Current moderator activity

I figure instead of over-moderating I'll just update people from time to time, so they can avoid being treated like naughty school children.

Currently I'm watching for anyone who wants to start bullying newcomers with sarcastic comments since it was pointed out in mod chat that people are being a bit rough on newcomers. Sort it out guys, give everyone a friendly and straight up simple answer.

If someone else has already answered, just figure if what you're saying makes it more or less confusing to the newcomer first. Failing that post about:

- learn section (http://unity3d.com/learn)
- the new unity 5 tutorials (http://blogs.unity3d.com/2015/03/16/getting-started-in-unity-5-0/)

And finally, please don't judge their game choice. For some people it doesn't matter if they don't finish it, it's a pleasurable hobby to many.

Thanks.

 

Is warning somebody off making an MMO as a first project still allowed? Because the alternative is to let new users burn out after six months of no progress, and that's just mean.

 

And probably it's a bit unkind to post links to learn if someone else already has. Seen a couple of posts that were followed by 5-6 people posting just links to learn.

 

People who burn out in six months with no progress are probably not a good fit for the games industry.

I know it's common practice to tell people to try something simple first, and probably for most folks that is good advice. But someone who starts out doing an MMO, and pushes through and learns the hard way (or completes it), may very well be a rock star in the making.

 

I think warning about MMOs should be mandatory. It should be a built-in forum function. The default list of useful links for newbies should also be a magic button in the reply toolbar

 

I highly suspect that most newcomers who want to make MMO's are not trying to be part of the game industry. They are instead doing a fun project with their friends.

Let them find out on their own if a friendly "try something easier" doesn't sway them. Otherwise, they will learn a great deal and probably be better for it. We don't have to save everyone and in fact, sometimes it is better to let folks have their fun without making fun of them for doing it.

Totally agree with the second part of your post!

 

I agree re: being judgemental, however I still think it's perfectly ok to warn people of the scope of what they're doing if they don't appear to be aware of it. If they've made a conscious decision to make something big because they don't care then it shouldn't matter if someone points it out (politely). If they don't realise what they're getting themselves into and are genuinely interested in making games then I think it's worthwhile advice to give (and receive), though.

Any thoughts on that?

 

Also, big thumbs up for posting about moderation activities.

 

Maybe someone could write a polite and positive post describing the benefit of starting with a smaller scope if you are new to making games, and why memirs are challenging, that could be could be stickied and pointed to.

It comes up often enough and as a result many of the responses are "start with pong". A well worded post that expands on that could be helpful and time saving.

 

I'm at the point where I feel like it is easier to simply direct them towards one of the easier paths for developing their MMO project (ie Hero Engine, Big World Tech) than trying to convince them they cannot pull it off.

 

Oddly enough, there was such a post/thread and it was stickied and people were using it exactly as you suggest. It described both approaches and then had a lengthy discussion, from people on both sides of the fence, about starting with big projects vs. small ones. Links to that were often used rather than repeating the discussion therein, and it got occasional posts from people thanking contributors for their advice.

Then it got un-stuck. It's barely been seen since.

 

Was that the "I've lost my way..." or something like that? If it was that one, it was pretty vague and non-specific and kinda all over the place. I was thinking more like "How to make an MMO in Unity..." or something like that. Some that would draw the eye of anyone posting on that topic. Dunno, maybe too specific.

You posted a few times that awesome link on "asking questions". Maybe everyone should be required to read that before being allowed to post.

 

I'm writing up a summary of small tips from my 13 years of experience . I did everything wrong from the very beginning when I started so I should have a tip or two on a few pitfalls. In other words this is what I would have told my younger self.

 

Yeah you can still say whatever you want, but if mods think its a bit too harsh they'll delete it, it's fair warning really. Not saying laugher is banned just please don't be too mean to new people

 

I would say so. In that case I'd say it's not so much what you say but how you say it.
I think a user can cope if someone tells them: "It's too ambitious probably. If you really want to proceed be prepared for disappointment because X, Y, Z ...." as opposed to being told: "Stupid Child! You want to make an MMO? lolzors. Idiot."
The latter makes even me despite not being the target.

I also favor the notion of having a "start small" sticky.

