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Desktop Computer with proprietary motherboard connector for PSU!!!?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ArachnidAnimal, Dec 17, 2016.

  1. ArachnidAnimal

    ArachnidAnimal

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    I recently purchased a new Lenovo computer for developing with Unity.

    I also have an aftermarket PSU of 650W which I removed from old computer. It has the standard 24-pin ATX connector.

    So I was in the process of installing the new PSU into the new computer, only to discover that Lenovo is using a motherboard with a special 14-pin connector for the power, which is not industry standard.

    When Lenovo first starting manufacturing computers with this issue, no one was able to install aftermarket PSU, which means essentially you were stuck with the onboard graphics because the factory PS is only 180W, which isn't powerful enough to run aftermarket graphics cards.
    Alternatively, you would have to purchase an upgraded PSU from Lenovo for some ridiculous amount of like $270.

    WTF? Has anyone else every heard of this or came across this issue? Why would a company make this decision? I have done this about 4 different times and have never purchased a computer with a proprietary power connector.
    Ultimately, I had to purchase a 24-pin to 14-pin adapter online from a third-party
     
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  2. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    Lenovo has desktop PCs? Is this some weird laptop MOBO they stuck in a PC case or something?
     
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  3. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    There are converters available at amazon "24 Pin to 14 Pin PSU Main Power Supply ATX Adapter Cable for Lenovo IBM". Prices start at $1.99. And there are people online mentioning M92P motherboard.
     
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  4. aweir

    aweir

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    They do it because they don't want you to upgrade. In fact some PC makers actually design their cases with non standard backing plates so that only their own motherboards will fit. Aftermarket motherboards will not align with the case's mounting holes. I once tried to upgrade a Dell Dimension and put another motherboard in it. Hell no, the whole backplate was molded to fit the motherboard it came with. The first thing PC makers skimp on is the power supply which is ironic because they spend so much money on making sure their cases are non standard compliant. In fact I would be surprised if that power supply even had a PCI express power cable for a video card.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  5. ArachnidAnimal

    ArachnidAnimal

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    It;s a PC! It supposed to be built in a manner that allows people to upgrade them!

    The people who are making the real money here are the people who are selling the power cable adapters. I just bought one from ebay, and they can't keep up with the demand of them. There's people who are selling nothing but these cables for Lenovo computer. Also Best Buy now prevents you from using their computer to go on the internet. So if you see something in BestBuy, you have no way of knowing things like this about the computers. It used to be you see something in BestBuy, then use the computer at BestBuy to go online to view more info about it. But they got rid of that because people were just comparing prices with different competitors.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  6. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    You have the option to never buy their hardware ever again.

    I assembled all previous incarnations of my home pc from separately bought parts. Seems to work fine, although wasting time on stuff like replacing motherboard or changing thermal paste gets seriosly annoying every time I have to do it.
     
  7. Tanel

    Tanel

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    I just wouldn't buy an off the shelf PC. It seems like you don't really have a problem going in, switching out parts etc. So may I ask, why not just take the next step and build your own?
     
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  8. aweir

    aweir

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    It costs more in the long run to buy a prebuilt computer if you plan to upgrade it. An aftermarket ATX mid tower case will cost $40 and last a lifetime. Prebuilt PCs are a compromise in everything. Now, sites like PC Parts Picker will select the cheapest prices on any part you need.

    Also Bestbuy will price match Amazon/Newegg/Tigerdirect if you talk to a service rep. Or show them a print out of the item from the competitor.
     
  9. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

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    I never buy off the shelf PCs for that very reason. I upgraded a PC for my brother once... he had a Dell tower that only had 1 optical drive slot and he wanted two... the Dell power supply screw out wouldn't work in the new case so I also swapped the power supply but it wouldn't work. Turns out that even though Dell used a standard connector, they changed the pinout of the wires. I just had to swap two wires in the connector to make it work.

    It's not limited to PCs either. This was years ago, but Dell printers used to be just rebranded Lexmark printers... but you couldn't just stick Lexmark ink in because the ink had a tab on the cartridge that was meant to slide into a slot that the Dell printers didn't have. You could use the Lexmark ink just fine by taking a pair of side cutters and snipping off the fin on the ink cartridge.

    It's all about locking you into their product.
     
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  10. derf

    derf

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    The only thing I tend to buy off the shelf now and days are laptops.

