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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by darshie1976, Mar 13, 2019.
I'm not allowing you, I'm encouraging you.
Much like how you ignore all the people here telling you that you're wrong?
I feel borderline obsession with "ignoring" here. I know this kind of behavior, so it is not new to me.
Thanks for ignoring all the times I did praise your comments. Or maybe you confuse ignoring with not agreeing. I appreciate a comment, and acknowledge it all the time.
You said you could just "ignore this audience". I'm saying that "eventually you will run out of people to ignore".
Wrong on what, exactly?
I made few statements about what I tried or saw trying to reduce piracy; ADHD kicked in in some cases and replies went all over. I can still cut probably 80% of the posts here as irrelevant or off topic, and leave what is relevant to the post here, just to say that we are going all over the place.
This is just a waste of efforts to try to establish any sort of logical exchange with some users. So I just move on and see if anyone else has anything to say that is relevant to the topic. If this is "being wrong", then sure, whatever you say.
If you don't want a discussion don't post on a forum. If you want straight answers for solutions go to Stack Exchange or another similar Q&A system that discourages people from telling you you are approaching the problem in the wrong way.
What would you suggest then? Continue to engage on tangent or side topics, or reiterate that some concepts has been deemed in agreement and as "pillars" of the topic regarding piracy?
I appreciated the comments based on personal or 3rd party experiences; then if I do not agree with a solution or another, I just move on. I simply find a waste of time to speak with anyone that goes down his/her rabbit hole; that does not mean the whole forum.
I did generalize, when someone else did generalize.
I edited the post and pointed towards Stack Exchange. They're only about Q&A. They'll only discuss in comments and the comments are usually safe to ignore.
If a discussion means "listen to me, I am right you are wrong", then sorry to disappoint you but that is youtube comment section.
My original post did not require an answer, if someone does not have either a personal experience to post or an experience through 3rd party. I did clearly ask to anyone that did ship a product or is about to ship one, what is his/her strategy; after posting my examples of methods to reduce piracy.
Again, not sure if there is a problem with language or with comprehension; if there is a post and someone has nothing to say, beside their personal opinions, it is not a crime to just avoid to post there and move on.
What do you think you've been saying this whole time?
As in an entire thread full of developers experienced with dealing with DRM in the game space. We have experience with 3rd party DRM and it does nothing but waste money and annoy legitimate customers.
And what is important, not only dev opinion is critical here, but also such customers opinion. All of us are customers of one, or other applications. So become less relevant, if we are devs or not, if seeking for a full picture, rather than biased halve trues.
This is your interpretation. In psychology, there is a proven theorem that show that people are more willing to see in others, what they do not like about themselves. In short, we are driven to make assumptions on others, based on what we like the least about ourselves.
As with the previous user accusing me to be wrong; if that is what you think; be my guest.
Yes, I did get the memo
BTW an entire thread of full of developers experienced with dealing with DRM? I went back and read every comment, and I can count your comment, as active user of a 3rd party DRM, and few more. I guess I don't have clear the meaning of "full", when the percentage is less than 50%. That must be a positive view of life.
But yes, if you want me to reiterate, I am aware that for some users of 3rd party DRM, the experience was negative or didn't bring any noticeable financial advantage. Although seems that most did just move on the point of the fact that implementing any sort of protection from piracy, even as small as adding a serial code; does have effects in some cases. Same goes for not applying protections at all. There are different takes, and all are relevant and acceptable.
I agree with you, I am a customer too and when I was not able to play sim city because it required online 24/7 and the EA servers were down, I was unhappy. Or when the Denuvo protection forced me to turn off my antivirus, or when I am forced to install on my main drive, an application because it does not support network drives (like Origin does for all its games for example).
But I don't need to get to a forum dedicated to game development to get an idea of the view of customers; I can get that from gamespot forums, right? Or even talking to my friends and fellow software users. Since we are here as developers and people of "science" (computer science is science), then would make sense to keep the focus of the conversation on this aspect.
We're all developers here with experience with this, which is why we're in this thread about DRM on a development forum.
You aren't aware, because as far as I can tell, the only thing that supports this premise is a single link @Ryiah posted.
You know when there are no more arguments when the shift is not on the topic but in directly addressing to individuals. Not sure how Unity mods take such things, so either we move on and actually talk about the topic, or there is not much left to say
The reason I'm focusing on you specifically now is because you've been beating this drum for three pages now while failing to listen to anyone.
Speaking of psychology you are literally the first entry in the following article's list for identifying an unreasonable person.
Yes that is very valid unfortunate experience.
