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Unity Enlighten deprecation and replacement solution

Discussion in 'Global Illumination' started by Jesper-Mortensen, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. alexandre-fiset

    alexandre-fiset

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    RTXGI contains RTX. Unless there is something I have missed, this technology won't work on any sub-RTX video card and its AMD equivalent. The vast majority of PC gamers don't have such a card.

    While this may be part of game development future, for next gen consoles and high-end PCs, this still is not a viable replacement solution to Enlighten GI (which worked even on mobile).
     
  2. konsic

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    Is there a way to store RTX raytraced lighting as light probe group and reflection probes but not in old manor yet with RTX card?
    PC without RTX card would be able to play and experience already baked features of RTX.
    It would be something like mixed lighting in Unty with RTX approach.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  3. alexandre-fiset

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    That sounds indeed like a viable approach, but I am no expert in that field ;p
     
  4. OCASM

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  5. neoshaman

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    If I figure out how to efficiently bake cubemap progressively to a 2D atlas, we might have a solution for weaker machine too. DDGI seems to be the low hanging fruits, however it still use vanilla raytracing for updating the probes, in the talk he said that only need 300 rays to update per probes.

    I have done some napkin sketch calculation, that's the equivalent of a a cubemap with face of size 8 (that is 8² x 6 = 384), so there is probably a solution that use my texture based sampling emulation of raytracing ....
     
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  6. konsic

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    If there cuold be a new kind of format where you could store baked lighting information but not as lightmap texture but as 3D cube. Cube would project stored baked DXR lighting in tho the screen space.
     
  7. konsic

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    Is there a way to get light probes group work in real-time without baking static prefabs ?
     
  8. Grimreaper358

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    This seems to be the replacement being worked on -
     
  9. neoshaman

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    It's only dynamic on raytracing capable card, unlike enlighten who existed BEFORE those card and also on mobile.
     
  10. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Looks very nice though doesn't it?
     
  11. neoshaman

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    upload_2019-10-30_22-33-12.png


    DDGI script spotted in the inspector
     
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  12. konsic

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    It does look nice. Nvidia only though.
     
  13. OCASM

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    The dynamic updates are DXR only. Static mode works on everything else.
     
  14. konsic

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    So, I won't get indirect difuse color affect dynamic objects, only static ?
     
  15. OCASM

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    You would, just like with regular probes.
     
  16. DragonmoN

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    The wording is quite interressting: "This is global illumination that runs everywhere and benefits from Hardware acceleration on Nvidia RTX GPUs."
    And they even mentioned, that it also should run on the universal renderpipeline. Some other interresting things about it, are possible variable renderrates, like for on startup GI or slow async intervals for lower end spec hardware.
    Since Unity3d wants its Engine to run on allmost every Device, i cant image, that they will implement DDGI as an exclusive Nvidia only feature.
     
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  17. OCASM

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    Yeah, DDGI is basically the lowest-end ray tracing technique from NVIDIA. Personally I'd prefer stuff like what was implemented in Metro Exodus but that would be restricted to high-end hardware.
     
  18. alexandre-fiset

    alexandre-fiset

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    upload_2019-11-1_11-33-1.png
    Again, this is not a replacement solution.

    Enlighten precomputed dynamic GI works on the Switch.
     
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  19. OCASM

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    Time to start coding your own solution, it seems.
     
  20. neoshaman

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    Stay tunes for mine, if result are any good enough
     
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  21. OCASM

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  22. konsic

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    I think it is better to research internal solution in Unity, like Unreal has new realtime screen space GI, SSGI.
    SSGI would work great for interiors, only I'm not sure for large terrain worlds.
     
  23. DragonmoN

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    Where did you get that definitve information, that it will not be a replacement solution?
     
  24. konsic

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    Unity said here
    https://blogs.unity3d.com/2019/07/0...-for-baked-and-real-time-giobal-illumination/

    I think Progressive Lightmapper will get more updates for baking and DDGI static and dynamic will be extended to AMD in 2021.1.
     
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  25. alexandre-fiset

    alexandre-fiset

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    This thread is about an Enlighten replacement solution.

    Ray tracing technologies are far from being anything close to a replacement solution to Enlighten dynamic GI. The probes example makes the tech faster but not enough to even work on a GTX 1060, not to mention mobile platforms.

    If you have a game already on the market that uses dynamic GI, then it'll remain stuck to 2019.3 forever as there is no planned or announced viable alternative to the deprecated Enlighten.

