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Epic Games Store

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by moonjump, Dec 4, 2018.

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  1. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Or

    You could do this literally anywhere else and not have to deal with the severe fallout this system has on Steam itself
     
  2. Antypodish

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    I know Epic is in early dev time, but thing I like on steam in current comparison.

    Steam
    upload_2018-12-9_5-30-0.png
    Epic
    upload_2018-12-9_5-30-8.png
    The major difference, is amount of info. Not pointing at review at this stage, but rather info like genre, screenshots, supported platform. Which is very informative, when scanning front page store.
     
  3. Ryiah

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    Once Epic has thousands of games they will change their way of displaying results too. :p
     
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  4. Antypodish

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    Anywhere else, I got same amount of mud, as on steam. Only that, I got no filter.
     
  5. Murgilod

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    Yeah, not sure why people are harping on this when, at the moment, we have a whopping seventeen games on display.
     
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  6. Antypodish

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    I can only hope so at this point. We will see how it will evolve ;)
     
  7. Murgilod

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    Yeah, not sure why people are harping on this when, at the moment, we have a whopping seventeen games on display.


    Cool, how do you plan to address this?

     
  8. Antypodish

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    I think this may have historical comparison value, where you can see year later, how it was, and how it evolved.
     
  9. Antypodish

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    Already did. When I said about having filter.
     
  10. Ryiah

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  11. Antypodish

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    This is good reference.
     
  12. Murgilod

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  13. Murgilod

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    This doesn't work though. If the filter system worked no developer would have a single issue with Steam's review system.
     
  14. Antypodish

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    But I am not looking at this point from the perspective of a developer, but as a potential customer. That is major difference.

    And not saying the system is perfect.
    But we know saying, "bad news are better than no news"
     
  15. Antypodish

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  16. Ryiah

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  17. Murgilod

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    Except that's not true.

    Review bombing, feature requests being disguised as reviews, DRM gripes, and all other things have had negative impacts on sales more often than not because your discoverability is based heavily on reviews. Hell, Steam itself severely limits your discoverability if you have less than 50 reviews in the first place.

    The review system isn't working and external sources exist.
     
  18. Antypodish

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    While not something unexpected, but I find this interesting.
     
  19. Antypodish

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    External sources is even easier to forge, toward given bias. And less accessible for small titles.
     
  20. Murgilod

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    It's easy to forge a review on Steam so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up, those same biases exist on Steam, and you won't even have most discoverability options available on Steam until you hit 50 reviews, which most small titles never get.
     
  21. Antypodish

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    It is very simple.

    Lets consider GTA 5. type that into browser, so you will pop up with all marketing pages first.
    Typing GTA 5 review give me some review, but most of them will be biased one way, without alternative view.
    For big title, is not hard to sponsor such web positioning of reviews, to promote, until few months / years later.
    Good if there is also discussion on the page, but I am not wasting time on these.

    On steam even with certain bias, I have easy access to filtered data. Also I can know when things happened. And was much easier to find out for example, about Rockstar GTA V issue, with anti-modding mechanics. On youtube, I would have to specifically search for keywords, providing I know the issue before hand.

    That is major difference, compare to any other review source.
    You know good and bad straight away, with few second eye glance on title.

    This is still much better, than having 0 promoting on the web. But that is not my issue. The title my eventually get threshold.

    We can not help everyone.


    Please don't continue on this subject.
    We heard enough of our opinions on either side.
    The thread is not about Steam review system.
     
  22. Ryiah

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    Okay, now type "GTA 5 Review" into YouTube. For the first result we get IGN (a company), but for the second result we get AngryJoeShow (an actual gamer). There are a couple other companies in the first page but the majority of the results are not companies.

    If you're among the relative few that care about modding you will know what to search for. Everything else can be found by searching for "GTA 5 issues". It does depend on the game though. For GTA 5 where the number of issues is relatively minor you will receive far fewer results than Fallout 76 where the game is borderline early access.

    If you truly didn't want this tangent you could have just not responded and it would have died almost immediately.

    I would argue that it's relevant as a review system is a major aspect to a modern online store. Steam just happens to be the best example as it has existed for long enough to see major alterations.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  23. Antypodish

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    While I see your point, some of us like to read, rather than watch x min of vid.
     
