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Do you tend to build Games or Simulations?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Arowx, Mar 13, 2018.

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  1. FirstTimeCreator

    FirstTimeCreator

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    Well he would call it a simulation now ;) since im doing a version of the controller with 0 drag, and the realistic version will be built around that. I still want it easy to control without a difficult learning curve. I dont care if i lose some realism as long as it is fun and easy for the player to jump into and fly.
     
  2. BoogieD

    BoogieD

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    Hey, that Russian monkey cosmonaut did Newtonian physics on a slide rule to get into space.
     
  3. BoogieD

    BoogieD

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    That's how I feel about my flight sim/game. I have studied the various flight forces involved extensively and incorporated most of them into my flight controller making a very enjoyable flying experience that is fairly realistic for the average person. Many of my forces are derived from a non scientific process but they are close enough for what is needed. I'm not doing mission critical calculations and can save on clock cycles. Complex real time flow dynamics? Forget it!
    True simulations like many things in reality are tedious, perhaps appreciated by some but I don't need to be a NASA specialist to create fun. Console type games on the other hand tend to be obnoxious, unrealistic, predetermined and score driven. I prefer the freedom to explore and experience in a sim/game, whatever you like to call it. Maybe I should call it a 'stimulation' rather than a simulation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  4. FirstTimeCreator

    FirstTimeCreator

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    Yah well the more you scale in complexity the more time it takes to complete and test. I have realistic goals I want to accomplish and spending a month just on a flight controller is not one of them. Eventually I want o move on to the proceedual galaxy generation system, scene loader.. GUI sector and galaxy map ect.. Have my work cut out for me already as it is. I'm going to try to make a simplistic realistic flight controller. Want to keep it as simple as possible but functional before moving on. Of course I'll have to add a gravity system to objects in space.. it all just becomes more complex and more work..
     
  5. BoogieD

    BoogieD

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    You should never underestimate the importance of controllers. They are a critical aspect of the user's interaction. Often more important than pretty graphics. If it feels bad to control it usually sucks no matter what else.
    It's probably easier to make a space controller in an environment with no drag or friction than one that acts within a fluid like air or water. I've spent many months semi full time on my flight controller.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
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  6. FirstTimeCreator

    FirstTimeCreator

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    Im not underestimating the importance just saying that I just need it function so i can fly around and test other things. Of course i can come back to it later or possibly have someone else work on it. Each mechanic I implement can be improved, im just going for functional and moving on to other stuff that is integrated into said mechanic so I have an over all view of integration before making improvements.
     
  7. BoogieD

    BoogieD

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    Yeah, fair enough. I often travel by plane to test other things. It keeps my frequent flyer point up. LOL
    I also stale out on a long haul implementation and like a new progressive challenge to keep my mind fresh but not for too long otherwise I lose my bearings.

    There is also the chicken and egg problem. I sometimes reiterate my implementation several times until it encompasses all that is required in the bigger picture. I know when it is right because it gets simpler to understand and work with. Nothing beats a well defined object. Solving a problem is usually done in knowing how to define it properly first. No point doing the nitty-gritty if it's going to be lumped around several times before settling on the final structure.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  8. FirstTimeCreator

    FirstTimeCreator

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    When I first started this project I wrote about 5,000 lines of code and it was basically in about 4 files because i wanted to see if it would work. Then i rewrote it from the ground up and I have about 50 controllers or so because i wanted to break everything down to the smallest amount of code possible without effecting performance. These are the shared controllers on my ships:

    PilotAgent (main loop) (Ship State Controller)
    Clone Controller - handles generation of hidden duplicate model which the player collider controller resides on (ghost collider ship)
    Grid Generator
    Grid Controller - HiVelocity Collision Avoidance Pathfinding System (I designed from scratch)
    Ship Settings
    Ship States
    Engine Settings
    Flight Control - Player Flight Controller
    Navigation Control (Part of the Auto Pilot Navigation System)
    Throttle Control - Used by both AutoPilot + Player Flight Control
    AutoPilot - Uses Navigation Control + Grid Controller (when collision avoidance active)
    HyperDrive Control
    GUIControl - Handles Text output + GUI event handlers
    Room Control - LOD system for enabling interior rooms as player traverses ship
    Alert Control - Changes Lights/Emission throughout ship

    And controllers for DoorAnimations hooked into RoomControl as well as lifts and elevator controller.

