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Discussion in 'Meta-forum Discussion' started by ohunity, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Update: wow, okay, picking games at random sure does reveal something going on in WIP. A lot of the stuff there isn't getting commented on because they're often super barebones and early on in development, to the point where the WIP thread content is functionally indistinct from a lot of the other WIP threads.
     
  2. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Yeah but there is gems too.

    I think there is only so many tiny or solo devs who work alone and post in a place like this. More serious people have their own devblpg site or whatever. Probably most people only play at making games and aren't serious enough to be really looking for real feedback, even if they don't really recognize or admit it.
     
  3. ohunity

    ohunity

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    I think this topic is sensitive for some, and would be best discussed off the forums.

    I would vote a mod close the thread as I can’t see it going anywhere.

    I am unwatching now,

    Cheers
     
  4. Antypodish

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    I do myself occasionally visit and comment some WIPs.
     
  5. Murgilod

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    Yeah, I used to go there a bit more frequently in the past, but I admit most of the time it was to see if there was any new cool S***.

    Honestly, I haven't been in so long that the ability to filter by tags so I'm not seeing a billion "not so much a wip as it is an asset store support thread" threads is kinda mind blowing.
     
  6. Ryiah

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    Agreed. It's very clear to me that you only want to pay attention to the people who are claiming that there is a problem while not providing any actual information from them. If it's a case of you not knowing the actual information then I question why you've been continuing this subject without any actual evidence.

    We need examples at this point for the thread to go anywhere. Just like we would need someone to post details about their problems (again, like my first post mentioned, there are threads being ignored because the individual didn't provide anything useful) in order for us to solve their problems.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  7. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    I never used any forum filters. I just scan for the blue games tag and if title piques interest I check out. I may go four or five.pages back. Most the time is just a vague idea with lots more text than visuals. That's so.ething I skip over. But then you.get some projects that are really far along and are really impressive, but still lack some polish so it's possible to make a useful (hopefully) critique.

    I find reading a back and forth of critique to be really educational. More so if it's on somebodies work who is many degrees above my current competency.

    Then just recently I see that guy experimenting with sharers to make a watercolor look and find inspiration. I got to try that! Sort of thing.

    As to OP, if the crowd is against you good indicator maybe you aren't as right as you think you was. Not a personal insult people disagreeing with you. Your ideas are not your identity.
     
  8. ohunity

    ohunity

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    Agreed, It's clear to me you have more interest in conflict, maybe the explains the post count. I would appreciate no further mentions.
     
  9. Ryiah

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    You're a key figure in this thread. You are going to have your posts quoted. If you truly don't care about this thread then you can safely ignore the quotes.
     
    Socrates, hippocoder and Antypodish like this.
  10. ohunity

    ohunity

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    Sorry, I meant I would appreciate no mentions from yourself because from what I can see (this thread, and other posts) you seem more interested in subtle antagonizing. If you want to quote me anyway, go ahead, I am just asking you to please not.

    I understand what you mean, but if by crowd you mean the same 5 ish extremely active posters, well then yes the crowd hates like this idea.
    However it's merely a suggestion based on what I have seen in my personal circles, like I said previously if people want to deny these opinions exist, or do not believe me that is fine, and I apologize if it comes off as untrue thus agitating people, but my suggestion still stands.

    I think there is always room for improvement on the forums!
     
  11. Ryiah

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    And then there are the people who are treating it as their personal blog or as a way to advertise it. Which if they're creating a single thread and keeping it updated is perfectly fine by the rules. It's when you start creating multiple threads that it is no longer accepted by the rules. Random example below from page five.

    https://forum.unity.com/threads/unity-devlog-0-friction.763277/
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  12. Antypodish

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    Instead assuming, you would better check profile. Anyone can do.
    Then at least could dedicate valid judgment on a person.

    We love hard facts, over pure assumptions.

    This forum is not ideal, granted. But is far from being dead or even call it bad.

    People do use it. Lot of people read threads, when searching for answers. Not everyone has time to reply. Many people "sit" in specific forum section, rather than general, or other forum sections.
    No answers does not mean "dead". If we can find already answers, no need for new thread.
    This is huge benefit over any one to one chat form.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  13. ohunity

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    I agree with this, I don't think the forums are bad nor "dead" by my definition. Still, of course there is room for improvement. I thought a small team of Unity experts dedicated to browsing the forums could only be a benefit for people.
     
  14. Ryiah

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    This. Chat systems are excellent for immediate results assuming all the right conditions but past discussions are very difficult to discover and when you do you might discover it needed more context from yet further back. Without the right conditions (eg the person able to answer the question is offline, continuous discussions with little to no time gaps) a chat system starts to rapidly lose any benefits it might have had.
     
