have color blind simulations so we clearly know the colors people with different forms have difficulties seeing. I have to wonder if we couldn't just cheat by having a post process that modifies the final rendered colors based on the form of color blindness someone has.
     
  11. FMark92

    FMark92

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    Damn right. That's my job.
     
  12. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    That's totally fine, because they are private companies and have the right to let what they want on their platform. The same way I have the right to make whatever game I want to. And if they make a wrong step the market will make them pay for it. The same way it is with me as a developer.
     
  13. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Freedom is severely overrated.

    And your bank account analogy falls down pretty quick. This is a government requirement. Break the appropriate money laundering or terrorism laws, and your government will reach into your bank account faster then you can blink.
     
  14. N1warhead

    N1warhead

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    So lack of colorblind support, or lack of visual representation of audible words are just as bad as terrorism? Hmmm, I never realized that until now.
     
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  15. Kiwasi

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    I've personally suffered more from missing subtitles then I have from improvised explosive devices. I am willing to bet that the experience of most human beings is the same.

    On average, lack of access due to disability causes more human suffering then terrorism.
     
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  16. Billy4184

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    I'm sure there are a lot of people who would be happy to debate you on that point.

    You seem to be confusing government authority with that of an individual or group. The government is not there to cater to one at the expense of the other. They are there to prevent one doing harm to the other, as is the case with terrorism or some other such thing. I am not doing harm by making my game the way I see fit.
     
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  17. Kiwasi

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    Preventing undue harm is at the very bottom tier of what a government does. You can also survive on a diet of bread and water, that doesn't make it a good diet.

    A good meal consists of far more then bread and water. And a good government does far more then just prevent undue harm.
     
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  18. FMark92

    FMark92

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    Never.
     
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  19. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    So tell me, what law should come to the aid of those who suffer terribly from not having access to my right kidney?

    This is not a public space we're talking about, a game is my blood sweat and tears. Nobody owns it but me, and I choose what to do with it.
     
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  20. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    That’s only true if you never release it.
     
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  21. Billy4184

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    The problem comes when the diet you would like to have is in your neighbour's house.
     
  22. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    No its not.
     
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  23. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    I'm quite serious on this one. You couldn't pay me enough to give up my various security nets and come live in America. I like knowing that of the world goes tits up on me, the government will step in to ensure I survive long enough to become independent again.

    Removing your kidney would cause you undue suffering. There are very few moral frame works where that would be the right thing to do.

    Actually your game is a public space. By releasing it, you are making it a public space. You are selling it to customers. Those customers have rights, just as you do as a developer.

    If your game never leaves your own hard drive, then go nuts with ignoring accessibility concerns. But the instant you give someone else access to it, it is no longer a private concern.
     
  24. Kiwasi

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    So is everyone's diet. We are a cooperative species, none of us could survive without the labour of other people. The more interconnected humanity is, the more we can all have.

    Governments are formed to help regulate and facilitate that interconnectivity.
     
  25. chronos78

    chronos78

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    The language used in CVAA is way too vague to be realistically applied to all video game development. For example, with just a handful of the requirements:

    (i) Operable without vision. Provide at least one mode that does not require user vision.

    (iv) Operable without hearing. Provide at least one mode that does not require user auditory perception.

    (v) Operable with limited manual dexterity. Provide at least one mode that does not require user fine motor control or simultaneous actions.

    (vii) Operable with a Prosthetic Device. Controls shall be operable without requiring body contact or close body proximity.

    (3) TTY connectability. Products that provide a function allowing voice communication and which do not themselves provide a TTY functionality shall provide a standard non-acoustic connection point for TTYs. It shall also be possible for the user to easily turn any microphone on and off to allow the user to intermix speech with TTY use.

    A game developer could find himself in a situation where if they do not adequately provide a means for a deaf, blind, paraplegic, bilateral arm amputee using a blow tube hooked up to TTY device to play their game they are violating the law and could face significant fines. Regardless of how or why such an individual is even attempting to play said game to begin with.

    Yes, I realize this situation is completely contrived and is not the intent of the law but with the way the law is written, this situation could be possible. This is the inherent problem with vaguely written verbiage in laws.

    I deal with this problem at work all the time. My day job is designing and creating training products. Products that are required to be compliant with Section 508. The problem is that the individuals that need the special accessibility required by Section 508 are disqualified to do the type of work that these training products cover. Which means that all the effort needed to include these extra accessibility features that will never be used only serves to delay our ship dates.

    In some situations, these rules make sense and are a good thing but when forced to be applied blindly in all situations they are not only a hindrance but a waste of time, resources, and money. In my case for our gamification projects this could add hundreds if not thousands of man hours and cost millions of dollars to provide features that will never be used just because some bureaucrats who know nothing about game development think they are being helpful.
     
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  26. FMark92

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    I'm glad you think your government thinks of you as more than tax plant and a purchasable vote, I guess.
     
  27. Billy4184

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    Well I'm glad we agree on that, because I certainly can't think of any!

    However this is analogous to effort and monetary expenditure. The cost is still undue.

    There is very little about a product that is a public space, except for the financial transaction and the information that I give to a customer about it. There are very limited exceptions, such as to do with minors, but that relates to a potential positive act of harm which this is not.
     
  28. N1warhead

    N1warhead

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    That's not entirely accurate. The creators own the game, the people who purchase do so by right of a license to hold said software, at any time - if you read eula's, the companies can easily make your client unplayable and revoke your rights to play said game, even if you spent 300 on some special pre-order and cheat from day one. WoW does this, Guild Wars does this, some games like GTA V will just throw you into a hacker infested server so you can't play with legit players, etc.