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  24. Ryiah

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    Very few video reviews are longer than five minutes and you don't even have to watch the majority of them as there is almost always a final verdict given at the end of the video. Plus a video can show you positive and negative gameplay in ways that a text review can't achieve.
     
  25. Socrates

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    In the long run, I think Epic's store is a good business decision as it appears they're willing to build it to be actual Steam competition. Being able to genuinely sell your products in more than one place is good for business, so will be good for video game companies. I also think that Epic has the opportunity to create the situation that early Steam had where you had to have a good game to get onto Steam, and that getting onto the service pretty much meant success so it was worth your time and money to produce a good game and get it onto Steam.


    On the subject of reviews:

    For some games, there are numerous reviews or reviews from people whose opinions you trust out there. For many smaller games, that simply is not true.

    There is also the time involved in searching out those reviews and whether it is worthwhile. I can quickly skim through the current Steam information on a game and decide in a few minutes or less if I have enough interest in a game to put in my wishlist for later consideration. (I only make impulse buys if I've been waiting for a game from a known developer, and then it's probably on my wishlist anyway just awaiting official release.)

    Yes, if I am looking to buy a $40 to $60 sort of game on the Epic store, I am going to be willing to spend time searching the web in hopes of finding enough information. But for a $10 or $5 game? The time spent searching could well have earned me more at my hourly rate than the price of the game. For me, that means I would never even consider buying an indie game from Epic. It is just not worth my time to figure out if the game is worthwhile. The Humble Store doesn't have the extensive reviews Steam has, and before I consider buying a game from them or their Humble Bundle, I look it up on Steam to see if it's even anything I want to play.

    I think Epic will have to reevaluate the lack of reviews in time. Once the store is successful, perhaps they will hire on staff to moderate reviews so they can have a higher class than Steam. (We can hope.) Or perhaps not require making up some meaningless text just to give a star rating, like Unity's Asset Store.


    Also, I have almost never watched video reviews of a game. I can skim written text in seconds, whereas videos take up way too much time I'd rather be spending getting multiple opinions. The few times I have ever had any interest in videos was when I was concerned that the gameplay would be enough to set off my migraines and the official videos just did not show enough gameplay.
     
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  26. AcidArrow

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    The reason you would be searching for reviews has nothing to do with the price. It’s more of a question whether it’s worth the time you are going to sink into it.

    And Steam review for small indies are not a good source of information.
     
  27. Ryiah

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    Both can be valid reasons. I've known people to show up on reddit asking for detailed info on a game because, while they had plenty of time to invest in the game, their budget only allowed them a single game every two or three months.
     
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  28. AcidArrow

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    Sure, but then I'm assuming they would also have plenty of time to look for reviews. Right?

    My point is that "I can't be bothered to look up for reviews for a 5-10$ game" since my time is more valuable (I'm paraphrasing), doesn't make much sense to me.

    More specifically this:
    I am just pointing out, that if you can afford things, where you spend your free time is most definitely the important and valuable thing and it's definitely worth spending a few minutes to find reviews in order to not have a bad time for the next 3-4 hours.
     
  29. Antypodish

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    Again, it is very simple.
    If I see 100 titles, I want sift quick through them.
    Quick glance, to get an idea, if they actually worth to look any further.
    But I want see a bit more, than just front picture.
    From that narrowing to 10. Can look for more info from that point.
    Now imagine, need to look 100 titles on the random places, all over internet, rather than one single place.
    It is fine, if person don't value own time, or just simply like to search a lot.
     
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  30. orb

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    Individual Steam reviews are useless, but trends can tell you a lot. If a game goes from "Mixed" to "Very Positive", you'll want to dig into the latest reviews and see what changed. In some cases the first reviews were from people who were angry at the devs for some other game they made. Other times the game had a rocky start with little or no communication, then they hired more people and focused.

    When reviews go from generally good ratings to one of the bad ones, it could be crap. Or they could have added loot boxes. So a large quantity of reviews can tell you something useful, but need a bit of interpretation. I'm more inclined to buy a game that started off badly buy moved into "Positive" or "Very Positive", but sometimes you have to read exactly what people are angry about and see if it matters to you. It could be something as stupid as expecting multiplayer in a game which never promised it or even mentioned it in any official text.
     
