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Developing for Steam

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Shayke, Apr 23, 2021.

  1. Shayke

    Shayke

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    Hey,
    I have developed for mobile so far and I want to start developing for PC.
    And I want to make a little research before I start.
    So I wanted to ask, is there anything important to know before doing that?
    I am asking in this forum because people must have struggled through the process and maybe you can share.
     
  2. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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  3. mgear

    mgear

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    most complicated part was filling/gathering the signup, bank, tax and IRS information..

    there's also steam plugins in the asset store, they can have extra integrations and ready examples to use.
    (i'm currently using Heathens steamworks v1)
     
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  4. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    I'd say the worst of it is setting up Steampipe if you aren't able to use the zip uploads.
     
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  5. Joe-Censored

    Joe-Censored

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    Setting up your game in Steam's web interface I find the biggest hassle and confusing. Integrating the SDK into your project is pretty easy.
     
  6. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    I don't remember it as that big of a hassle. You just used the supplied bat added your appid and then it package and uploaded it to steam. We even have it as a step in our CI (devops) been chugging along for years without trouble.

    I agree setting up the legal stuff was the biggest hassle, glad I don't run a company in the US.
     
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  7. Joe-Censored

    Joe-Censored

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    The hassle I was referring to was you have depots, packages, and builds which you need to create and configure the relationships between, and the first time I set that up I found the documentation lacking. Hopefully that has improved over the last few years.
     
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  8. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    I don't remember that being a hassle either. But there is some short comings to how they do stuff. For example you configure settings for your entire depo like point out exe.

    Then unity goes and change how they name exes. Now we can't change that setting easy in steam.

    It would have been better if we could override settings on builds.
     
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  9. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    It was a hassle for me because the pipe line broke. Spend weeks trying to figure out what button I was pushing wrong, because none of the documentation would work. Ended up raising a ticket with steam. They were like "whoops, our bad, we didn't turn something on on our side".

    As soon as they flipped the switch everything worked perfectly.
     
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  10. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    I've had that happen a few times, as well as sometimes it just not working for a while but working with no change the next day. It's actually a little shocking how inconsistent the backend is because sometimes I'm not even sure if store detail pages have properly committed.
     
  11. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    Now when you say it there were a few manual steps that they needed todo on their side.
     
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  12. Meltdown

    Meltdown

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    I found the whole process of getting the game uploaded and setup far more confusing than it needed to be.
    Compared to something like GameJolt which had a very user friendly wizard with a single upload option.

    Ultimately, this video series helped me understand the process better..
     
  13. Recon03

    Recon03

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    I would agree about this, because the bank info, can cause you issues, it did me, if you don't have an active LLC in your state/country, some banks will charge you while you are developing....which can be costly, so you need a bank account, day 1 for Steam, so this caused me issues... since my LLC bank was not being used, and it was new... I keep my contract LLC ,different from games I made, or worked on...

    So, you can have issues for sure.... How I fixed this, I just used my personal info, which you can change later and personal bank, until release... or find a bank, that don't charge monthly fees..... not always easy to do this in some states, countries.....

    But adding Steam support itself is easy, to do, plenty of tutorials as well, and some tools integrate Steam....

    I personally use Epic Online Services as well, which is awesome for Unreal and Unity, since I also develop in Unreal as well..... What is nice you can add Steam, Discord support with Epic Online Services...one thing EOC needs to address and I know they will is beta..... we need to be able to easily add people to test, as Steam does..

    Steam actually just released a new way to handle beta testing, with out CD keys, as of last week.....which is nice... My issue with Steam, they take 30% of the top... which is a lot, Epic takes 12%.... I been apart of many release game, and after you release on Steam you see under 50%, sometimes under 30%.....Epic games, we always seen way more......

    So I recommend to release on Epic Store first, and you can always still release on Steam to....( I will do both for now..... but this may change, sick of Steams greed.....and they do little for that 30%.. Even Apple dropped there %, you will see more dropping %....... Since 30% is Unfair for any business and its a lot to give up ......for LITTLE.. this is my issue with Steam for years, and I was glad to see Epic open a store... its been fantastic...
     