    If you think walking around on moving ships and traversing them seamlessly (walking onto a shuttle flying it out and landing on a station or moon) is simple you are kidding yourself lol. A guy made it sound earlier like you could do it with one line of code lmao.

    The autopilot navigation system is used by both the player and will be used by NPC ships as well to navigate so that is actually a big step done already. Pretty soon ill be setting up 250 ships near a station and they will be flying around and docking with the station as well, they will wait in a line and dock one after the other using a auto-pilot docking system im setting up using waypoints. They will attempt to avoid each other during docking as well.

    The way I have designed it, when you enter another ship (on board ship/shuttle or fighter craft) or an external ship (in space, in your fleet) it switches between PilotAgents giving the player control of the ship while staying active in which the AutoPilot system takes over) Later AI will be plugged into this system.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  9. VIC20

    VIC20

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    Great. Describe your drag based mode as “easy mode“ and you will see there will be a lot of people who prefer to use the harder way.
     
  10. VIC20

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    People are happy when you do as good as X-Plane (blade element theory). This is enough, feels convincing, is based on science and works great on really old machines. (like from 20 years ago) It is not hard to do that, you just have to read all the physics. It looks like you already have done this part.

    I made a flight dynamics model 7 years ago which works like X-Plane. It took me a few weeks to do this. Actually I use X-Plane to precalculate some things. (I still have to create an aircraft editor, I still plan to finish that FDM some day). At 1:17 you can see a visualization of the forces.

     
  11. FirstTimeCreator

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    I'm making a space sim, the geometry of the object in flight is meaningless. Only it's mass and force of thrusters + thruster location on the RB is a primary factor. What I will do is setup Force Contact points with Direction even though my shuttle doesnt have thrusters. I will ad a particle effect where the thrusters are present until i get model designed for simulated space flight (with physical thrusters on the model). Since there is zero drag the player will need to apply a counter force to stop spin or activate a "stabilizer" which will also be force based through the thruster points which will apply force in the opposing direction (opposite thruster) in order to slow the ship's spin.

    Yah what i will be doing will be different than what is in the video since I am dealing with 0 drag and you aren't with a plane.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  12. VIC20

    VIC20

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    I replied to BoogieD.
     
  13. FirstTimeCreator

    FirstTimeCreator

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    Well you convinced me to go "full" on simulation ;) Sure did add alot more work to my plate for sure. I believe I can pull it off though ;).

    Since i want to have 300 ships in a scene I may be forced to move to 2018.3 to take advantage of the hyperthreading (Job processes) if script usage becomes an issue with 300 ships. I'm definitely interested in that new feature.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  14. Ryiah

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    Just keep in mind your target audience may not necessarily want a "full" simulation.
     
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  15. BoogieD

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    It's not only the drag thing. Winged flight in fluids require lift to oppose the forces that keep it from falling. The lift forces and drag are very dynamic depending on the shape and attitude of the craft and wings against the flow of air. The reality of stalls and spins are expected to happen in a good simulation.
    Spacecraft simulation on the other hand is just like farting in the right direction to get an opposed reaction. I suspect it is relatively simple to implement. Docking and changing from flying to walking on a moving space station is an entirely different subject.
     
  16. BoogieD

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    300 ships turning up? Is there going to be a space ball game on or something. Won't the docking bay for refreshments get a little congested?
     
  17. FirstTimeCreator

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    Docking is easy, docking with collision avoidance.. a little harder.

    Auto pilot docker is easy using preset way points into the landing / docking area.

    Nah im building a 4x Strategy game prototype, fleet combat simulator. With sector map similar to x3, think x3 as a conquest game but not a trading game with better fleet combat command functionality and from the bridge of the starship, I realize they are building something similiar right now at egosoft but they always get it wrong ALWAYS. The ships that will be docking will be more for immersion than anything else.

    Im more interested in a simple resource system, no trading focused on hardcore fleet combat strategy with sector based conquest (think risk in space). There will be up to 300 ships because I want up to 50 capital ships and 100 fighters per scene per faction, with "units in reserve jumping in as ships are destroyed".

    The board game will take place in a sub simulation on the galaxy map and be translated to world space when the player enters a sector. If a battle isn't going on or the battle is small there will be alot of civilian traffic (the player will be able to attack and kill as well for resources) ;) along with capturing planets and stations in sectors.