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  31. Antypodish

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    Thats exactly my point ;)
     
  32. orb

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    I'm watching movies and forgetting about open tabs with half-written comments, so there will be repetition :p
     
  33. Ryiah

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    No Man's Sky is an excellent example of this. It went from "Mostly Positive", to "Mixed", to "Mostly Negative", to "Overwhelmingly Negative", back to "Mostly Negative", back to "Mixed", and then back to "Mostly Positive".
     
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  34. Antypodish

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    True, but appears damage already has been done.
    According to graph, bad past sticks in mind of most, which makes hard to regain initial trust.

    upload_2018-12-10_4-2-35.png

    Bud I would also prefer, something going from bad, to good, rather opposite.
    I think mostly opposite is true, when 3rd party publishers gets involved.
    That is at least my impression, when games start at sudden implementing any means of monetisation.
     
  35. DgoodingIndi

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    It's a great alternative to steam
    And i'm sure it'll do great.
    And i'm sure it'll evolve as it grows.
    And I don't think it needs reviews to sell well.

    It's just not going to be a good discovery tool, except for the visually enticing games.

    The argument that having reviews is a bad thing goes against consumerism.
    And basically says, "I want to hide my S***ty practices better".
    Reviews are a great thing, and we should celebrate the ability to have more opinions available.
     
  36. AcidArrow

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    As a consumer, I have rarely found user reviews to be helpful to me, in any kind of store (and in the cases they are helpful, I have to spend great amounts of time on them in order to extract info I care about).
     
  37. Ryiah

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    See the problem is you're only looking at the review statistics. Back in July No Man's Sky released a major content update and the result was that No Man's Sky became the sixth biggest selling game for consoles for that month. Just to put that into perspective The Crew 2, which was seventh place, was a brand new release at the time.

    It's not like it was their first content update either. It was their fourth. It brought in $24 million (400,000 copies).

    https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ky-flies-once-more-as-fortnite-begins-to-flag
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Man's_Sky#Reception
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  38. orb

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    So the short of it is that figuring out what games to buy is a frickin' research job, and reviews are useful data points to weigh against everything else ;)
     
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  39. Antypodish

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    Actually I do skim through reviews, to get idea, what is going on. What attracts to the game, and what repels. Which takes only moment, with provided tools.
    My point is in this particular case, game only sells on sail times. Otherwise has no traction. No trust. Yes it sales big momentarily. But lost massive potential otherwise. Many titles sells continuously over full life cycle, keeping fan base interested. And you know where that may lead in future studio dev.
     
  40. Lurking-Ninja

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    Could you please explain to me how is that relevant when I'm watching Steam for PC games?
    I don't give a damn even if it's the top selling game on consoles.

    (And for the sake of this argument I will set aside that I wouldn't give my money to those guys no matter what.)
     
  41. RichardKain

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    Any game that gets negative reviews on Steam is more likely to perform poorly, no matter what the actual quality of the game might be. Any game that gets positive reviews on Steam is more likely to perform well, no matter what the actual quality of the game might be. Developers frequently "game" this system in order to artificially inflate the score of their own games, and reduce the score of their competitors games. What is supposed to be a system for making it easier for consumers to evaluate purchases instead becomes a behind-the-scenes war to control review aggregation. It is a deeply flawed system that actively rewards bad behavior.

    By not providing a review system, Epic's game store is side-stepping a pitfall that Steam has been mired in for quite some time. They may change this policy in the future, but for now their lack of a review system meaningfully differentiates themselves from Steam. (for good or ill) And while some consumers might be puzzled by a lack of stars next to a game's title, there are an awful lot of developers who are going to look very positively on this difference.
     
  42. Murgilod

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    Citation needed.
     
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  43. RichardKain

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    It's also worth pointing out that aggregated review scores are best at their intended purpose after they've been around for a while. Give a game a few years, and the hundreds of reviews it gets tend to average out a bit better, which gives you a better idea of community reaction. However, getting to this point usually takes so much time that it isn't really valuable to the developer. At that point, most games are only getting purchased at deeply discounted prices in Steam sales. The usually very important post-launch sales don't benefit from reviews at all, as that is the time when the review system is most vulnerable to manipulation.