I would say, developer should have meaning of collecting feedback on their product. Here specifically searching for protection matter, if is an issue, or not. Dedicated forum is one of many way to collect constructive feedback. Weather using external source of information, or having dedicated one, is complete dev choice.
Since we on psychology matter, I will allow write short life anecdote, if don't mind.
I was working for over 2 years closely with one person on variety engineering solutions.
Most of time was 2 to 4 our team members around. But being 2 of us, wasn't rare.
Now, while person I am referring to, was generally very nice, discussing on constructive subjects was close to nightmare. Simple question could easily drag to 30 min conversation without consensus, until decided to cut off.
And while there was concerning myself at some point, if I got problem understanding, when there was more than 2 of us, even 4, person couldn't take constrictive discussion lightly. All was fine, as long we were all agreeing with a matter, but once trying convince 3 vs 1, that there is fault in reasoning subject, discussion been dragging. Again, unit cutting off point.
While there were multiple situation trying explain issue, best solution, but sad, was simply not engage.
That is exactly the point which was being made.
(Edit: to clarify the "research" thing, that word can be used in both specific and broad contexts. You may not be a "Researcher", but that doesn't mean you don't do research in the broader context of the term.)
Right, a lack of monetary benefit is the point that people have been trying to make. If it's not financially beneficial, then where do you see the benefit for game developers* in shutting pirates down?
* I can definitely see benefit in other industries, and the protection doesn't even have to be hard to break to realise them. Even if protection is easy to bypass people can't claim ignorance if they had to deliberately circumvent it.
Wrong. Game developers and game players are not the same audience!
Even if many people in those audiences happen to agree, their reasoning behind that is likely to be different.
Yes, except when you have a large amount of funds.But since most of us (I assume, if you work for AAA then don't take it bad) is dealing with small budgets and limited resources, the 3rd party DRM is not an option.
I believe we did beat around the bush on this for a while now, so it is safe to say that we can archive the "DRM are expensive" part; and move on.
Beside commercially available DRM, there are other means to protect against piracy. Most of the preferences goes on "don't do anything, save the hassle" approach. Which is fine.
One interesting point was regarding multiplayer games: one user did actually get a mutual benefit from piracy; boosting the fun factor in his game, because there were more people to play with/against (not sure, don't know the game used as example). That may work in favor of sales and the product itself, although it is limited to multiplayer/co-op games, that rely on the presence of other players (as someone that wait 5 minutes for a battlefied 2 match, I know how it feels to wait for a matchmaking).
Also one report of a game that used a simple pin to create a key, which was interesting and very similar to the scenarios I described in my initial post.
So far the situation is quite all over the place of the spectrum, which is encouraging. It show different approach to the problem and the outcome is also very different in the end, because even if we talk about entertaining interactive products in general, each product is different, either by implicit design or by constrain due to the platform (mmo or online only games, as example).
It is a good picture, even if statistically the number of replies can be reduced to a small amount of users, but still a great insight on different approach.
This is exactly what I said. They are different audience, as such, they hang out in different places.
Some overlap may occur, but generally speaking, what is considered unacceptable, should probably fall in different buckets
Wait... are you talking about customers of DRM, or customers of the games?
I simply see no reason for this thread to even exist any longer.
There's nothing you can do to prevent it, so why even worry about it?
Now if you sold 10 million copies and then suddenly found out there was 9 million other copies that were pirated, then you really need to focus on driving them to paying for your game. Otherwise if you've sold 20,000 copies in a month and found out only 100 were pirated, just keep making the game fun.
Of course them numbers are just figurative, but yeah. Just thought I'd end my discussion in here with that.
So, slight side note, because I've seen a lot of people propose a variety of numbers for numbers of games sold and number of pirated copies.
If your game is a tiny bit successful, the legit to pirated copy ratio is something like 1:8. It's better for some platforms and worse in others, but pirated copies are always more than the legit ones.
Thing is, that's literally what's going on in the AAA space right now, even with a focus on driving people to pay for the games. It doesn't work. A pirated copy is not a lost sale because most pirates aren't actually buying games to begin with.
I was just trying to say make a fun game, perhaps one day they will buy it.
Sometimes people pirate just simply to try it out before buying.
Other times they do it until they can afford to buy it.
But most of the times it's neither lol.
The best we can do is try to make the game fun and hope people do buy it.
But at the end of the day I'm not gonna stress over it, there's no reason too when there's nothing I can do to prevent it.
It all goes back to what kind of "belief" you have, regarding piracy. If your approach is to do nothing, then of course why worry about it. It boil down to personal preferences at that point
The personal preference of not wasting time and money on something that doesn't work.
