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Unity Enlighten deprecation and replacement solution

Discussion in 'Global Illumination' started by Jesper-Mortensen, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. Grimreaper358

    Grimreaper358

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    Well, I'm not too sure with all this mobile talk with realtime GI but HDRP doesn't really support mobile (It was being worked on). I think a lot of people are mixing things from their use of the Builtin renderer and that's why they are a lot more frustrated with the situation.

    - Built-in Renderer supports every platform and Enlighten (until 2022 since ) Built-in doesn't get new features just bug fixes until it's been replaced by URP).

    - HDRP initially had Enlighten support but it wasn't fully supported it just worked, it mainly supported the PLM. HDRP only supports compute capable devices, consoles, and PCs.

    - URP/LWRP never supported Enlighten but it supports all platforms. GI is also from PLM

    With this in mind, you can properly parse the info here and understand where others are coming from when they mention not worrying about mobile, etc. The rendering future of Unity is URP and HDRP/DOTS Hybrid (For both pipeline)

    Builtin will be dropped so most people here are already using HDRP or URP and if you understand the purpose of each pipeline you kinda get why things are going how they are. Your only frustration is that you don't have a replacement currently rather than what the new solution should support.

    The higher-end phones with compute could run HDRP but I guess this is more a future thing (most phones will have compute and a lot more powerful) unless your target today is just the higher-end phones and running a short demo rather than a full game with HDRP. URP is used for a wide range of platforms. If the new system is quite universal (HDRP and URP) then maybe mobile will have realtime GI as well. The only thing we have to go off right now was that Unite Copenhagen presentation and that was all RTX base.
     
  2. Noisecrime

    Noisecrime

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    I thought the whole problem between the two was that it wasn't easy, recommended or even possible to switch between them? They are so fundamentally different that even if you could purpose shaders that lighting would just be so off that you'd essentially have to rebuild scenes/environments anyway?

    But maybe i'm wrong on that? Could you link to the post you were referring to?
     
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  3. Rich_A

    Rich_A

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    That kind of rebuilding is already necessary, if you have a fidelitous game right now, on built-in RP. Every game will be different, but for example I've needed to disable all realtime lights, and disable all fog, just as a start in hitting performance requirements on a mobile console.

    And that's not just a change of setting - each scene needs to have its lighting heavily adjusted and rebaked, since for example fog can be used to illuminate a scene.

    To an extent you can minimise differences between branches/builds by integrating extensive LOD and performance options, building for controller and mouse support from the ground up, as well as not using things like Alembic players.

    Basically, if you intend to take advantage of HDRP for PC/next-gen, and URP for last-gen/Switch/Mobile, you will need to fundamentally rebuild your game even in built-in. At least with HDRP vs URP its immediately clear on what you 'lose', and you can proceed with that knowledge already, rather than needing to test every single performance setting and option as you must now.
     
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  4. Noisecrime

    Noisecrime

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    Thanks for the reply, sadly I feel no-one has a real answer to the big question of exactly 'how much effort' is involved in switching between the new render systems vs the old. I'd also like to point out that while in your case it does sound like you'll have to change much of the lighting, the problem with the new systems is you MUST change everything, where as with the old legacy render you might not.

    As a counter-point I've got a mobile app that must run on a huge range of hardware, however its rather simple in terms of lighting, but has requirement and potential to mange/render thousands of objects all on screen at once. If we were to go ahead and release a web version or standalone version, then I could easily add a whole range of legacy post effects and even some real-time GI that would really bring up the quality of the experience within a couple of hours.

    Compared to if I'd made this in URP ( where I assume with my limited exposure and knowledge of these new systems, maybe i'm wrong? ) i'd have to rewrite it from the ground up for HDRP! Plus that isn't even accounting for the main point of this thread which is that in a year or two that re-write will either be stuck on an old version that supports Enlighten, not use Enlighten or real-time GI at all, or require another rewrite when Unity finally release there new GI solution, assuming that its even robust enough to be used in commercial projects!

    Basically I think Unity have mis-stepped here in not providing support and planing for providing upgrade/downgrade paths between these rendering systems. At least I've not seen or read anything that supports that, its one or the other and to hell with developers who want or need to support both or something in between. The change to these new rendering systems have essentially lost all the scalability and ease of expansion that the legacy system had.