  15. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    It's really simple.

    You said "I think problem exist. I know some guys who agree with me."

    Lot of people said, "problem? Where? Show us."

    At which point you started the old quote a post and pick out individual lines to rebuttal deal.

    All you had to do was assemble and make your scientific, evidence based argument when you were challenged. But that's work, isn't it?

    Then you suggest personal faults or bias is reason for disagreement. The irony, the entire premise was nothing but your own bias, and being sensitive you took things personal when pressed with common techniques any community use to get to the truth. You can't handle science my man!
     
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  16. ohunity

    ohunity

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    This is more like it, agreed no answers does not mean dead, it means that question was considered to lazy, silly or low effort to warrant an answer from those willing. Which is why I think a chat system, forum team, or something on Unity's end could be useful for the community.
     
  17. Ryiah

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    For the record here is the official Unity Discord.

    https://discord.gg/unity
     
  18. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Enabling the most lazy to be rewarded for their laziness would benefit community how?

    You think it's good thing to give.screaming brat ice.cream?

    No, you have to do work to earn reward. That is how universe works whether you like it or not.

    Again, it's irony that we arguing against you are one who spend lot of time handing out freebies and motivation. What are you doing to help?
     
  19. ohunity

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    No, I had a suggestion based on my personal experience, people deemed my personal experience as invalid or untrue, demanding sources because they had not seen such things.
    If Unity decided to reach out to me about places I have seen discontent with the forums, I would be happy to share, but I would rather not go into details about my personal circle on a public forum.
     
  20. Lurking-Ninja

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    For chat system you have the Discord. It's already populated with people who are willing and want to chat.

    On the lazy, low effort posts we're disagreeing. I specifically do not want Unity to spend a lot of money (team of employees in high income countries) on lazy people who cannot form a question which has some vague meaning.

    Yes. That's why it would be beneficial to actually show us what's on your mind.
    WTF? We don't want your personal circle, we want forum threads which shows the problem you're talking about.
     
  21. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    That sounds like a real lazy cop out to me! If you think a business gonna spend.money implementing some random complainers half baked suggestion you live in fantasy world.
     
  22. ohunity

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    This is a bit harsh, questions that may seem trivial to you or me, may seem like a mountain to a beginner, thus I understand their frustration.

    The same could be said when I have a complex issue, but to someone more experienced it may be dead simple.

    While I don't agree with highly low effort questions, many valid questions also go unanswered.
     
  23. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Well why dont you answer more then? I spend lot of time helping beginners. So does every person who replied here. Some have been.dpong it for years.

    And look at the meat on the moderators post. If that's not beautiful example of unity staff teaching stuff to beginner I don't know what is.

    You suggest for somebody else to do work while you won't do the minimum to factually support your case. It will be easier to win influence if you lead.by example.

    If I was you, I'd just bow out, go get the facts, and then make a.real pitch to the right people. You.wont get the final word here.

    Boy, sure is lively isn't it?
     
  24. ohunity

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    This is essentially the reason for my suggestion though.

    Yea, I am not sure they have a correct avenue for such suggestion, but I would love if they had something, whether the suggestion is silly or not, well that is up to them to consider.
     
  25. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Huh? You saying not enough answers. Onus is on you to first prove the assertion.

    Assuming you did that, which you are reluctant to do, then you need a cost analysis, right? Because people don't work for free. So how are you going to pitch this? What's cost, and how is it returned?

    Did you think it through much?
     
  26. ohunity

    ohunity

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    Unity Live Help is coming as well.
     
  27. Ryiah

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    I don't know how many people noticed but when we started asking questions everything suddenly went from "I frequently see users complaining that the forums are inactive" to "in my circles and browsing the forums I have seen such comments relatively frequently" to "I would rather not go into details about my personal circle".

    And therein lies the real reason we're not getting any threads. His evidence is most likely just threads created by his friends and no one else. Which goes back to that post of mine that he saw fit to criticize harshly. He's investing in this not because it's a legitimate problem but because it affects his personal circle.
     
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  28. Murgilod

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    The Discord exists now.
     
  29. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    There is no circle, @Ryiah. Is just a kid who doesn't have much experience complaining. First to vent, and afterwards for attentions.

    Unlikely will they appreciate time people spent explaining how things work to them, but no matter. Thread is full of pointers to unitys many help resources, which somebody will find in search and lead them.to their answer.
     
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  30. Lurking-Ninja

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    Honestly, I don't see the positioning of that too viable. Professionals rarely will use it, they usually get a contractor to help out more than a couple of hours pricing like the user's combined weight in gold ($5/minute?).

    I think a couple of rich whales will use it or occasionally some desperate people, but I don't see it as a particularly successful service as of now. I may be wrong, obviously.
     