    I am also re-using the system for the player to use, both npc ships and players will use the same functionality.

    (there will be fleet moral so killing civilians will effect that unless you are a certain race, a few of the factions will actually become happy when you slaughter the innocent)

    My concern isnt the number of ships, ive already stress tested unity with 500 ships. The issue may be from the number of bullets but I have a plan. They will be transform based no RB's.

    And If there is an issue in unity 5 ill migrate to 18 and use hyperthreading on the bullets since there will probably be 10 to 30,000 going off at any give time in a battle.

    I did this last august, redesigned the collision avoidance system like 3 times before i got it working pretty dang good :) My current system is actually completely different than what you see in the video. This was my first attempt.


    Here is a cool thing I did as well, unrelated:



    I was trying to figure out how to light volumetric clouds without using lights, figured it out in this vid but since moved on to my space sim project:
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  18. BrewNCode

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    Why not both?
     
  19. FirstTimeCreator

    FirstTimeCreator

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    Both? trading and combat? I'm only one person and I have to get the prototype done in a reasonable time frame since im living in total poverty working on it full time with a hope and a prayer that i can create something worthy of being kickstarted. Though I can write the software... and produce a functional game on my own probably within a year and a half, I will need professional models designed for the game. Models with interiors that will take alot of time to create.

    I'm a professional web developer (Lamp) just sick of it and want a career in game development, whatever it takes.
     
  20. BrewNCode

    BrewNCode

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    ok
     
  21. Arowx

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    What about letting the players make the ships, Unity is adding Pro-builder or you could go with a more modular system like Kerbal Space Program?
     
  22. FirstTimeCreator

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    This is possible however i would needs models for that. Currently my plans for weapon systems are turrets. Turrets which will be on fighters and on capital ships which will use the same systems.

    there will be multiple weapon types, lasers, rail guns, ect. I have to limit it though because you have to be realistic about what one person can build.

    What you are talking about would happen on a successful kick start. I am building a full prototype to show people what is possible. A sector and galaxy system, the ability to traverse it, mock faction system and demonstration battles.

    The fact is, I can only go so far with sketchup models. I'm hoping that if I do enough, make it awsome enough.. and make the prototype playable/downloadable with what i have to work with people will want to support a kick start campaign to hire modelers and additional programmers.

    I will need modelers,multiplayer programmers, texture/shader artists ect. for a full game.
     
  23. FirstTimeCreator

    FirstTimeCreator

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    Let's revive this thread shall we?

    Would you call this a simulation:? This is a zero drag space flight controller. it has like .01 to prevent the ship from spinning forever, however i can remove that and it won't change anything other than the ship will spin forever if you release flight controls.

    This includes also the Gforce simulation i am working on. (Hopefully I can call it a simulation?).

    My eventual goal is to combine Simulation + Game. The "game" will be part simulation and part arcade shooter, since there will be item pickups. (NPC ships will drop fuel, ammo, weapons ect).

    I'm going for a somewhat realistic flight controller with 0 drag as well a ship resource system that every function of the ship will tie into which will create "consequences" and challenges for the player.




     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  24. BoogieD

    BoogieD

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    Looking good. A minor point, perhaps a RCS propulsion sound for rotation?
     
  25. zenGarden

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    MSG5 is an infiltration game, i find it very arcade, it's big connected areas with enemies spawned on those zones , it's not a real open world and not a simulation.

    Fallout is not a simulation, it has dungeons and enemies at specific zones, and very few merchants traveling around some world paths.

    The only game we could call a bit simulation is GTA with it's traffic system and the police system. Otherwise it's characters are very basic, they patrol or flee, they don't have big dialog, they can't buy food weapons or clothes, they can't fight or help others.

    I don't think open world means simulation or means it's a best game.
    Most open worlds are boring and very repetitive after some hours discovering the whole map.
    Witcher 3 is an amazing game, but i felt it had too much small repetitive towns, too much repetitive loot, despite some few good secondary quests.

    I found God of War that is not open world as you can't go everywhere on the map, lot more enjoyable than latest open world games.
     
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  26. FirstTimeCreator

    FirstTimeCreator

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    What I am building is open world, however it's not a typical open world space game. It will be a 4x real-time strategy game in which the player can choose to fight in combat. Technically you will be able to play this game strictly from the galaxy map interface if you wanted too and just play the strategy element.