Heard that some games did get a 1:20 ratio; so I guess depends from popularity and other factors, but it is a good way to get an idea of where we stand these days.
Found an old article that show also the difference between PC and mobile piracy for an average successful game, which seems to show that mobile has less piracy overall (or maybe it is due to the fact that more people have more than a computer and not more than one mobile device? Can't say, there is not enough data )
Does it show that? It seems to me it shows the opposite. (smaller revenue percentage for mobile for relative bigger piracy percentage, it really doesn't help that they have the colors flipped between the two pie charts). The game is simply less popular on mobile, but the piracy rate is higher.
Mobile is a little better piracy wise if we talk iOS only. As soon as you include Google Play, piracy rates go through the roof.
Exactly, so if I need brain surgery it doesn't matter if my doctor has a fake medical degree and certification because he or she didn't have the money to go to an accredited "Medical School". We can excuse the Quack, anyway not everybody survives surgery and maybe the insurance policy doesn't pay. After I'm dead I won't know the difference, right?
MAYBE this is a solution: DRM your software, then DRM the DRM with another DRM, all the while also encrypting inside a terrible virus that attempts to trigger reports on who cracked the software, and then (maybe) once pirated this triggers other actions against the cracker. Maybe Pirates wouldn't be so eager to break software if they were far less certain what might be the immediate consequence.
"Your honor, I was sure doing them developers wrong, but *(sniffy) that dun't gives them know right to dues me back like they done. I pleads not guilty. An will never do that particular wrong again, cross my fingers."
Yes, a copy of a piece of software IS the same as practicing medicine without a license! Very good! Thank you for your contribution!
- any kind of DRM in Unity is a serious uphill battle, all your code is readable by default
- creating meaningful DRM is time consuming, highly specialized and resource-hungry process
- average indie does not have the resources to deal with this, they always better off to invest those into the game and marketing rather than into the DRM
If you have 10 people, 1 buys your game right away, 4 maybe along the way, 5 will never ever, why would you SPEND serious money on the 5 people who wouldn't buy your game ever? Why you wouldn't spend on the person who surely buys it and satisfy her/him and maybe on the other four, who can be convinced to buy your game? And they can be convinced unless you botch your release with a dumb, inconvenient, ill-placed DRM...
So ignoring the really F***ed up racial affectation you're putting on at the end here, what?
Do you really think that's how any of this works? Do you really think that the problem with DRM is that it isn't destructive enough? Do you just not remember DRM schemes from the mid-2000s or something?
well we can get the idea that if it doesnt work and the sellers KNOW it doesnt work, its just there to make money off of people. it isnt effective and thats all there is to it. if it doesnt work its racket thats designed to sell licenses.
as for what they do, they ask around pirate forums and ask why its pirated, or put in a some form of way to detect if the game files have been modified. say a sha256 check on the steam.dll or something and give an apologetic message. if you block the game then pirates will just work around the block too. there is no way to get away from piracy but you can do a few things to mitigate it. MAKE A DEMO. and lastly its just make a better game that people are willing to pay for
This. If there is no way to properly and anonymously (yeah I'm looking at you "free trials") check if a game doesn't suck - I assume it sucks. Some gamers want to know if a pc game will even run on their system, so having a legit, free, anonymous trial, is pretty critical for video games.
I suggest developers do what Rockstar Games or similar AAA devs do - make a effing fantastic game. Otherwise, it needs a demo.
There's also a positive side of piracy. Pirates are potentially your free reviewers and promoters.
Extra audience that will keep an eye on your products.
Word of mouth is a powerful thing. Don't forget about that.
Once people start spreading glorious talks about your product you'll get some extra buyers.
I do not promote piracy is, but it is probably the last thing you should be wasting time on combating.
Because there isn't a silver bullet to this one. Well, except for making a really good game.
Yep, I got exactly same point of view on that matter.
Allowing to reach product much further, specially where income is much lower, yet growing community significantly and gain noise around the game.
Much of the software that I use has some form of DRM including Unity, Lightroom, Photoshop, Substance Painter and Designer, Microsoft Office, and Microsoft Visual Studio. I'm assuming that if it didn't work, these companies wouldn't be using it.
Personally, I would like an easy way of managing licenses and maybe even selling my software as subscription service. My main concern isn't stopping hardcore pirates. It's just to make it easier for large and small companies to be compliant with licensing terms and pay for the appropriate number of licenses.
This is not something that I have explored in depth yet because my only customer so far is myself. I'm keeping a close eye on myself and so far I haven't pirated my software.