  14. Recon03

    Recon03

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    its way different than it was .....back then, I was around back then, and currently, developing on both Epic and Steam..... They improved it a lot, but its still NOT worth 30%...
     
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  15. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    What does this mean? What do you see "under 50%"?

    What are your sales figures like for Steam vs. Epic (not looking for specifics, just if they're comparable in the actual $$$ numbers)?
     
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  16. Recon03

    Recon03

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    DO you understand business sir??? I have been apart of plenty of releases and business........ Steam 30% off the top... you have development cost..... You have taxes.... after the 30%... you have sales... if you have software to keep up to date.....( I pay thousands for my team every year... ( sure you can use FREE junk..

    It all adds up..... That is business... I have been in game development for over 28 years, professionally, contractor and studios... I also been in automotive industry.. and my wife runs a successful company..

    So, you understand costs comes with business.......??


    Epic due to them only taking 12%.. from my experience, we have seen a massive hike....Which is why more companies are leaving Steam..... for a good reason, i'm not saying to leave Steam, that is up to the user/or company. That is something you need to make as a business man or women.

    if you have multi player and have serve costs, its even less.... %.. there is a lot to running a successful game, and business, is important. So when you have STeam taking 30%, sometimes 33%, which I see all the time depending on Vat ...

    it costs money, to make a game, you need to pay your self and your team.......do the math....


    Business is super important, in game development.... there is more to making a game than JUST releasing...to be successful...
     
  17. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    I'm not trying to question or doubt you, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. What are you referring to when you say "under 50%"? Under 50% profit? Under 50% revenue? If it's the latter, is that because a publisher is taking 20% on top of Steam's 30%, or are you referring to something else?

    And I'm especially curious about Epic. You clearly sound like a fan of then, but I'm curious, in terms of actual profit or revenue, of what the ratio is of Steam-to-Epic sales.
     
  18. Recon03

    Recon03

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    Sorry if I came off a bit harsh.

    well it depends, on the game and your success. so, Steam off the top takes 30%. Epic takes 12 % for Unity, Unreal games...

    This is the basics of release... consoles are the same way, about 30%// So where you get the 50 or less %...is development of paying your self, team, taxes, software costs.. if you have server costs and any marketing. if you do any. So this can vary, but from my experience, with Steam, we have seen most games make lower than 50%.. after taxes.

    Nothing to do with publisher at all.

    This is related to actually costs after you release.


    One being Steam takes 30% off the top, Epic takes 12% less than half. that has always been alot, to take from a company..... and makes it harder for games to be successful ...This is why you see some AAA games even after a publisher costs, they reskin a lot of games, to make more money... and make up for those costs.. This is part of business.


    So when this happens, its good to have Epic for competition or any other store vs Steam.....since they take a lot for little.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
  19. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    Okay thanks. Just to be clear, you're saying "less than 50%" for net profit margin, correct?

    That still seems very very high to me, given some of the numbers here (or here) for net profit margin.
     
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  20. Recon03

    Recon03

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    Like I said, 50%.....



    Have you released any games? or been in business?

    Steam = 30% -33%. From the top... This means you see 70 - 67 % with out development costs of ANY kind.... or taxes...

    Development costs, can be software, paying team and your self around 20-30%... This also includes software, Modo I know costs me 2 grand, and every year 400$ to update for my 3d software, Maya, is not cheap...Substance Painter, Designer costs me around 75$ a year or so, each... Each USER..... Terrain tools, World Machine 300$ plus maint. Plus another terrain tools.. Houdini is 270 every 2 years if you use Indie or 2 grand..or so.. I could go on and on about software costs here... This does not include any assets you buy, or had to spend time making..

    You need to pay your self and your team.. This adds up fast....





    Taxes, I know in my state, and business tax is over 22%..... Taxes vary...

    This alone is well over 50% , this can vary from team, to game.... So I was being generous.... From my experience I have seen, companies that I done work for, make less than 25-30% after everything is paid. This is the BOTTOM line..



    Just to be clear I'm not saying to NOT use Steam, but this is from experience and decades of it, what I have seen from companies I worked with or people, I had worked with over the years..

    So with Steam taking so much this is another reason why you see so many STEAM games, never release updates or very little, when little to no money comes in...... Most lose teams and end up alone and abandon... This is important in business.