    Removing such a system evens the playing field quite a bit. Older titles don't get an advantage, and new titles don't get a handicap.
     
  44. RichardKain

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    Seriously? You want a comment like this justified by outside corroboration? SERIOUSLY?

    Valve still trying to stop Steam user review manipulation - Techspot
    Valve still trying to stop Steam user review manipulation - Rock Paper Shotgun
    Valve bans developer after employees leave fake user reviews - ArsTechnica
    Steam 'Review Bombing' Is A Problem - Kotaku

    This is a very well-known issue that's been going on ever since Steam first implemented their review system. I'm more than a little flabbergasted that anyone would ask for a citation on such an incredibly obvious issue. One that's been reported on for years, and that Valve is still having to take measures to prevent. Any public system with defined rules will see users actively attempt to circumvent or skirt around it's intended functions. People game systems, that's only natural. The best way to prevent such gaming is to not have the system in the first place.
     
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  45. Lurking-Ninja

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    ROFL.
     
  46. Murgilod

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    Only one of those links implicates a developer. Review bombing is almost always community led.
     
  47. Socrates

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    I just read a blog post on Gamasutra on this this topic, so figured I would post it here for anyone who might not have seen it if they're interested. It mostly focuses on how the new Epic Store is bad for customers and the relationship between developers and publishers. "The Epic Store, In Its Current State, is Not Good for Anyone".
     
  48. Lurking-Ninja

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    Well, I agree some of the problem he brings up. But I don't think that Indies making AAA-like decisions would be one of them. AAA or Indie, they are business. They need to make their own decision. This should not be moralized at all. And users are big girls and boys, they can see that a developer choose something (in this case easier dev time and more cut from a sale).
    But on the other hand I'm not convinced that this will be that big of a deal. I suspect people won't move away from Steam, on the contrary, they will start to appreciate the feature-set they have.

    But I got that I'm naive, multiple times, so I may be wrong. :D
     
  49. Socrates

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    I do not see it as moralization. I see it as a question of how you want the relationship between developer and customer to be.

    I am stretching the metaphor a bit here, but:

    You walk into a big box store like WalMart, you know that you'll be lucky if you can even get someone to show you where something is, and you know that nobody has any power to give you any information or make any decisions. (Heck, they don't even set the temperature on the air conditioning; the corporate office handles that.)

    You walk into a local mom and pop grocery, you can get to know the people, and you might even be able to speak to the person who decides how things are run.

    Neither situation is more or less moral. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

    It's the same with AAA vs. indie. Neither is more or less moral. However, a AAA game has to sell millions of copies, so it's customers are just faceless numbers and nobody is ever going to connect with anyone in real power. For many indie developers, they make a big deal about how they interact with their customers, and it even becomes a selling point for some of those customers.

    The way the Epic Store is set up, there is no information, no interaction, no nothing. It's a faceless page with some pretty images and some text. Take it or leave it. It's not less moral, it's just far less customer friendly and I think it's a thing that a lot of PC gamers are not going to like.

    Note that this does not mean I think Epic is going to fail here. From what I understand, the way that Xbox or Playstation sells games to people who are sitting there on the console is a lot like what Epic is presenting. You decide from pretty pictures and advertising what you want to buy, not from seeing what other actual players think. So, there will be people fine with using the Epic Store as they're presenting it.
     
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  50. Ryiah

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    It's relevant because reviews don't equate to a game being popular and fun to play. Having played the game at launch I can safely say I didn't enjoy it. Having played the game from the beginning after the fifth content pack was released I can safely say that I enjoyed it.

    Games can completely turn around and it definitely did, but the Steam reviews and aggregate can't and don't reflect this.

    You wouldn't reward a game developer for choosing to stick with their product after it's release? Hello Games may have hyped the game too much, and their marketing was definitely deceptive, but they followed up that launch with the actual features and content they promised. I'm not aware of any other company - AAA or otherwise - that has done this.
     
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