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Do you consider yourself a geek/ anti-geek or neutral?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by yoonitee, Aug 11, 2015.

  1. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    We all know its bad to stereotype. But the amount of times I've been to game studios and people are playing dungeons and dragons or have a big stack of comic books by their desk, or the game testers are in heavy metal t-shirts and beards etc. I now know all the stereotypes are true 90% of the time.

    Actually, a lot of the time I find the programmers (so-called computer geeks) are least into so-called geek culture of comic books, dungeons and dragons, manga and dressing up like wizards in the woods etc.

    Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind a bit of manga, I've bought the box set of Ghost in the Shell. But I don't think that defines me as a human being.

    I just think there is more to life than media and what media you're into (whether the media be books, films, games(!), etc.). There's the outdoors for example. And going outside when it's sunny. It's part of what made me want to become an indie rather than work for a studio.

    I just wondered, in this forum, for example how many people identify themselves with geek culture and all that goes with it, how many are neutral on the subject and how many don't like to be called a geek and proactively disassociate with those things?

    Do you think this "geek culture" is prevalent more in AAA studios or say more web or mobile firms? Is it more prevalent in programmers, artists or designers?

    For anyone who is getting into the game industry, how do you envisage game studios? Do you have a stereotype in mind?

    By the way, not judging. Anyone's entitled to identify anyway they like or not if they choose.

    But like it or not. Once in a game company I can guarantee you will encounter this culture and, particularly if the boss is into this, it may help you to know about it!
     
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  2. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    If I had to identify with any subculture I believe the closest would be the hacker subculture that was prevalent at MIT during the 1970s. I generally go with the term "geek" though because of how the media has twisted the term to have negative connotations and because the term "hacker" is not something you apply to yourself.

    I definitely enjoy trying to understand the internals of computer hardware and software, playing the MMO equivalent of D&D (though I wouldn't be adverse to trying tabletop), and generally avoiding nature.

    TL;DR - I'm a geek. :p
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2015
  3. calmcarrots

    calmcarrots

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    Everyone at my school sees me as a regular dude I guess. Everyone knows I program things and people get surprised when they see me for the first time and think that I'm not a geek. I don't see myself as a geek either so no, I'm not a geek
     
  4. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

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    Interestingly, I don't identify with the geek "culture" at all. But when it comes to programming and technology I totally geek out. I just don't get into anime, DnD, or any of that stuff. When I was in high school (about 17 years ago) I played Baseball, Football, was a sprinter on the track team and was on the school Powerlifting team. I was fairly popular and actually was prom king.

    I played a few computer games... Battle Chess, basically anything from Sierra / Dynamix, and a few other oddball ones but that was about it. I never even owned a console until the PS3 was released. But I've been a programming nerd forever. I was partying and narrowly avoiding trouble on the weekends, but on weeknights I was parked in front of a PC, on dialup internet, on various IRC channels. I was writing little "games" in QBasic, writing utility apps in Visual Basic 4 and writing chat bots for the pIRCH IRC client which was based on Turbo Pascal.

    Even in college, I was a big part of the party crowd, always playing basketball at the rec center, but many nights tearing it up on my PC playing various versions of Age of Empires with my "clan" which consisted of my roommate and one other guy from my floor (we never lost a match).

    As I got older I calmed down... no more partying for me. I don't even drink really except very occasionally. But I play softball, I'm learning to play my guitar, and while I'm friends with a lot of folks I work with I don't really associate with any but a couple outside of work. Most of my friends are very non-technical. But I do still love to just waste a way a weekend hammering out code in front of my pc. :)
     
  5. Tom212

    Tom212

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    I personally have found it difficult to label myself definitively a geek in the past, while I happen to have a number of geeky interests I also have plenty of interests that are considered the opposite, mostly outdoor pursuits ranging from skiing, diving and rock climbing.

    When I was younger I was defiently more reluctant to show that I had those 'geeky' interests around people who I thought wouldn't appreciate them. But after a few years travelling and generally maturing I'm now very open about it and often tell people I'm a geek.

    I find it's a way of sharing an interest without then having to discuss it. If I did, I know I'd likely bore the other person, its more a way of showing that I do in fact have interests therefore I'm not a boring sod, however we probably don't share it and you certainly don't want to hear me rant about them :).