    As an aside I think one of the most annoying things i'm reading here in other comments is the assumption that everyone using Unity is making demanding graphical games. That is simply not true and i'm also not convinced that most users are even using the new Scriptable Rendering Systems. For one thing many companies will be supporting, updating and continuing development on legacy projects, which for mobile in particular may not see any value in trying to update past the legacy system. Problem is those companies are rapidly approaching a point where they are either stuck on old versions ( may not be possible as you have to keep up with phone OS and build requirements ) or face an expensive transition to the new rendering systems, which as this thread shows are still not functionally complete or will be on par with legacy once Enlighten is dropped.
     
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  5. Onigiri

    Onigiri

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  6. valarus

    valarus

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  7. EricWilliams

    EricWilliams

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    Long enough that you'll forget you asked the question.
     
  8. Salvador-Romero

    Salvador-Romero

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    This is very exciting and all that, but of what use is this, in the context of this thread (Enlighten deprecation), if you need a RTX or similar graphic card to make use of it?

    Mind that I appreciate the contribution! I’m just asking in case I’m missing something.

    Cheers!
     
    ftejada likes this.
  9. EricWilliams

    EricWilliams

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    I agree, it's really cool, but I'd like a real time GI solution that won't take 3 years for everyone's hardware to catch up with. Not to mention be developed and implemented well enough that we can make something with it..

    With Enlighten I can get over a thousand frames per second and it runs on a lot of different hardware. With initial ray tracing technology in Unity I can only get around 20 to 30 frames per second, on the same scene, which doesn't leave any cpu/gpu time for any other game dev stuff and it's still hugely feature incomplete.

    I'm thinking we may be in for a bit of a dry spell when it comes to real time gi :-/
     
  10. EricWilliams

    EricWilliams

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    Are there any technical papers on the technique that Enlighten uses for realtime gi? I found a paper that talks about enlighten as a lightmap baker(in frostbite) but none that talk about how Enlighten works at run time.
     
  11. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    Enlighten is a baker, it baked visibility then resolve gi based on that at run time, that mean dynamic object don't contribute, it's environment to environment only.

    Basically it cut the environment into surfaces, which are huge pixel with color and normal, they compute the direct light and shadow, then use on the cpu a list if all the potent surfaces that the current surfaces see, weighted by their contribution, and query their direct lights, then the result is stored on the surface accumulated with previous frames to simulate multiple bounces. Only work with diffuse light.

    The baking process is rather long, the optimization is to find the n most contributing surfaces relative to a single one. It send many rays, store the hit surfaces, the surfaces that get more rays get higher weights, weights is also modulated by distance, ambient occlusion factor and angles, relative to the computed surfaces. Then only x surfaces with the most weight get stored for run time process in the owr surface potent list.
     
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  12. jjejj87

    jjejj87

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    So...still no news about realtime GI?
     
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  13. EricWilliams

    EricWilliams

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  14. Bordeaux_Fox

    Bordeaux_Fox

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    I'm afraid, no new information. That's why I had to choose a new engine over Unity because I need a stable Realtime GI solution right NOW and I do not see a bullet proof solution with HDRP. I cannot understand why Realtime GI is not a big priority for Unity, it's really sad for a Realtime engine that is now not so realtime. But if you do not want the artists and studios that care about Realtime GI, good luck. Also, another engine announcing their DXR support will be out of preview soon and production ready SSGI. Meanwhile Unity still struggles with a stable implementation of DirectX12 ...

    How about pumping the money into the lighting department instead of ArtEngine and PiXYZ?
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
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  15. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    It's probably a big priority, they just don't have a good proprietary solution available.
     
  16. Bordeaux_Fox

    Bordeaux_Fox

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    How much time did they had to develop their own solution? How can they shut down the Enlighten support without a substitute? How can they release a new render pipeline without a Realtime GI that suits the new system?

    The main big questions are still not answered by Unity. All we know is the clash between Unity and the new owner's of Enlighten, asking too much money for an extended Enlighten license.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
  17. valarus

    valarus

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    Which one?
     
  18. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    They'll have to finish the render pipeline to start anyway, it's not production ready
     
  19. jonbeilin

    jonbeilin

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    CRYENGINE. Unreal's SSGI also is in a good place. To be honest, I'm glad Unity is focusing on a more robust solution out of the gate, in line with their intent to have a more defined and stable platform moving forward instead of a patchwork of preview packages.
     