    So no, players do not 'own' the game, they own a license to hold the game, nothing more.
     
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  29. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    You should study some philosophy then. Utilitarianism can be stated in such a way that it makes moral sense to harvest every hundredth person for organs to keep the other ninety-nine alive. It's considered one of the biggest weaknesses of the utilitarian moral framework.

    Are you selling or distributing the product to the public? In which case it comes into the public space. As a member of the public buying your game, I have certain rights that you must legally meet.
     
  30. Billy4184

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    The nature of cooperation is voluntary exchange of value, not a vague allusion to interconnectivity accompanied by the law.
     
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  31. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    I dont think our VR game will ever be accessible to some sorts of disabilities, regardless of regulations.
     
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  32. Billy4184

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    Such as getting what you paid for? I can't think of much else...
     
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  33. FMark92

    FMark92

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    Regardless if you want to release VWF in US, you'll need to add text to speech and virtual keyboard chat (you may already have that, I haven't browsed your devlogs for a while, sorry.) If someone can't grab the controller it's (probably) no longer your fault because you didn't make it.
     
  34. AndersMalmgren

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    This is the problem with bureaucratism, its ignorant and do not take the whole picture into account. For example here in Sweden you need to make your toilets accessible if you renovate. Doesn't matter if the apartment building is from 1870 and does not have an elevator. You still need to make it accessible with all the downsides that means.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  35. FMark92

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    Hold up! Please explain this. Is a door enough? Does the "victim" need to have belts to strap in?!
     
  36. AndersMalmgren

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    The door needs to have a minimum width that might completly change the style of a old apartment, you need a minmum radius around the toilet that highly restricts how you can plan the bathroom, etc,etc. Only good is that it outwins the old wetroom requirement of a 4 cm doorstep. Our doorstep would never be ok with the old doorstep rules :)

    IMAG1184.jpg
     
  37. FMark92

    FMark92

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    Can you get fined for illegal toilet?
     
  38. AndersMalmgren

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    Yeah, even forced to redo it, and that means lots of money bathrooms are expensive as hell here. What happened to invidualism?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  39. AcidArrow

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    What happened to staying on topic?
     
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  40. FMark92

    FMark92

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    Government overreach is the topic.
     
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  41. AndersMalmgren

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    Isn't the topic accessibility?
     
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  42. AcidArrow

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    No to both, but maybe that’s just me :)
     
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  43. FMark92

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    Stay on your topic and stop encroaching on my freedoms, then. :D
     
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  44. Antypodish

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    The Swedish bathroom accessibility case, can be easily interpreted in a game context. But what I am interested is, what About toilets, where original space is roughly 1 meter square? You would not be able to be complaint with guidelines, unless you move (expand) toilet's walls. Which not always may be possible.
     
  45. AndersMalmgren

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    You may be forced to expand, it's from case to case. Also if you renovate bottom floor in your house and it does not have a bathroom you will be forced to add a bathroom even you don't have a need for one.
     
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  46. Antypodish

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    Sounds like rubbish law enforcement. I mean I suppose is ok with new constructions, but for old buildings could be very awkward. Seams like money makin scheme.

    Anyway, I see equivalent from game dev perspective.
     
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  47. AndersMalmgren

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    The difference its not forced on old games. It's crazy they force this on existing buildings and even those that's are protected because of historic value.

    The thing is in sweden someone that gets disabled have the right to get their home converted by the state for free. If they force all home owners to make most of these requirements on beforehand it will be cheaper for the state. To me as a invidualist I think it's crazy. Why should I who have paid for my butiful over 100 year old apartment need to change it in a way that is against my own will just because me or the next owner can get disabled.
     
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  48. AndersMalmgren

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    This is a bit off topic but I want to tell it abyway, the mailman union have gotten the government to require all apertment buildings to have mailboxes on the first floor, this is not the norm in old apartments in sweden. The mailman needs to deliver to nail to the door.

    Luckily our apertment has a historical unique stairwell and there for has the highest historical protection (the norm is only exterior are protected) so we didn't need to add mailboxes to the bottom floor of the staircase.

    As a culture and history lover stuff like this makes me mad! But this is off topic so will stop ranting :)
     
  49. LaneFox

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    Seems incredibly stupid.

    Not everybody is physically able to go skydiving. Does that mean Skydiving companies are forced to accommodate the disabled? No, it doesn't. There's no reason that there is an arbitrary requirement for video games to be required to support and involve disabled persons.
     
  50. Moonjump

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    This law may be overreaching, too vague, and lacks context awareness. But there is a need to be more inclusive. Why should someone lose out because of something they have no control over? It is impossible to always accommodate everyone, but all too often there are simple to implement options that are ignored. This law tries to force people to improve, it just has issues with doing it well. Something not uncommon with new laws.

    You list some examples that are perfect cases of things easy to solve.

    The easiest first: Volume controls. Just include an onscreen graphic reinforcing the new volume. Basic usability that is useful to everyone.

    Colourblindness: If you have gameplay that requires identifying colours, reinforce the colour with different patterns or shapes. If that is too much, at least test your graphics in an art package by switching them to greyscale. Can the colours still be differentiated? Making things more distinguishable is also of benefit to all your players.

    A quick check show 5% of people as having disabling hearing loss, and 4.5% with colourblindness. Not only is making your game more accessible the right thing to do, it is also good for selling more.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019