    But at the same time, for this reason I've started to make a more active effort in moving in some geekier circles to try and find people with similar interests. I find myself spending alot of time with people who's interests encompass football and drinking and at times I miss having people to geek out with :D.
     
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  6. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    I'm the dork the Unity Forums deserve, not the dork that they need.
     
  7. Ony

    Ony

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    For a very long time, all of my life, actually, I wrestled with the question: Who am I? Where do I fit in? What group can I call my own? This simple question caused me much anguish. It was a question I could not answer. Every time I thought I'd possibly found where I belonged, I'd soon realize that no, that is not me.

    One day, about a year ago, this question crossed my mind once again, and once again I struggled, and once again I got depressed, and then... It occurred to me. The answer. So I wrote it down, taped it to my wall beside my desk, and it's been there since. Forgive the potato quality.



    Am I a geek? No. I'm just me. The only thing I know how to be. And that suits me fine. Every time I feel like I don't fit in, and it gets overwhelming, I look at that sign, and I can breathe.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2015
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  8. Tom212

    Tom212

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    I guess it depends on how you see the term, like yoonitee said people are about more than just the media they're into. I find the term geek to simply be one colour people can use to paint/describe who they are. I personally use it as a tool to describe my avid interest in something, I don't consider myself to belong to a culture or faction.

    Besides the term geek is used as a blanketing term to encompass an endless list of interests, most of which people only share a couple of.
     
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  9. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    As I've grown older, I've increasingly found this to be true. When we're immature in something, we tend to want to make sense of that domain. We do that by creating classifications, and assigning things to those classifications. Inevitably, we encounter cases where the classifications break down, and as a result we discover the true mechanics of whatever it is we're discovering. I find myself currently undergoing this in my study of game design, but it applies to social endeavors too.

    Once I was a nerd. Then, I wasn't sure. Now, I'm just me; I'll treat you as you if you'll do the same for me.

    If I need a label? I'm Batman.
     
  10. Ony

    Ony

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    Ok, well I didn't want to just come out with it, but since you took the lead... I'm Catwoman.
     
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  11. Whippets

    Whippets

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    Don't like manga or comics or super heroes; but since the early 80s, I've been into electronics, science, and computing. 100% Geek and very proud of it.
     
  12. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    The "I am just me" is definitely... me. I don't get into all of the cultural crap, politics, societal expectations and so forth. I do roam around in my jeans and t shirts most of the time and that is just because that suits me. (bit of a pun there).

    I've basically heard from other people that I am definitely not what they expected. lol These days developers are as likely as not to be dressed in suits. I say let the people have their comics, D&D (actually I used to like that a long time ago and still do like D&D style video games), Manga, whatever floats their boat. If it's what they want then more power to them.

    Just don't expect me to have any of that crap unless I just happen to want to have some of that crap. Then it is ok. :)
     
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  13. Master-Frog

    Master-Frog

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    I always thought of myself as Beast from the X-Men.
     
  14. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    I'm a geek, and always have been. And I am old enough to have lived through the time where geek/nerd was a bad thing.

    As far as stereotypes, I have never worked at a company that didn't have at least one D&D campaign running and usually more. (often regular Magic games as well.) In fact, here, it is formalized by the company. Wednesday is "Game" night. Beer and pizza at 4:30, followed by games. There are rooms dedicated to LoL, Poker and D&D and then about 5-10 random board game sessions. It is the one day where relaxation supersedes deadlines. No one can be required to work after 5pm. Its actually gotten big enough that we occasionally have special guests. A couple of weeks ago the very awesome nerd Andy Weir hung with us and played board games. Lunch is also game heavy, you can always find a magic/blokus/cribbage/card game around.

    I think to a degree it is just a common mindset. Making games is a rough vocation, and the people who tend to make it , by nature, have a serious passion about games in all their incarnations. Even producers and folks not exactly tech geeks, have that spirit. There is a huge fantasy football group here (D&D for sports geeks). We all kind of eat/live/breath games.
     