  20. jjejj87

    jjejj87

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    priority or not, I often get the feeling that Unity just completely forgets that there are paying users, and when features just get dropped without a replacement...I kind of wonder if this company will last.

    Not to mention that the dropped feature is core to realtime render...

    I am seriously considering another solution...
     
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  21. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    I do consider another solution too anyway, I'm currently doing my own GI, it's not tied to unity, I'll soon get result on the proof of concept as soon as I implement the gathering part. But the way the engine is done, I'm not sure I can continue on it with urp hdrp (i'm still on built in to avoid surprise), I can export the knowledge, we will see.
     
  22. RobbinLeung

    RobbinLeung

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    Hi there , I am confused with the Enlighten and CPU/GPU lightmapper. When I choose the CPU/GPU lightmapper solution, should I keep the light type as "Realtime" or change to "Mixed" or "Baked" ???
    Thank you very much.
     
  23. sqallpl

    sqallpl

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  24. Salvador-Romero

    Salvador-Romero

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    Sorry, this is not the thread you are looking for ;-).

    P.S.: You might be getting confused with realtime GI and baked GI. Progressive CPU/GPU are for baked only. Enlighten can be used for both. The lights can be any of the three, depends on what you want. I suggest you spend a good amount of time on the docs and then, if needed, have a look at other threads.
     
  25. Subliminum

    Subliminum

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    Please calm down and wait until testing the actual release in 2021. Do not run into every PR speaking. (At the same time that also applies to Unity.) But nevertheless:

    It's true HDRP lacks a modern Realtime GI at the moment. Atleast there is a new branch on GitHub for a Screen Space GI approach for HDRP.
    Also, Unity has access to the same hardware realtime raytracing tech as Epic has, so why not ...
    But you're right that Unity is slow and late regarding that point. But atleast they offered Enlighten for free since years when Unreal did not!

    I don't see why Unity will be not able to render the exact same amount of polygons. I mean Unity already has heavy instancing with the Hybrid renderer, the tech is proved with the "Mega City" demo. Also the quality heavily depends on the assets. So with the same mega scans assets, you will probably achieve and equal look. But can you made them or pay for them yourselves? Unity already prove with "Book of the Dead" that they can handle mega scans ...
    Also megascans from "Book of the Dead" are free to use. It was a study on a realistic forest. So yes, no fancy temple assets because it was not the demo's theme.

    Nevertheless, Unreal are tied to the same limits of user hardware and current state of art as any other game engine in the solar system, so please do not overreact. Fast react time and high quality bounce GI will require an expensive hardware setup. Probably Unity got access from Sony to the same API tech for PS5 as Epic already has ...
    Unity rasied the subscription by 5$, probably they need money to invest in the high demanding user base requesting high quality features but at the same time, everybody is ranting about the higher asked price. But you know, features cannot be developed by air and love, they need money.

    Obviously Epic has the money, for pumping everything into expensive scanned assets. It's because they charge you 5% of your earnings you know and they are lucky by milking Fortnite. So somebody has to pay for the costs of free high quality assets and overworked graphics and lighting developers. Are Unity devs willing to pay in order Unity can invest more? Probably most of the user base want to have many as free as possible ...

    While I like the demo from Unreal 5, it's nothing new. Already showed by the Uncharted series (Naughty Engine !) and Havok Physics (which you can also use in Unity). So they pushed the graphics, because PS5 can do with realtime raytracing cores and faster speed due to SSD, so what?

    Sorry guys, some posts are just PR advertisement without any arguments. Are you even real developers capable of an argument based discussion?
     
  26. moxi299

    moxi299

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    A good lighting solution is not something that can be done quickly in a month. I have just installed the current beta of the HDRP in which the light volume component is already available.

    It seems to me to be the right way since this technique is very performant.

    gi off.jpg gi on.jpg
     
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  27. sqallpl

    sqallpl

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    @moxi299
    Thanks for posting this.
    Do you know what is used to bake probe volumes at the moment as Enlighten is not available in 2020.2?
    What was the baking time of the probe volume from your screenshots? I'm not asking about exact time, just generally.

    Do you know if it's possible to bake volumes at runtime in build?

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
  28. moxi299

    moxi299

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    Do you know what is used to bake probe volumes at the moment as Enlighten is not available in 2020.2?

    GPU/CPU Lightmapper as far as I know.

    What was the baking time of the probe volume from your screenshots? I'm not asking about exact time, just generally.