 

There's a difference between telling newcomers that their ideas are out of scope and that they should consider starting smaller, and just outright berating them.

It *is* possible for them to make an MMO, it's just crazy unlikely. There's no need to break their spirit. Just give them the info they want, maybe a nice suggestion that they build a few smaller games first, and let them go have their fun. It doesn't hurt the rest of us at all and they might actually surprise you.

Not everyone gets burnt out when their first project fails. Many take it as a much-needed experience that helps them get their bearings and do better the next time.

However, people *do* get burnt out when the community beats them down and breaks their spirit. Those people are much more likely to quit, and you're not helping anyone by doing that.

 

This is so true, more true than many of you know. I have heard from people who were berated on the forums and have given up. I have watched people's spirit broken when someone tries to tell them why they can't do something.

Again, as Hippocoder said, most of the newcomers here are doing this for fun, not to make money or to start a company. It is a hobby. Would you tell a kid that he can't rebuild the old car in his garage? I hope not..my husband did that in high school and is very proud of the job he did. My daughters are making visual novels and want to be artists. While I tell them that it is competitive and difficult, I don't want someone on the forums telling them it is impossible, don't bother. They are MY children, and it is my job to guide them, not yours. If my son had come to these forums and you had treated him the way you treat some people, I would not have been happy. I would have made him dump Unity for something else. I certainly wouldn't have given him money to spend here.

A challenging hobby can help people to grow. I am sure there are people on other hobby forums that tell people not to do something because it is too hard, but at the moment, I can't think of any examples. Most hobbiest encourage others, whether it is making a quilt (which is not as easy as it looks), restoring a car, building a dollhouse, whatever.

It is in Unity's best interest that we welcome people to the hobby. They spend money in the asset store and for every 100 hobbyist that leave out of frustration or more likely, find a new hobby, maybe one will become a game developer. My son may just become one of those..and you know what? His first game is an MMO. Not only that, but he spends his meager money on asset store items and on tutorials for Unity.

 

Someone recently did.

http://alextrowers.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/your-first-game.html

 

Or maybe we could write about our experiences.

I worked with a team making an MMO for many years so feel confident we can do it. I often suggest that to newcomers who want to make an MMO. Find a team and join them. Great way to learn! Many hobby/indie MMO's need lots of help and while they often can't pay, you can learn things that just building your own game might not teach you, such as feature creep, limitations of the server, special considerations when it comes to polys/performance, etc. Plus, you get to dabble in a lot of different areas.

 

I agree,

Warn people sure, be outright rude not so much. It's that old phrase, it's not what you say it's how you say it and with text it's literally "black and white" with no middle ground. So it's easy to take things the wrong way even if it's in jest..

As @zombiegorilla says though, I wouldn't try to put them off personally. It's what they want to do and if you really want to be in the games industry suffering the trial by fire can be the best way to learn, no point limiting your scope.

 

I will point out though that some people on here are naturally just jokey about things, while those of us who frequent the forums often know it's in jest, newbies won't and may take it personally so just keep that in mind.

 

I love that this community engages in civil, productive, and positive discussions. One of the best communities I've seen.

Gigi

 

I'm not sure how we're productive given how much time we spend on these forums.

 

Short replies. More coding time.

 

True.

 

I generally post on the forum when I'm avoiding doing my actual job. Or pooping, obviously.

 

That's the one, and I agree it was more wall-of-text-and-anecdotes than bullet-points-of-pros-and-cons for my preference. But it was also way better than what we had before, which was... nothing. (The info was all in there, you just had to read a lot and actually pay attention to get it out, which I don't think is a target match for the I-want-to-make-a-huge-game-give-me-the-WOW-tute guys.) And, while confirmation bias could certainly be at play, my impression is that it seemed pretty effective. I thought things improved while it was stuck and the link was commonly used and I felt that the MMO and similar threads returned to previous levels when it disappeared.

And yes, How To Ask Questions The Smart Way is awesome, specifically for the Internet but also when communicating in general. It's kind of like How to Win Friends and Influence People for online interactions.

 

Anyway, I'd be more than happy to do this. I was seriously considering it just before Gigi posted his.

 

Hey thanks - I only wrote that because of a tweet that Rami sent. Pong is more complicated than you think - or, at least, there are easier things to right straight off the bat (no pun intended).