  15. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    That is interesting. Do you think it is mostly the artists and designers who are into these board games or the programmers too? Because from my experience and what's said above. It's like the "computer-geeks" are more into hacker culture. And maybe would rather, I dunno, be hacking a robot in their lunch break in order to bring about the singulairty or watching science fiction? To put it another way and to stereotype profusely:

    artists/designers --> fantasy, manga, comics, D&D, beards, emos, super heroes,
    programmers --> science fiction, the matrix, robots, clean-shaven, goths, eccentric, superstrings
    audio people --> ???

    What I think is there are two or more distinct cultures here and that people use the term "geek" to combine the two whereas in actual fact they are as different as sci-fi is to fantasy. (OK, so to an outsider maybe they're the same thing). Also if one "culture" is formally recognised by the bosses then this can annoy the other culture. (Well programmers are never really credited for their work anyway so they're used to it!

    Heheh just saw this video:
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
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  16. wccrawford

    wccrawford

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    "Geek" has always had negative connotations. Modern geeks have stolen the word and chosen to use it as a positive instead. And that's fine.

    But I've always identified more with "nerds" and their intellectual pursuits at the expense of looking "cool". It's also a negative word, taken and used as a sign of pride.

    In truth, though, I care a lot more about personal appearance and fitting in with mainstream society than those groups do. I tend to not fit in any 1 category because of it, and that's fine, too. I like what I like, and anyone who can't tolerate that isn't my friend.
     
  17. antislash

    antislash

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    what is a geek ? something like a box label you must have in life to be considered as "existing" .... ?
    goth, emo, hipster, hacker, punk, normcore etc etc etc , those categories only exist in contradiction with others...
    get rid of any label, be you and you 'll find whho you are..
    and BTW geek means nothing, people often self-define as geeks like "hey look, i have super powers!"
     
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  18. frosted

    frosted

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    +1
     
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  19. XGundam05

    XGundam05

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    @yoonitee those aren't even marginally accurate stereotypes >.> Most male programmers I know (including myself) have a beard or mustache of some sort. Most programmers I know watch anime*, and read Sanderson/Jordan. Additionally, many of them are thoroughly invested in either the DC or Marvel universe. Heck, at my buddies office, they're all full blown, self-professed otaku.

    Now, that is in addition to building robots, reading Gibson (which I still have yet to do >.<), or Scalzi, etc., watching Farscape/SG/Star Trek/Star Wars.

    *OT: Gate has been amazing so far :D

    Edit: I apparently can't read "beard" without hearing "a great big bushy beard" from Hot Fuzz anymore >.>
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
  20. dogzerx2

    dogzerx2

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    I don't like popular interests, don't get out much.
    Hard to talk in groups, where everyone can't wait to say their thing, about subjects I usually don't know/care about much. it's really a lotta work try to fit one line in the conversation so they don't start thinking you're a serial killer or something.

    I've met many geeks, from people who knew all anime cartoons, played dice role play, dressed with colorful geek outfits, etc. But I felt the same way there as in any other social groups. :-\
     
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  21. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    I think you can go in two ways when you join one of these companies. You can either embrace the culture. Join the lunchtime D&D group. Put little models of superheroes on your desk. Grow a beard. Get some ironic t-shirts or a plaid shirt. You can assimilate into the Borg or resist. But if you resist you probably won't be very happy in the company.

    I know people who said to me "I need to embrace my geeky side by going to sci-fi conventions." Fair enough if that's what you want to do and you're not doing it just to fit into some pre-defined stereotype.

    Unfortunately, try as I might, I can't get into comic books and superheroes (I tried watching the Avengers but it just looked like Power Rangers for grown-ups). I smiled politely as the boss kindly put some miniature figures on my desk (and didn't retort with "thank you, but no I'm a grown man.").

    So I think, if you're not into this culture and don't identify with being a "geek" you may be less happy at a games company than those who embrace the culture who will absolutely love it. Even if you absolutely love making games.

    Again, it depends on the company and how far the culture is "recognised" and dictated by the bosses. e.g. if the boss has decreed that wednesday is superhero day and everyone should come dressed up as their favourite superhero(!)
     
  22. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Here is some evidence for you to judge me for yourself.

