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Enemies: New tech demo showcasing Unity's growing humanoid toolsets

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by IllTemperedTunas, Mar 22, 2022.

  1. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    I actually need to lower the ambient occlusion map just a tad... It's showing too strongly. Also, aren't the eyes in the Enemies demo StackLit or something to that effect?
     
  2. neoshaman

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    The important part is that it's not only a sphere, it has a volume bump for the iris, and use raytracing (as in mathematically findings the surface depth from the projected view vectors) it to get proper light diffusions and avoid the glassy eyes effects.

    I never used hdrp or urp so I wouldn't know about using there structure. I use and reference the shader language.
     
  3. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    Yep. I checked all of those boxes and I'm using parallax napping to fake refraction. Amplify Shaders don't support raytracing yet
     
  4. neoshaman

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    That's not that kind of raytracing, you do it custom In shader, with math.
     
  5. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    And I prefer it this way. If HDRP supported LayeredLit in Amplify, I could have easily put a roughness map on the iris and kept the rest intact, case closed
     
  6. ippdev

    ippdev

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    Yup. Reasons under NDA.
     
  7. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    And most of us will have already moved on to another engine. I'm still trying to figure out how to do the eyes from Enemies in Unity 2021 using Amplify Shader Editor. But getting the caustics working had been a pain
     
  8. valarnur

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  9. ippdev

    ippdev

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    Most of us..LOL..folks making movies and shooting commercials and video don't wanna pay royalties to the software they use to create shots. Unity s starting to be installed alongside Black Magic and Da Vinci on hardware specifically built for on-site archiving and editing of shots..
     
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  10. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    Hell yeah. I've been looking to make films using Unity and Davinci Resolve is freaking awesome
     
  11. Neto_Kokku

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    Good thing they don't have to since Unreal only charges royalties for distribution of binaries made using UE.
     
  12. Ryiah

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    While it's accurate to say that they don't charge royalties if you use UE to create films, it's not accurate to say that they only charge royalties if you build binaries with UE. What the EULA actually says is that you owe them royalties if you distribute a product made with any engine code or requires engine code to run.

    That first one is what most people think of, creating a project with UE, but it includes creating a project outside of UE that uses part of UE's code. The second is though is the more interesting one here because it includes plugins and tools created for the engine.

    https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/eula/unreal
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
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  13. ippdev

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    So unlike Unity you cannot make software specific for SFX and live compositing and sell it but you can write your own from the ground up.. Got it.
     
  14. ippdev

    ippdev

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    Will let you know what's up when I am allowed to say what's up.
     
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  15. Neto_Kokku

    Neto_Kokku

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    Please, that was blatant goalpost moving.

    by the same logic, you are also "not allowed" to sell software made using Unity's free license if your company makes more than $100K a year.

    These are tools, it won't hurt you nor anybody else to go to their website and check things out. There's no one rewarding you for displaying "loyalty" to a tool, you're just limiting yourself to the point of dispensing incorrect information like that previous post, which can make your posts seem less reliable for some.

    Also, why would someone use Unity or Unreal to make a standalone VFX editing software? Neither support run-time asset importing out of the box, you have to replicate a lot of tooling that already exists in-editor, you cannot create new shaders during run-time, off the top of my head. This sounds like something that could be done better as plugins. Heck, unreal already has composition tools in-engine (not that you would know that, from what I understand now).
     
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  16. ippdev

    ippdev

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    Wow dude..chill. You make some heady assumptions about the nature of my work and jump to many erroneous conclusions before spouting a yard of BS. The software I am writing cannot be done on Unreal. Partly due to licensing, partly due to code legacy and mostly it just can''t do what it needs it to do. Apparently that cranks your motor hard. No idea why. You working for Ten Cent maybe?
     
  17. Neto_Kokku

    Neto_Kokku

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    Sorry, I have this bad habit of trying to correct people when they are wrong on the internet.
     