    There will be incentives and consequences however for when the player chooses to either engage in combat or not.

    There will be roaming "entities" in space that are simulated in real-time. These will range from individual creatures / entities to herds and flocks of them. They will be able to show up even when you are engaged in combat with enemy ships and fleets.

    Some for example will be fuel parasites that hunt fuel drops as well as fuel inside space ships and will attempt to latch onto your craft and steal your fuel.

    Running out of fuel won't completely "strand" you but it will have consequences. not only for the player but for the ships in your "fleets" as well.

    Anyway the game isn't what i was referring too, it was more the flight controller.

    My question is how complex does it need to be to be considered a simulation. Does the fact that is a zero-drag flight controller which makes it somewhat realistic make it a simulation and if not what would it "take" for it to gain that title.
     
  27. FirstTimeCreator

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    Thanks, yah i havent added propulsion sound FX yet, still working on it. I just got the Gforce SIM to a point i was ready to show it but it's still rough around the edges.

    I probably won't polish it until later on. I am going to ahead and add the propulsion sound FX but then i am starting on the item pickup system and finishing off the ship resource systems, hull/shield.

    And ill build a bunch various item pickups and test it before moving back the AI systems /path finding ect. Then ill build a test and have the AI ships attempt to fly around collect all of the items as a test run.

    Quite abit of work to do before i get to doing weapons systems.

    Also you may want to keep in mind that my AI ships will need be able to chase the player at high speeds through this complex geometry asteroid structure without getting stuck and with a low crash rate and with high fluidity (realism).

    I have already accomplished this in a previous prototype in a video on the youtube channel. However now that I'm building the actual game and not a prototype I am going to improve it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  28. dogzerx2

    dogzerx2

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    I like simulation games that allow you to manage resources, profits and expenses. I just remembered I spent a ridiculous amount of time of my life playing Uncharted Waters 2: New Horizons for DOS.
     
  29. FirstTimeCreator

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    In galactic armada you won't just be a space ship pilot, you will be the leader of a space empire.

    There will be 3 "core" simulations in this game which will be :

    -Empire Simulation with empire resource management which includes a "morale" and rebellion simulation.
    -Space combat, fleet to fleet combat simulation with tactics and fleet "orders" systems.
    -Space flight controller simulation with ship resource management

    the way I am building/designing the game, the sims will start out simple as possible and be expanded into complex simulations over time as i build and test individual modular simulation systems.

    The way I am building will allow me to take advantage of being a solo developer to more rapidly design and deploy these systems much faster than a "large studio" ever could.

    Meaning, I can accomplish a large-scale game in a relatively short amount of time.

    However, there will be no story, i might at the end add something of a short intro story, but the initial game will be a real-time strategy sandbox like most 4x real time strategy games that you know and love.

    A story won't be out of the question for a later expansion, however after i release a single player game, my focus will turn multiplayer if i can raise the funds to hire additional programmers.

    If the game doesn't do well enough but does well enough to support me personally, i may not focus on multiplayer instead focus on improvements and adding story line elements /random story driven events and more procedural diversity to the sandbox galaxy.
     
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  30. FirstTimeCreator

    FirstTimeCreator

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    :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
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  31. Murgilod

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    Start your own thread, dude.
     
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  32. FirstTimeCreator

    FirstTimeCreator

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    You came here just to be troll. Stop following me around. Seriously. It gets old.
     
  33. LaneFox

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    Uhh, no.

    This is deliriously off topic. Start a new thread.
     
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  34. Murgilod

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    I'm not following you around. I clicked on a thread I was interested in and it was nothing but you using the thread as a devlog and asking for sound effects.
     
  35. FirstTimeCreator

    FirstTimeCreator

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    There happy. Stare at the smiley face.
     
  36. FirstTimeCreator

    FirstTimeCreator

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    How about you do something constructive for a change and respond to my statement that WAS on topic which is why i revived this dead old thread.

    Which.. had to do with the argument of what was a "simulation" and what is a "game" and at what point does the game become a simulation.

    "Would you call this a simulation:? This is a zero drag space flight controller. "
     
  37. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Work in progress is the place to show and discuss your work, not dig up old threads on a general topic to talk about it.
    Closed for necro and off topic.
     
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