    Desktop PCs you have to build them IF you want to really do something with them (Gaming, programming, etc.)
     
  11. aweir

    aweir

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    Even the preloaded operating system is filled with trialware. Also the restore disks that come with computers are a complete joke. It takes hours for the restore disks to extract every single cabinet file one by one (assuming you lost your recovery partition), when you could just have used an actual retail or OEM Windows installation DVD and then use the vendors tools to update drivers. That's the hassle you get for having a free operating system preinstalled. Luckily you can download the Windows installation media creator tool and burn your own recovery DVD and save yourself hours or work.
     
  12. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

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    My Dell laptop had the recovery partition on a small dedicsted built in SSD. I wiped it, created a real partition on it and set my page file to use it. Gave me a bit of a performance boost and kept the page fill off my OS SSD.
     
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  13. wccrawford

    wccrawford

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    I've worked at a couple local hardware shops and a big retailer, as well as phone support over the years. And let me tell you: The big names very, very frequently do things that are proprietary. Especially with cases.

    If you want a PC that you can customize without buying from the manufacturer, then build it yourself. There's no guarantee, otherwise.
     
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  14. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    I have a ~4 year old GPU that crashed my pc last I had it in the case. Not immediately, but running furmark caused a crash almost instantly. Could it be that the thermal paste needs to be replaced? I don't really know much about this, but I remember reading a guide on how to do that for a console or something like that. So is this a thing maybe? I only ever applied new thermal paced when I upgraded a CPU or built a new computer, otherwise I've never changed it on any component.
     
  15. Tanel

    Tanel

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    Could be, check out your CPU and GPU temperatures (with CoreTemp and GPU-Z for example) and if the they're abnormally high see if there's too much dust buildup and/or replace the thermal paste.
     
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  16. bgolus

    bgolus

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    You answered your own question right there.

    Every large PC manufacturer out there uses proprietary parts to some degree. In the past every major PC maker had a completely different PSU standard and motherboard, it's only really been in the last decade or so that they've started to use more standard parts, but usually only in the top end markets.

    To some degree this is to explicitly stop you from doing what you're trying to do now, but it's also because it's often cheaper to use proprietary parts that do only what they need and no more. There's little financial incentive to make and sell systems intended for use for something like your average office worker that can be expanded into a monster gaming rig, and there are a lot of incentives not to both for the manufacturer and for the average buyer of those systems. It does also mean if anything goes wrong with the PC it's more business for them as they might be the only place you can get the proprietary parts without breaking the warranty (which is something businesses care about).

    In this case it looks like Lenovo is likely reusing a single proprietary motherboard it made for a wide range of products, from VESA mount PCs (like one would use to drive an advertisement display or point of sale systems), to mid range desktops.
     
  17. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

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    It's also easier for them to sell you on and lock you into their service and support contracts and vendors as well. Warranties are a huge source of income for retailers (not just in the PC space).
     
  18. aweir

    aweir

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    This is the difference between a 14 pin power connector:

    And a standard 24 pin power connector



    Where are the 3.3 volt pins??? Nevermind. 3.3v is not really needed. It was intended for SATA hot-swapping, but in the early days when everyone was using molex to SATA power adapters, molex could not carry 3.3v so it was pretty much abandoned.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
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  19. ArachnidAnimal

    ArachnidAnimal

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    Just wrap the PC in a blanket and let some of solder melt. It worked for the red-ring of death for xbox 360. You can also throw the PC in the oven for 45 minutes @ 425F.


    I haven't seen computers with restore discs in a long time. Usually the factory restore is on a partition on the main disk. The Levono has a 40 GB factory restore partition. I just finished cloning the OS to a new 240GB SSD, and deleted the restore partition. I removed the HDD, and am just only going keep it as a backup.

    I wanted to use an SSD for a long time now. Huge difference now in OS boot time and opening up programs like Unity and Photoshop.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
  20. aweir

    aweir

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    I really nice program I use on my laptop is called Aomei OneKey backup. It makes a compressed backup image of your system drive then it adds an entry to your Windows bootloader to restore your system. At bootup you can enter the recovery mode and can backup again or restore from the backup. It's different than cloning a disk using a partitioning program.
     
  21. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Dried thermal paste would result in overheating that would be visible on sensors. 75..90 degrees celsius.
    Upon reaching about 90 celsius temperature on CPU, a lot of computers will simply shut down immediately.
    Similar temperature on GPU usually will result in artifacts.