  18. ippdev

    ippdev

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    Your other bad habit is you assume far too much. I have a habit myself of correcting narrow focus gamers there is a whole wide world of uses for Unity beyond making a game. I also have a habit of kicking sand in Unreal fanbois faces. With a Venn diagram of the two overlappng ideologues there would be 90+% overlap. If yer over calling me a liar I won't kick sand in your face..deal?
     
  19. UhOhItsMoving

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    What makes somebody a liar is if they lie, not if somebody calls them a liar. If somebody says you lied, but you didn't, just cite your source; they can't disagree with that. :)
    Not trying to start another one, but the number of threads here that started as or became "Unity vs UE" threads speaks for itself, beyond any of our opinions on the subject.
     
  20. neoshaman

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    Both have their issues, but I'm seeing a lot more of finished movie and workflow breakdown from unreal user. I only ever see unity user complaining. And outside of Sakura rabbit, whenever I see someone doing hi quality rendering work with unity, they end up on unreal a few step after.

    Even some youtuber I followed for unity have shift to unreal and is making video how to shift and what to expect, but he is a c++ user, I never seen any people I follow going from unreal to unity.

    That said, nobody is able to tell me how great unreal is for procedural planet type of problem thingy.
     
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  21. Ruberta

    Ruberta

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    Unity is much better when it come to create your own custom editor/tools/software. Unreal pipeline really restrict the way that you can create asset at runtime and their EULA also prevent usage of editor code and developer module outside of their ecosystem. (Your user must accept Unreal EULA before access that part of code. This is why mod kit always need to release on unreal marketplace or epic's github)

    Even Quixel Bridge now still use Unity. This show how much flexible Unity is in terms of both asset pipeline and license to allow custom tool being made outside of unity ecosystem.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
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  22. ippdev

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    Every last thread started by someone interested in building games. I build applications. The Unreal stuff is just noise IMHO. This is Unity forums. Wanna talk Unreal..go over the their nearly non-existent forum. Stop coming over here and threatening to take the project you will never finish because perfect is the enemy of good, over there to punish Unity with withdrawal of your 0 dollars payment per month. As far as the other dispute. None of your business. If ya wanna make it that it ain't a wise thing to do. Dude was intimating I was a liar because I didn't flow with his Unreal schtick. Now yer butt hurt about it.. See..it ain't an opinion. I am actually working on it. Ergo his dispute is to say that I ain't and it can't and i couldn't and it is but isn't. A bit complex for you to wrap your head around I imagine..hence your knee jerk transactional insertion.
     
  23. UhOhItsMoving

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    In their defense, some (if not, all) of them are avid Unity users, so their "I'm going to Unreal" posts come from a place of frustration with Unity rather than fanboyism for Unreal. And if their problems are actually because of user error, them saying it on the Unity forums will help them more than on the Unreal forums because people on the Unity forums actually use Unity. ;)

    Also, if you don't think I get annoyed at seeing threads specifically about Unity turning into "Unity vs Unreal" threads, I do, but I don't mind so much threads dedicated to the subject.
    So, from a tip with a smile and an observation of the forums, you think that I'm butthurt, that things posted in a public discussion are none of my business, and that my post was a "knee jerk transactional insertion." :confused: Ok. Here's another tip:
     
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  24. Antypodish

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    @ippdev whay don't you take your own advise and chill down. Take a break or take a walk. You often reply so defensive and snarky, if someone just use wrong word, disagree, or often being missinterpret. Please be more polite on the forum, not making personal battle and trying shoot down every poster. Your long personal post is uneccessery here.

    I want to read about game dev, software and technical aspects.
     
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  25. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Hey all,

    Going to request people take it down a notch/get back on topic, because of reports and it's kinda losing the reason for the thread. Self moderate yourselves as you like - I doubt any kids are in this thread.

    FYI I love Unity and also other engines. Being surrounded by tech that's basically free is mind blowing. Really mind blowing.

    And Unity's new hair is part of what we could all call a Humanoid Toolset. Going to be a hair-raising 2023 when all the next tech begins to drop.

    Let's get back on topic.
     