    The bottom LINE is important....


    I don't think many people realize the costs , vs what is made after wards..... This is why so many people are glad we have competition... Even Apple has dropped there %./.. .. Maybe Google will too... mobile games are worse with %.... since most games need to be free and make money from micro's and ads.


    AAA games, reskin, wash repeat, so they can save money /time... This is very common. for most mid size to larger companies...Smaller companies should be as well, which is why some use assets, to save $.... You need to any way you can..


    by the way the numbers you are sharing, are numbers where people MUST sell a lot of UNITS to make a profit... and the way to do this.... is to reskin, wash, repeat as much as possible, which is why so many AAA, AA companies do it... and find cheaper ways to release your game..

    Even Ubisoft ditched Steam, since its cheaper to release with Epic .. That is smart business.. and they done even better for it. ( this can vary from game/company, marketing... Steam your game is also hidden most of the time.


    Now if you meant 50% was high for what someone would made, yes you are correct I was being generous. Most of the time, its much less. 20-30% Net . This will vary. But I have seen as high as around 50%.... but not as common as 20-30%.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
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  21. Recon03

    Recon03

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    Even a popular game like Valheim, can see around 1-2 $... for a sale, many other companies that is all they see after the bottom line..

    So those sales right there, they are actually paying those users..... to play, they aren't making anything from them...

    CURRENCY CURRENT PRICE CONVERTED PRICE LOWEST RECORDED PRICE
    Argentine Peso ARS$ 224,99 $2.41 -87.94% $2.41 ARS$ 224,99
    Turkish Lira ₺32,00 $3.89 -80.53% $3.89 ₺32,00
    Russian Ruble 435 ₽ $5.80 -70.95% $5.80 435 ₽
    Kazakhstani Tenge 2650₸ $6.16 -69.15% $6.16 2650₸


    Those are History of profit they made, after Steam took there cut..... after development, they lose money... So they needed to SELL a ton of UNITS to make money. .But not everyone has this happen.... which is my point. it causes games to stop development and move on, or barely hold on. even some of the good ones.... Steam makes it tough due to lack of marketing, hidden games... and the % from the top.

    Those are the major issues with Steam.
     
  22. Recon03

    Recon03

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    I believe Joe was talking about years back, possible, because it used to be a Pain, now a days its a bit easier.
     
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  23. Joe-Censored

    Joe-Censored

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    Correct. The last time I added a new game to Steam was I believe 2019, but I already knew what I was doing. What really sticks out in my mind was the week it too me to get everything working for my first Steam game, which was 2016. I'm glad to hear things are easier now.
     
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  24. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    Hmm we shipped in 2016 we use the same bat file to publish to steam as we always have. :)
     
  25. Joe-Censored

    Joe-Censored

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    No, the .bat file was pretty easy. The Steam web interface to configure your depots and packages for the first time was a pain and confusing, and the documentation was terrible.
     
  26. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    Not as confusing as all the tax forms and crap :) maybe easier if you are a US company but for a EU company like us there was a ton of forms
     
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  27. Recon03

    Recon03

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    The tax stuff was easy, but I'm used to running a business.. US base, we actually have to apply for an LLC, and tax codes.. that used to be a pain back in my first few businesses, but they made that a bit easier, it just takes a bit of time sometimes, with covid it was slower....

    Not sure which year they changed the packages and such... but back in the old days of steam it was terrible... 2016, its not much different than today.. I can't think of many changes since then as far as depot.
     
  28. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    Correction you are used to run a US company :) you guys are probably atleast 20 years behind Sweden when it comes to ease, I can have a company setup in minutes here thanks to a well developed, automated registration process.

    Another problem with steam is that the revenue from them is excluded VAT. Here in Sweden when you buy something deductable like a workstation you can deduct the taxes (VAT) but you deduct it against the incoming VAT, so if you have no incoming VAT which you would of Steam was your only source of income you wouldn't be able to deduct. Not a problem for us yet since our main income isn't from steam. But soon that will change.
     
  29. ippdev

    ippdev

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    i set up Monumental Arts Engineering LLC in one hour.The bank account took 30 minutes. Steam took one week to try to find our bank which has over a thousand branches.
     
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