    Not a good idea. Lots of plastic inside, plus mechanical HDDs almost certainly aren't made to handle this temperature.
     
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  22. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

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    That's essentially what happened with my PS3 when I got the YLOD. I took it apart and the thermal paste was hard as a rock. Some kind of porcelain type paste they used instead of some good silver paste.
     
  23. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    Hm, I always thought 90°C was perfectly fine for GPUs and 100+ °C is the time to start worrying. Maybe I'll plug it into my old pc and see if it is stable in idle and if it is, I'll try to replace the thermal paste. Thanks for the advice. I used to have a passive cooled GT 9800 that overheated, and those errors looked slightly different though.

    PC in a blanket won't cut it to melt solder and could damage other components. If you do the baking thing you do it only to the GPU, not to the whole PC, that would be crazy. Besides... it's a big tower case that doesn't fit into an oven anyway.
    Generally I'd be careful with advising people to put things into the oven. I know it legit can help if done right and you're lucky, but there is a little more to it than "put it into the oven and hope for the best" as far as I can tell.
     
  24. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

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    I'm pretty sure his post was a joke. :)
     
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  25. ArachnidAnimal

    ArachnidAnimal

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    I'm surprised everyone thought I was serious.
     
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  26. wccrawford

    wccrawford

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    Maybe you haven't seen how much bad advice is given out on the internet? Seriously, yours wasn't *that* absurd in comparison. It wasn't that hard to believe that someone would suggest it seriously.
     
  27. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

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    True, remember all those people that tried to Microwave their iPhone 6's to charge them?
     
  28. bgolus

    bgolus

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    People drilled into their iPhone 7 to add a headphone jack, and have cut off parts of a PCIe video card connector to get them to into an AGP or PCIe 1x slot (the later of which does actually work if done correctly). Don't underestimate the power of ignorance and ingenuity combined.
     
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  29. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    I'm notoriously bad at picking up irony.

    Or those that thought a new iOS update would make their iphones waterproof and tested it.

    Or the video of the kid that gets talked into microwaving his laptop.


    For real though, I've read about the GPU baking in the oven thing on several German pc-hardware sites that didn't post it on April 1st:

    http://praxistipps.chip.de/grafikkarte-backen-so-reparieren-sie-ihre-hardware_18582
    http://grafikkarte.org/blog/grafikkarte-im-backofen-backen-mythos-oder-wundermittel/





    And here is a giant thread about it where people could vote on what temperatures worked for them:

    https://www.computerbase.de/forum/showthread.php?t=470823

    They're calling it "not a miracle, but calculated luck". They also raise the question though, if just disassambling and propperly reassambling might have done the job too, without the baking.
     
  30. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    There's a "last ditch" procedure for repairing dying GPU, and it is baking it in the oven. The idea is to resolder loose connections. Alternative is reballing the chip.

    So, yeah, with that in mind, it was reasonable to assume that you are serious.|

    Basically, sarcasm is hard to detect in text form, so if you don't want people to start thinking that you're that one guy who puts his pc cases into oven, you might want to reconsider posting jokes like that.

    Which reminds me, there was one thread where a dude asked for advice on the internet, someone recommended him to apply magnet to the HDD, he did that and bricked his dad's computer. So, in general, IMO, it is a good idea to avoid jokes like that....
     
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  31. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    My PC downright shuts down when CPU temperature exceeds some number around 90 degrees. Probably a motherboard safety feature.

    GPU overheating beyond 90 degrees may create artifacts. Basically, depending on chip model, some shaders can fail, portions of textures might get replaced with noise, etc. That doesn't necessarily permanently damage the card, though. I think it can also lead to crashing. I had a screenshot of that once upon a time, but it looks like I lost it.

    Generally, it would be a good idea to keep temperature as low as possible, but my PC's cooling is not so good, and generally I have hard time getting it under 50 degrees under heavy load. Basically, once it gets to 70 and 80, it means it is time to change thermal paste on the CPU again.
     
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  32. Dustin-Horne

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    Yeah depending on model, assuming you're talking C, t hat's the recommended cutoff point for Intel based CPUs.
     
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  33. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Or, if sarcasm is your style, you could more explicitly communicate when you're using it.
     
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  34. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Celsius, of course. 90 degrees fahrenheit is "warm summer day" temperature.

    All hail sarcasm tag.
     
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