  26. ippdev

    ippdev

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    I have done so and did. I do have every right to take offense that I am talking BS. I just came off a conference call with the folks who provide technologies for film making to Sony and series like Yellowstone. Unity is indeed being used in the industry and not for what folks think. So to be told I am FOS by someone not privy to my day to day job is rude. So I rudely replied. Then go reported for hitting the mark. This is a Unity forum. There should be a meta-forum and anytime one of these folks inject Unreal they are told there is a forum for that. It has ruined every thread about any Unity tech and will continue to do so. "Nuff sed.
     
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  27. KRGraphics

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    You know what I'm curious about about watching the SIGGRAPH 22 event about Enemies? I'm wondering how the separate normal map for the wrinkles were made and the blood flow mapping.

    Were they blended together through painting? Or separate bakes. And how do you paint vertex colour for blending normal maps? Can it be done in engine? I'm hoping to add wrinkle maps for my own shaders in the future
     
  28. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    I see what you did there
     
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  29. Qleenie

    Qleenie

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    Are the Siggraph 22 talks available anywhere online? Really interested in it.
    From analyzing the code of digital human package, the idea is to measure the distance of adjacent vertices based on their original distance, and with this calculate the stretch / compress factor. this is written in the color channel of each vertex. In the shader, you just need to read the color, and blend the wrinkle normal map or bloodflow map based on that value. So the second part with the shader is easy. No need to paint vertex colors. The first part is a bit tougher, as this needs to be done every frame, which is only viable on GPU. The code is there already, but no demo yet to see it in action.
     
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  30. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    I should clarify. It wasn't a SIGGRAPH video I saw, it was from the GDC in March, which demonstrated the Enemies demo
     
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  31. GimmyDev

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    It's not a new techniques, you can Google about it, there is even workflow about how to bake stretch vertex with blender.
     
  32. Qleenie

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    the difference is that this is per vertex and real time.
     
  33. GimmyDev

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    Real time stretch map Vs real time blending of data. The resolution is still real time in both case.

    But I understand where you come from. Not having to bake saves time, but it's the old memory Vs compute trade off. Baking scales more toward lower end, for ex mobile, the techniques is still useful for less realism or less quality model. The benefit is marginal.
     
  34. KRGraphics

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    I was going to do it like a rig and use a texture mail to drive the blending with a rig. And all I would need is three normal maps (neutral, stretch, and compress) and three Dermis and Hypodermis maps (my skin shader uses three albedo maps for colour). And blend it with animation
     
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  35. Qleenie

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    Unfortunately, it's the sum of all these marginal differences which makes stuff like the Enemies demo believable.
     
  36. GimmyDev

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    But useable in a real productions? I'm not sure for game, compute overhead steal resources for elsewhere.

    The baking is deterministic, and can be compute fast enough per blend shape. It won't appear in the workflow of the artist once automated, because computation are trivial.

    When I say marginal, it's relative to the actual work needed.

    But the stretch compression map isn't the reason this demo look impressive. That's more an optimization that already exist from the 12 map wrinkle map. It's the 3d scanning, rigging from extracted scanned expression, and the 4D scanning of the acting. None of which unity provide a solution as of right now, just promise they will do good with Ziva's tech, all while competition provide ready made tools. And you still need the talents and skills.

    The demo will have its use. But fanning over the quality won't necessarily translate into good tool down the line.

    I have yet to assess the hair simulation from the GitHub, it's based on cosserat rod model, which is promising and an improvement over similar techniques.

    But to be frank that's what they are showcasing now, but I wonder how it compares to tressfx with similar specs, I'm not sure the lion demo would be a best case to contrast the two. Given it seems to have heavy compute cost, it might go the way of tressfx, only useful in the one game design to showcase it, then being ignored for saving performance.
     
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  37. Qleenie

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    All true, these things come with some performance impact. The calculation of vertex distances is not a big thing, though, this will be like 0.1ms for a complex character. If a simulated character is not the main topic of the game, all these technologies are too expensive. It's not yet suitable to be applied to multiple NPCs in a scene, maybe on one or two.
    The hair package is fantastic. Very good simulation, very fast for what it does. But it does a lot;)
     
  38. KRGraphics

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    And it's even harder to get NPCs to be at parity with your hero characters. But sadly you can't have a bunch of characters on screen with diffusion profiles
     
  39. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    Anyone know where the tension map script is? Is love to looking into using that and setting up my own characters with it.
     