 

I can think of easier things, but I think it's important that there's a certain level of complexity to keep a novice interested as well. Guess-the-number might be easier to write, but it's less interesting and fun to write than Pong. Still, it's worth keeping in mind that some people mind need a gentler intro to game development than Pong affords.

 

We also funded this series http://unity3d.com/learn/tutorials/modules/beginner/your-first-game so feel free to plaster that around too.

 

This link is a great addition to the Feedback Friday series. Extra Credits' rocks!
Gigi

 

I'll take my foot off the accelerator pedal on my Gallardo. (Which doesn't exist, btw.)

 

I helped you there.

 

not really.. You're not allowed to speak out and say anything bad about Unity. Hippocoder has made that clear. he's always finding an excuse to delete these important threads. Treating customers like children is the main reason many developers have left Unity to find alternative game engines. I've spoke to many that have complained about hippo's (robert cummings) behaviour. Unity community was a better place before robert cummings became moderator.

so go on delete or lock this thread robert

 

Absolutely agree. I am not sure what's the criteria to be moderator on such important forum as Unity forum. Moderation should not be only "deleting threads and done".

 

yeah. I'm not sure if robert has really thought about what he is deleting and why it's important to allow open discussion. He is very quick to press the delete or lock button. Come on now robert you're old enough to know this will offend Unity's clients. keyword to remember robert "clients".

How would you like it if I deleted an important thread you created robert? it could effect your business and then potentially effect your income. That makes it personal robert...

 

We call it moderation when a thread is locked as there is a good reason for it. He won't lock a thread without a reason.

 

yes thats a very simple way to put it. But there can be many reasons.. hmmm maybe he cant be bothered to properly moderate the thread. it's just easier for him to lock.

my point is he is not moderating in a professional manner. He's treating clients like kids. Maybe roberts seen too many kids talking about their next best mmo and thinks everyone in this community are kids.

at this rate there wont been any senior unity game developers left in this community... only kids ..

 

Do you have some examples?

 

Thanks for taking your time to discus this Ryiah, you're a lot better at this than robert. Maybe you should be a moderator I will give examples in a youtube video I plan to make soon.

Regards
TechiTech

 

Why do you feel that a video is the best way to present it? Why not just show appropriate quotes or links here?

 

This page indicates the communities general feel about our mod and his tendency to lock threads that become argumentative, off topic, or whatever.

 

Game development takes a pretty thick skin. Gamers are going to be way more harsh on you than any moderator ever could be. If anyone leaves, I suspsect that you have it backwards and it will be the grizzled professional developers staying and the easily offended newbies leaving. But I suspect it will be us mmo button jokers and 'no you can't make GTA V' sayers that run them off before a moderator does. Also I can't really think of any examples where Hippocoder has closed a thread where I couldn't see his reason for doing it.

 

You just wanted us to see who was in second place, didn't you?

 

So I'm sure you won't mind me informing them of your personal insult and directing them back to this thread? You have thick skin right?

 

because he has deleted it and I've been making videos for a documentary about game development so you will see many examples.

 

He certainly climbed the ranks quickly enough. I had a fight getting back up to fourth place again.

That's a personal insult?

 

I may have some deep rooted psychological issues about anything that resembles a high score. I was never able to beat my dad's high score at space invaders as a kid. And spending time playing games with me was one of the key ways he showed his love for me.

It's either that or I enjoy hanging out here and people love me.

 

Sure, have at it. But I didn't name any names. So if you tell anyone I called them an easily offended newbie, then you'll actually be the one calling them that.

No fair you guys! You both have way more posts than me. I'll have to spend less time staring at Monodevelop...uhhh... I mean... making games. And more time posting.

I guess it is to someone who would make a Youtube video about a forum moderator locking threads. I should have been more sensitive.

I never paid much nevermind to that page. Now I want to know where I am at. I'm pretty sure I'm on the second page, but there is no second page so I have no idea how far I need to get to make the first page. Maybe I'll try to compete with @Tomnnn for the role of community jester. That should get me a few more likes. And you can't say anything about it, Tomnnn, because I breathe through my skin. (Though clearly not the skin on my face)