    Again and again, and again, this is extremely problematic and I sincerely hope Unity find a real replacement solution.

    IMO anything related to DXR should go in its appropriate thread, and here we should be focusing on Enlighten replacement solution.
     
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  26. dgoyette

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    Unfortunately, I imagine it comes down to numbers. I'm in the same boat as you I believe: Using HDRP, using Enlighten for realtime GI. I'm expecting to be locked to 2019.4 LTS for the remainder of my project. But I wonder how many people, in the world, this currently affects. How many people are using Realtime GI in HDRP? I kind of assume the number is small enough that, as much as it pains me, it's probably not feasible for Unity to put a ton of resources into making the transition smooth.

    I do wonder how they managed to keep using Enlighten in the built-in renderer under 2020, but they can't use it in HDRP. Too bad Unity can't find a way to extend the license for HDRP for the year, until their replacement is ready.
     
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  27. alexandre-fiset

    alexandre-fiset

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    With Google push to sign developers on Stadia, this affects or will affect a lot of people down the line.

    Under any pipeline, Enlighten GI won't be supported on any new platfom, including Stadia, PS5 and Xbox Scarlett. Any game maker willing to port its game to any new platform will have to migrate to another dynamic GI setup, or just remove that functionality altogether.

    Right now, even under the latest HDRP 2019.3 package, point and spot lights indirect bounce does not work, and Enlighten is already marked as deprecated in the editor. I know they are working on fixing that particular issue, but the fact that such a big issue made it into the beta tells a lot about how unimportant it is for them to test and support it.

    They should definitely find a way to extend their Enlighten licence until they have a solid, production-ready solution available that at the very least work on Nintendo Switch and up.
     
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  28. neoshaman

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    You mean on mali 400 and up, that's still 20% of the market :p
     
  29. neoshaman

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  30. konsic

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  31. konsic

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    UE4.24 new SSGI:

    EIx-awHXUAAHfBZ.jpg
     
  32. BenzzzX

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    This takes 7ms on my pc with 1080p and GTX 1660, ahhhhh.
     
  33. neoshaman

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    Pain or relief? :p
     
  34. Rich_A

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    We might very well need two realtime GI solutions:

    One for Nintendo Switch/Mobile/Mainstream PC harware - as part of URP, using traditional lighting techniques

    Another for PS5, Xbox Scarlett, High-End PC hardware - as part of HDRP, and using whatever kind of raytracing solution/baseline the new consoles come up with.

    Coordinated with that, it seems a great time to officially remove the old render pipeline from 2021 onwards, as well as deprecating it for 2020.
     
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  35. konsic

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    It is better to unify SRP into one rendering pipeline and scale GI needs based on what platform you're targeting.
    Also, no need to mention how easier would be the maintenance and bug fixing of one SRP than doing the same for 2 pipelines at the same time.

    Than remove built-in renderer in 2021.
     
  36. Lars-Steenhoff

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    No need to remove the old pipeline that soon, thank you.
    First let the new ones become stable, as long as they are not, at least the old one works, let's think also about third party assets who need a lot of time to catch up.
     
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  37. konsic

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    In 2021.1 enlighten will be completely removed so I don't see reason to use built-in renderer because URP will be more superior than built-in renderer with new GI replacement.

    2020 LTS will have enlighten and I think developers who will use built-in renderer will choose LTS.
     
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  38. Rich_A

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    Agreed,

    Built-in renderer won't be getting the new GI solution (presumably) so its already effectively EOL.

    Better to just move onto the new solutions - URP and HDRP - rather than dragging everything out so long, with all of these old technologies kept around endlessly.

    Builtin renderer can be kept alive on 2020.4 LTS and that gives 3 years from now for people who absoutely must use that instead of URP/HDRP.

    Going all-in on raytracing for HDRP would be a great idea but understandably difficult without knowing what the capability of PS5/Scarlett will be. Its perfectly reasonable to design a baseline GI solution for HDRP with those two new consoles (and their PC equivalents) as the standard hardware.

    The production workflow for raytraced realtime GI is already different enough to traditional rasterisation that this might as well be encapsulated with a wholly different lighting solution for URP/HDRP. It would also differentiate URP/HDRP very clearly.