    This is how I spent last Friday night

    Larping.jpg

    This is what I normally pack for a long weekend or holiday. Its less then half of my collection.

    Board games.jpg

    I haven't seen the ant man movie yet. Nor have I watched the latest Avengers.
     
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  23. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    Dude you should totally add a game called Munchkin to the game collection.
     
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  24. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Got it. Top of the middle pile. Its not one of my favorites, too light and random for me. But my wife loves it. So I end up playing it a lot. In the right mood the game can be hilarious.
     
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  25. XGundam05

    XGundam05

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    Dagorhir or other? Man I need to get back into Dag. We hit like trucks, and there's nothing like running up inside a polearm with a short sword and an axe >.> Had a couple guys who used to do reenactment for a living, specialized in halberds and greatswords. They were so much fun to fight with/against. I even still have my vambraces I had made to protect my fingers so I could still program come Monday morning...dangit @BoredMormon >.<

    /endOffTopic
     
  26. Teila

    Teila

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    Geek has negative connotations? Really? I am the parent of teens and they LOVE to be called Geeks. It seems to be the in thing to be these days. Geeks are the ones who grow up and have really good jobs. They are into cool things like video games, astronomy, science, and chess. We have an entire homeschooling group full of geeks and everyone of them are great kids, socialize well, and enjoy a variety of stuff...from DnD, to physics, to anime, to art, photography, and playing the piano. Oh..and my beautiful eldest daughter..she only dates Geeks.

    I think the commonality is that they are all smart, don't care about status, and don't judge others based on their hobbies or interests. And yeah, I can confirm, they are all Geeks.

    Nerd, on the other hand, is negative. It brings of thoughts of some antisocial person who never comes out of the basement, can't get along with others, and absolutely has no idea of the social norms. When I was young, geeks did not exist and all we had were nerds, some of them very similar to Geeks today. Fortunately, over the years, Geeks separated from Nerds.

    I was never a Nerd or a Geek. I partied in college, had lots of friends, was a science major/grad student, but spent my free time sailing and hanging out with my friends. But as I got older, I definitely became a Geek. It was always there, just suppressed because of "Nerds" and my inability to relate to the many of the "Nerd" requirements.

    Being a Geek has freed my inner self and I can now make games, play DnD (although I prefer horror type WoD games), role play, read Wikipedia for hours at a time, and read Sci Fi and Fantasy books if I so choose to do so...or even those boring non-fiction books on Medieval engineering.

    Ahh...life is nice as a Geek. :)
     
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  27. tiggus

    tiggus

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    What zombie described is probably one of the biggest draws to me for working for an actual game company. I love playing board/games and hanging out with other people who do. As you get older it can be harder to find that kind of interaction so having it ready made for you with your coworkers seems like a win-win.

    The lame ping pong table they put in one of the conference rooms to make our company feel more hip and "valley" is just sad.
     
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  28. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Other. We use a hit point system rather then loosing limbs, and have no equipment damage. Hits to the torso are 3 points, any where else are 1. Your total hit points are determined by the amount of armor you are wearing, anywhere from unarmed at 3 points to 15 for full plate armor . You remain at full capacity until you completely run out at hit points, at which point you are dead.

    Our combat seems to be more restricted to, we aren't allowed any contact other then with a weapon. No grappling, shields can't be used offensively ect.

    We normally get about 200 people out for Friday night battles. They also do full weekend events, that include a lot more of the roleplaying stuff. Due to family commitments I haven't actually done one of these yet.

    This thread never was on topic to begin with, so I don't mind wandering a little. ;) There are a couple of other game devs that come along to Sword Craft. I also got invited to go down to the Arcade to play board games with them after work. So it seems like games of all sorts are common in the industry.

    I'm actually tempted to go down to the arcade tomorrow and pretend I'm a real indie developer for a day before I go back to making chemicals at my new job on Monday.
     
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  29. Teila

    Teila

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    I belong to a large gaming group, DnD, Pathfinder, World of Darkness, Savage Worlds, tons of board games, mostly Eurogames.