  40. timmehhhhhhh

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    I've not had time to play with it, but there are some bits in the digital human staging branch, including moving the skin attachment and deformation to compute (the latter having a skin solver).
     
  41. vertexx

    vertexx

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    Very much like "Poser". For most CG stuff, the software used is easily recognized even though very technical. A long way to go yet for realistic rendering. Great fun to spend your time with. Beats walking the streets. But with all the sliders, choices and buttons it still looks like a last century render. Sorry about that! But we are still getting there.
     
  42. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    https://unity.com/demos/enemies

    You can now enjoy the demo yourselves. It ran... a bit slow on my rig which is basically a bit faster than a PS5, but YMMV.

    IMHO with the proper optimisation it really should run 60FPS on a 2060 with DLSS, that's a reasonable goal for what amounts to a high-end demo room.

    Without running renderdoc, I suspect there are few triangle density problems, and asset problems which are leading to that lower than expected performance. Perhaps the bandwidth usage in HDRP could be reduced as well, such as buffer formats and so on.
     
  43. PutridEx

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    Lots of excuses for bad performance :D

    For me the performance was rough, but about what I expected since it relies on raytracing quite a bit.
    By default, if you clicked on the enemies executable it runs with DLSS on. There was a good amount of noise for me on 1080p, RTX 2070 super. Even when running it at native res.
    When DLSS is disabled, (i assume) TAA can't keep up with all the detail. Increased aliasing/noise

    HDRP raytracing is very expensive, this performance level seems about right. Doubt it's asset issues.

    Considering I ran the matrix demo with a stable 45-60 (depending on settings) FPS, it's hard to be impressed here.
    Then again, I never cared much about this character demo :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2022
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  44. spiney199

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    It would be nice if the settings panel worked. I'd like to launch it with everything on high sans raytracing, as my 1080ti predates that kinda tech a bit.

    But nah. High 4K runs terribly because of ray tracing, medium looks like ass on my 4K screens.
     
  45. KRGraphics

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    While the tech and tools are impressive, using them is still out of reach for a lot of us, especially doing 4D captures and 3D scanning. The closest thing we can use are tools like Zephyr and Reality Capture, but we need cameras and lots of them.
     
  46. neoshaman

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    It would have been half useful if we I had access to the head geometry, texture and morph... I'm about to build a set of tools to mine data from quality model to see if I can transfer part of data to any head geometry. Which would be useful knowledge to share for people without access to such quality capture.
     
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  47. KRGraphics

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    That will be awesome. Currently, I have to sculpt all of the expressions by hand in ZBrush and then map each expression as a corrective blendshape underneath a bone rig
     
  48. neoshaman

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    I have to warn I have no guarantee of success. But I'll share the journey once I'm starting it. Rn I have issue with ycocg encoding, once that's solved, it's likely I'll start this one.
     
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  49. KRGraphics

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    Take your time. I'm still working on my HMC but having difficulty getting casting materials and it's getting cold here.

    I might have to use 3D printing in the meantime. Looking for nylon filament
     
  50. AcidArrow

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    I feel like most of the problem comes from Unity still being a bit ambiguous in how they present these shorts.

    They are clearly intended to showcase Unity's ability to generate pre-rendered CG movies and offline shorts (and create a cool marketing image or two) and for that use case, even 0.1 frames per second is amazing (although, I would hope that the editor experience while editing the project is decent and... is it?),

    But their messaging talks about "pushing the boundaries of realtime 3d" and "real time cinematic teaser" and uhhh... No. Just stop.

    And I'm conflicted, because I think the team making these is really talented and I really like Veselin Efremov's direction (the 1st Adam short is up there as one of my favourite short movies in general), they should just stop using these to imply that anything shown is directly applicable to making games.

    Every time I see one of these shorts I go "Wow, this is incredible! It also tells me absolutely nothing about Unity's ability to make games"
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2022