    We are probably on the final console generation before we move onto entirely thin-clients, so it makes sense to make this kind of big change now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  39. neoshaman

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    I think there might be one more generation before the end (most notably because of nintendo). Also probably at least 2 or 3 generations away from new rendering paradigm taking off, ie bye polygon.
     
  40. konsic

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    Which new rendering paradigm?
     
  41. neoshaman

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    There is a lot of them, Gaugan is probably where we are headed though.

    We are likely to have a mix of them anyway: sdf (like in claybook and media molecule's dream), ray tracing of non triangle primitive (experimental), voxel, splatting (media molecule's dream), pure shader based procedural representation.

    Some of them are just one innovation away from being production ready, almost all of them are actually used in support of rendering as geometry approximation, it's a matter of time that they literally just replace polygon all together.

    For example: if you have enough cubemap (with depth and color), you can do all geometry and lighting calculation with only them, as you can trace a ray within their volume and follow it from cubemap to cubemap using the overlapping space.
     
  42. OCASM

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    Polygons will continue with us for a long time. Offline still CGI uses triangles for most of the rendering.
     
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  43. Bordeaux_Fox

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    So this is really a big issue, I guess not just for me.
    I started with a project in April. We used the HDRP to achieve more photorealistic graphics. All sounded very promising. Back then it was really a nightmare to work with it because of the preview state. My gameplay relies mostly of interactive lighting. We have alot of light source that go on and off, change color and sometimes flickering. For that of course, we used Enlighten. Alone the manual placement of the light probes gave me sleepness nights. Despite the lightmaps we're no at all always clean it worked somehow.

    So now if I'm wanting to continue on that project, I don't know what to do. Can't either update my project to make the HDRP more stable and use the newest feature. Or I have to remove the dynamic light part, which basically breaks the gameplay and mood of my game.

    And yes, I also tried DRX. Brought an expensive new RTX. Results are crashes. I'm really unsatisfied because Unity leave me without zero options for a dynamic lighting game. So right now I have to make a decision to drop Unity for that project and begin from the ground up with a new engine. I don't know if I'm missing another option here. Wondering what your solutions are. Also my work has to be go on, cannot wait years and do nothing. I need a strong light solution right now out of the box. Right now, if I'm going to the Unity frontpage, everything shines and making huge promises but the reality is that Unity is really changing and breaking stuff, letting me alone with experimental stuff or nothing.

    Was that really impossible to you to communicate the dropping of Enlighten early this or last year?
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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  44. OCASM

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    There's always the "code your own" option. Just saying.
     
  45. moxi299

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    We should put our future on NVIDIAs RTXGI/DDGI....

    Just imagine how powerful the following combination of facts is:
    - lightspeed baking times or Runtime with RTX.
    - per Pixel Interpolation of Probes (strong hope since LightProbeProxyVolumes take much Memory on the GPU)
    - working with Bentnormals, required to compensate the detail loss of LightProbe GI (just guessed)
    - tiny cost of of GPU memory
    - Works for large Scenes as well as for small Scenes
    - Cascading / Streaming of Probes
    - easy to use

    Most of that points are confirmed in the Video of the NVIDIA RTXGI Talk.
    So we can hope that it does not take too long to play with it.
     
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  46. Rich_A

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    Can DDGI run on a high-end mobile (low-end mobile would have realtime shadows/lighting disabled anyway) or Nintendo Switch?

    That's the critical part - and dare I say it where most of the money is being made for actual Unity end-developers.

    Totally fine with a DXR card becoming a requirement for a lightmap *baking* solution though (URP and HDRP), on the developer-side.

    Totally fine with Realtime Raytracing becoming the requirement for client-side realtime GI for HDRP, to be used on the next-gen of consoles and mid/high-end PC.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
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  47. OCASM

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    They are just probes so they'll support mobile too. Updating them in real-time will be a high-end feature only, it seems.
     
  48. neoshaman

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    Basically this, because enlighten sure does


    Well technically "yes"
    - if we find another way to update ddgi without hardware accelerated raytracing, it's basically real time lightprobe baking with light bleeding prevention. Also
    - if we go custom, and
    - if unity allow run time modification of lightprobe ... else you would have to roll you own
    That's a whole lot of if ... I'm kinda working on that at my own rythm ...
     
  49. kokku

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    Enlighteen was a purely software based solution and required major compromises to run on mobile. I suppose you could have a software-based DDGI that casts rays against a pre-computed simplified representation of the static scene. Have it work progressively and it could run on low end devices.
     
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  50. neoshaman

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