    We have had lots of techy people in the group, several programmers, IT folks, etc, as well as police officers, writers, artists, psychologists, retail folks, a pianist, a medical technologist, a nurse, even a woman going through her ministry training. So not sure that gaming, whether it be board games, tabletop or video games is really limited to as small of a group of people as you think. I have even brought my very ungeeky lady friends to the meetings and they have loved it.

    Age-wise we have 10-60's...so that doesn't really matter either. Games are fun, a great way to socialize and a fantastic place to just laugh. Laughter makes you healthier. :)

    And...btw, the area I live in is very southern US, bible belt, conservative. I am sure it is even more diverse in other areas.
     
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  30. PenguinEmporium

    PenguinEmporium

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    From growing up in a homeschooling community, geeks and nerds are very common there but they aren't complete stereotypes. They tend to look normal or like the average highschooler.

    Many homeschoolers love board games. I mean week long board game sessions such as Axis and Allies or D&D. We also enjoy tons of sci-fi films and older sci-fi novels. The biggest separation I've seen though between the geeks and nerds is whether they want to build what they geek about. No crap, I've seen so many Red-Alert fans build working Tesla-Towers for Senior projects.

    As for myself, I am more nerd than geek but can really geek about games.
     
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  31. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Yeah, there has been a massive power shift since I was in highschool. It was started to be acknowledged that the smart kids were the ones that would end up running the show when I was in school, but a lot of the 'cool' group was still dominated by athletes. By all accounts from everyone I talk to today that has completely flipped around.

    Shows like The Big Bang Theory have helped raise the profile of intellectuals and academics. But I think the biggest shift is you actually have to be reasonably techy to actually function in the social environment now. Its no longer centered around sports, its shifted to digital with Facebook and text messaging and YouTube and the like. So it kind of makes sense that those who can handle themselves best on tech are becoming the central figures in the high school hierarchy.

    Just thinking about it makes me glad I'm past it all now.
     
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  32. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    OK, I know geek is the new cool and all that. But come on. This made me chuckle. Chess cool? You are like the mum who tells his kid, "no, those glasses make you look more handsome". Fair enough be proud of being a geek. But when it gets into the realm of total denial of reality...
     
  33. Teila

    Teila

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    Not surprising, I guess, since there is less bullying and status competition. And yeah, they look normal. You should see my lovely daughters in their prom dresses. :) One of them is a crazy good dancer (self taught) and had the entire dance floor open for her do one of her "shuffle" dances..in a pretty dress. Confidence is to me a defining quality for a true Geek. You know you are different and are proud of it.
     
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  34. Teila

    Teila

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    Chess is cool! You would be very surprised how many kids learn chess these days and love it! lol I was as shocked and surprised as you were...especially since I never mastered the game myself, just not logical enough. :)

    Trust me, unless you have teens, you really can't live in their reality. It is a world which only allows me to hover around the edges. I know that when someone finds out I have a kid who plays chess, they get all excited. We often have several chess games going on at the same time.

    As my beautiful (and honestly, I am not biased) 15 year old daughter said to me just now when I asked her..."Chess is awesome!"
     
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  35. tiggus

    tiggus

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    The thing I am curious about is the "brogrammers" you hear so much about in the media. You would think working in IT for 20+ years I would have run into one by now but so far nada. Yet I read all the time about the toxic brogrammers who make hostile work environments for women etc. Very hard for me to accept this is a thing when all the programmers I know are pretty smart and what would be considered "nerdy" guys.
     
  36. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    The world has turned on it's head. I blame Harry Potter. It reminds me of the final scene from "Revenge of the Nerds".

    Anyway I've decided to be a hipster. So if being geek is cool. Then I need something else uncool to be. As is the hipster way. :cool:

    There may have been a power shift. But I bet all the cheerleaders are still dating the jocks and not throwing themselves at the chess club. But maybe the chess club girls are the new cheerleaders. WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO?

    As for brogrammers. While no male programmer I've met has been "macho". About 90% have been quite misogynistic. Has anyone ever played Grand Theft Auto for goodness sake. But then again it's probably the same in any garage or factory where a lot of men are together building stuff. And I'm sure if you go into any place where a lot of women work together you'd here just as bad stuff being said.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
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  37. Teila

    Teila

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    Well, I hear about murderers in the media all time too, but i have never met one. ;)

    My guess is they are a very small number but just get a lot of attention because they are unusual, just like anything else. The loud, brash, crazy folks get the most media attention. Toxic people occur in small numbers in every industry, in every social environment. They are there...even if we don't come across them. I have met a few although they were not well accepted by others so usually had little impact.