    About 10 - 20 sec.

    Do you know if it's possible to bake volumes at runtime in build?

    No, since this uses the Progressive Lightmapper
    But you can switch the Prebaked Data super easy since it is stored in a Scriptable Object.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
  29. moxi299

    moxi299

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    Warning.PNG
     
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  30. passeridaepc

    passeridaepc

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    Hi!
    How exactly did you manage to enable this volume component?
    Thanks!
     
  31. EricWilliams

    EricWilliams

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    I'm sorry, I might be a little confused, you're talking about baked lighting not realtime gi? This isn't some sort of weird Unity 2020 probevolume setup that does realtime gi, right?
     
  32. passeridaepc

    passeridaepc

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    It does some sort of GI without Lightmaps and it seems to be not as simple as regular light probes:


    But maybe I'm completely wrong, because I had to use a ridiculously dense grid of probes to cover this area which is around 5*5*5 Unity units. Though they baked really fast. But I have a feeling, that it's not supposed to be used this way. Maybe it's for covering big areas, because when I use it for such relatively small objects it doesn't produce any visible results until I make it really dense.

    But obviously it can produce GI shadows and color bleeding.
     
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  33. EricWilliams

    EricWilliams

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    Just to be clear, I'm guessing you can't re-angle the light to bounce red onto the back wall of the box without baking the scene again.
     
  34. moxi299

    moxi299

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    Atm, It's not realtime, No.
    But it is a GI Solution wich does GI without lightmaps.
     
  35. passeridaepc

    passeridaepc

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    Maybe it's supposed to be somewhat realtime in the future. It looks like a foundations for DDGI or something of this sort.
     
  36. Lars-Steenhoff

    Lars-Steenhoff

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  37. Bordeaux_Fox

    Bordeaux_Fox

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    Let's see who will be finished first with realtime GI, an open source game engine (Godot) or Unity with paid graphics developers.
     
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  38. EricWilliams

    EricWilliams

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    Or a dev like one of us on a realtime gi plugin/asset for unity.
     
  39. Bordeaux_Fox

    Bordeaux_Fox

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    There were attempts like SEGI, but development was cancelled, very sad.
     
  40. Onigiri

    Onigiri

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  41. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    They had for a while, what you see in that tweet is a new iteration
     
  42. Ninlilizi

    Ninlilizi

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    I'm still working on mine. (after 2 years in development) Planning to release later this year. HDRP support won't be till later though, first release is going to be regular render pathway only till it proves mature and stable enough to be confident.
     
  43. jefferytitan

    jefferytitan

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    I've been following @Ninlilizi's work, it started as simple bugfixes to SEGI, then moved to rewrite to fix some botttlenecks, and currently seems to be blossoming into something sophisticated. From what I gather it's based on SVOs, will have path tracing, and will likely at some future point either incorporate or be compatible with antialiasing and screen-space reflections.
     
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  44. cepoimario280135

    cepoimario280135

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    EricWilliams and Coalescer like this.
  45. Wawruch2

    Wawruch2

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    I'm on 2020.2.0a15 right now and there's lack of Enlighten Realtime GI. There are controls for "Albedo Boost" and "Indirect Intensity" for Realtime GI. It also works after project upgrade, but clicking again on "Generate Lighting" removes Realtime GI and there's no option to bring it back.

    Unity told that Enlighten gonna be available until 2020LTS and it's gonna be removed in 2021. Could you fix it?
     

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  46. Bordeaux_Fox

    Bordeaux_Fox

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    Enlighten is only supported for the old build-in renderer until 2020 LTS. If you are using HDRP, you can only use it until 2019.4 (2019 LTS).
     
  47. Wawruch2

    Wawruch2

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    I think it supposed to be 2020 also. Especially, cause it seems like they made mistake just by writing "false" in one field leaving Enlighten disabled but all the options that are the part of Enlighten are still in there. Changing the field makes it work just like in 2019.4. There was the same problem in 2019.3 before they repaired it.



    I mean it just seems like extremely illogical step to disable main option but leave all the sliders that are the part of the same option in engine.
     
  48. Bordeaux_Fox

    Bordeaux_Fox

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    So are you using HDRP or not?
     
  49. Wawruch2

    Wawruch2

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    Yes, I am.
     
  50. Bordeaux_Fox

    Bordeaux_Fox

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