  31. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Yea just seems like way to predate on same newbs who will buy a hundred fifty dollar game kit before doing tutorials, then bringing frustration to forums when it doesn't just work.
     
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  32. ohunity

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    I should have been more clear in my first post, yes this is my own personal experience, and just merely a suggestion.

    The wording in my initial post using "frequently" which is relative to whatever people think how frequent frequently is. There are a few threads and comments on on the forums themselves saying such things, and mostly in my personal circle several beginners share their frustrations about the forums. I do not share this view but -

    The suggestion still makes sense even if I said "I see some good questions going unanswered on the forum" everything afterwards still fits.
     
    BIGTIMEMASTER likes this.
  33. Ryiah

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    I just finished reading through the following link describing how the system works, and it left me with the impression that it's intended to link you to an expert through Unity Connect rather than an actual Unity employee.

    https://support.unity3d.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018417252-How-does-Unity-Live-Help-work-
     
    BIGTIMEMASTER likes this.
  34. ohunity

    ohunity

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    Agreed, the pricing is currently very high, although it seems to have dropped recently.
     
  35. ohunity

    ohunity

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  36. Murgilod

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    Show us.
     
  37. Ryiah

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    A price of $5/min ($300/hr) is roughly on par with what Unity themselves charge for professional assistance.
     
  38. Antypodish

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    Knowing the history of Unity involved in any community services, I am not convinced either, this would be any successful utility.

    People managed in 90's, I am sure they will manage now. We are in far more comfortable situation than back then.

    In fact, leaving certain threshold of difficulty, would be healthy overall in my opinion.
     
  39. ohunity

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  40. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Great. I think at first glance it's not bad suggestion but when you look into it more deeply, well it doesn't seem feasible really and others habe pointed to an array of systems that more or less accomplish same goal. And quite well actually.

    You have to realize, this has all been around for awhile and is quite refined already. A half cocked suggestion from someone not in the know then isn't likely to be some ground breaking idea. This doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement but improving a refined system takes a ton of work. Like the final polish on your game. It takes forever!
     
  41. ohunity

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    Interesting, although I think prices are around $1 - $2 / minute now.
     
  42. ohunity

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    Yea of course, I didn't think of this as some ground breaking idea. Really just a random suggestion that popped into my head and thought it would be interesting to share, didn't expect it to blow up.
     
  43. AndersMalmgren

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    Its not just the WIP area, any area but general is more or less dead. Scripting being an exception
     
  44. Antypodish

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    Good attempt.
    But consider its content of the poster.
    How do you perceive it? What brings to the community?

    Now, I was curious, as if discussed OP from the link, had unresolved threads.
    In fact has very first thread, which was replied very quick.
    All relevant been said.
    So there is no justification for OP from given link in this case, that forum is dead.

    Important thing is to be higlighted here.
    This is not chit chat forum, like twitter, discord, or reddit.
    It is strictly technical forum.
    We got some slack a bit, to give some relieve, but in general, we discuss topics related to game dev.
     
  45. Lurking-Ninja

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    That's why I see it a little bit overpriced.

    When you get a contractor, you review their CVs, you probably try to form a long term relationship with a successful candidate. (At least on my day job I handling things like that)
    But this thing is an Uber for Unity Tech help. Which I have very low confidence in. But again, I may be wrong here, I have never tried this service, I just don't see how Unity will be able to break through the trust-issues between these people.
    And this service is not for hobbyists. Clearly a hobbyist (unless it's a bigger whale than me) doesn't have the $300/hr budget for this. So it really does not answer the problem we were discussed here previously.

    Well, we have different definition of "dead" then, once or twice I have marked the entire forum "read" and among other things WIP got bold in a matter of minutes every time. And almost every other parts of the forum too. (I admittedly am not interested in VR and mobile development though, so maybe those areas are dead? Have no clue)
     
  46. AndersMalmgren

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    Go ask something in GI area, big change you will not get an answer. Etc, etc.
     
  47. ohunity

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    Relax with the witch hunt, these options and comments exist, valid or not. Here is another :p

     
  48. Ryiah

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    Agreed. If it were a Unity developer or even just someone that they personally interviewed to verify that they were worth the money it would be a different story, but requiring you to hunt down someone on Unity Connect and hoping that they will be worth the effort and upfront cost is way too iffy to me.
     
  49. ohunity

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    Interesting, I think this is my first post in general discussion, holy sheesh is it active :D
     
  50. Ryiah

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    If you check his post history you can get a better understanding of the situation. He created a thread in that section but when it didn't receive a response in the time period he expected he created the complaint thread. He waited longer than most before complaining. I have seen people post a complaint after not receiving a response within minutes of posting.
     
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