    I think a lot of this is coming from internet environments where people tend to say things they never would in a non-virtual situation. Also, those chats seem to cause "group think" so one starts, and other tag along to be cool, or noticed, or get attention, whatever. Most of what I have read about this stuff has been Twitter or IRC channels.
     
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  38. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Joke is on them when everyone gets older and becomes less healthy (read: fat). :p
     
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  39. XGundam05

    XGundam05

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    Also, discussing nerds and geeks and appearances and such, I was friends with a guy in HS who was a weight-lifting nerd. As in, he found a weight set before a computer, all the same other "nerdy/geeky" hobbies, but the dude could curl 110 lbs with one arm...easily.
     
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  40. Teila

    Teila

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    My husband is a mechanical engineer, definitely a geek. He doesn't play games, but loves to program and build stuff and fix stuff. lol He reads geeky books, watches geeky TV shows. All my lady friends think he is very handsome.

    What makes him so great, and this is true of many geeks, is that he doesn't know he is handsome! Doesn't even notice all the ladies (we have lots of single older women here) flirting with him at parties. lol I adore him.

    That is why my daughter dates a geeky techy guy. He is like her dad. lol
     
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  41. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Yup. +1 for teenagers liking chess these days. We were running a church youth programme for a while in NZ. Its surprising how many of them got excited when they saw the board in the living room.

    Harry Potter was certainly part of the shift. That came out when I was at highschool. At the same time personal cell phones, text messaging, home internet and gaming consoles were all in the middle of becoming a thing.

    The thing is, dating the cheerleaders is no longer considered the pinnacle of social achievement. Boys are wanting girls that are smart and pretty now. Your chess club girl is not far wrong.
     
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  42. tiggus

    tiggus

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    That is not what I am talking about, the brogrammer is portrayed as basically a frat boy. I have never once met a programmer and gotten that "frat boy" vibe but maybe it is just the companies I have worked at.
     
  43. Teila

    Teila

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    Having met quite a few frat boys in my younger years, I would agree with you. I can't imagine the average programmer having any similarity with a college frat boy...but then who knows. Maybe frat boys are becoming programmers these days. :)
     
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  44. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    Toga! Toga! Quine! Quine! Monad! Monad! Tuple! Tuple!

    ...Crap, going to go scrub FaceBook now...
     
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  45. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    I wish I was American and could go to frat parties like in Animal House. :( Except I wouldn't like the hazing thing they do in fraternities. That's just weird.
     
  46. Ony

    Ony

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    Uhm... Those things (chess, astronomy, etc.) are cool as hell.
     
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  47. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    Only if James Bond was doing them with a dry Martini in one hand, a woman called Busty O'Cleavage on the other, with 30 minutes left to win the game, defeat Dr No, dodge the man-eating sharks, deactivate the nuclear bomb and save the world, all without crumpling his dinner jacket. Then (and only then) can chess be considered cool.
     
  48. tiggus

    tiggus

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    I think you are out of touch with what people find attractive nowadays. Neil deGrasse Tyson seems cool as hell to me.
     
  49. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    Next you'll be telling me (late) Patrick Moore was cool. (The British version of Tyson):



    I think what you mean is you like Tyson despite him being an astronomer not because of it.
     
  50. Teila

    Teila

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    What if you are playing chess with a very cute girl? :) Gotta agree with Tiggus, you are rather old fashioned in your idea of cool! My kids adore Tyson and read books by Michio Kaku, no prompting from me, honestly. They share them between friends and I didn't even know they were reading them at first.

    I am not into astronomy for the most part other than looking at the stars through a telescope or cuddling under a meteor shower. But my kids are really into it as are their friends.

    I like Tyson because he makes astronomy accessible to the average person and to my teens. I wouldn't know anything about him if not for that...so yes, I like him but know of him because he is an astronomer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
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