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Current moderator activity

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by hippocoder, Mar 18, 2015.

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  1. hippocoder

    hippocoder

    Digital Ape Moderator

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    I figure instead of over-moderating I'll just update people from time to time, so they can avoid being treated like naughty school children.

    Currently I'm watching for anyone who wants to start bullying newcomers with sarcastic comments since it was pointed out in mod chat that people are being a bit rough on newcomers. Sort it out guys, give everyone a friendly and straight up simple answer.

    If someone else has already answered, just figure if what you're saying makes it more or less confusing to the newcomer first. Failing that post about:

    - learn section (http://unity3d.com/learn)
    - the new unity 5 tutorials (http://blogs.unity3d.com/2015/03/16/getting-started-in-unity-5-0/)

    And finally, please don't judge their game choice. For some people it doesn't matter if they don't finish it, it's a pleasurable hobby to many.

    Thanks.
     
    Ony, Aurore, jpthek9 and 22 others like this.
  2. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Is warning somebody off making an MMO as a first project still allowed? Because the alternative is to let new users burn out after six months of no progress, and that's just mean.
     
    Gigiwoo, angrypenguin and elmar1028 like this.
  3. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    And probably it's a bit unkind to post links to learn if someone else already has. Seen a couple of posts that were followed by 5-6 people posting just links to learn.
     
  4. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    People who burn out in six months with no progress are probably not a good fit for the games industry. ;)

    I know it's common practice to tell people to try something simple first, and probably for most folks that is good advice. But someone who starts out doing an MMO, and pushes through and learns the hard way (or completes it), may very well be a rock star in the making.
     
    Ony, Meltdown, hopeful and 3 others like this.
  5. orb

    orb

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    I think warning about MMOs should be mandatory. It should be a built-in forum function. The default list of useful links for newbies should also be a magic button in the reply toolbar ;)
     
    Gigiwoo and AndyLL like this.
  6. Teila

    Teila

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    I highly suspect that most newcomers who want to make MMO's are not trying to be part of the game industry. They are instead doing a fun project with their friends.

    Let them find out on their own if a friendly "try something easier" doesn't sway them. Otherwise, they will learn a great deal and probably be better for it. We don't have to save everyone and in fact, sometimes it is better to let folks have their fun without making fun of them for doing it.

    Totally agree with the second part of your post! :)
     
    Ony, alexzzzz and Ryiah like this.
  7. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I agree re: being judgemental, however I still think it's perfectly ok to warn people of the scope of what they're doing if they don't appear to be aware of it. If they've made a conscious decision to make something big because they don't care then it shouldn't matter if someone points it out (politely). If they don't realise what they're getting themselves into and are genuinely interested in making games then I think it's worthwhile advice to give (and receive), though.

    Any thoughts on that?
     
  8. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Also, big thumbs up for posting about moderation activities.
     
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  9. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Maybe someone could write a polite and positive post describing the benefit of starting with a smaller scope if you are new to making games, and why memirs are challenging, that could be could be stickied and pointed to.

    It comes up often enough and as a result many of the responses are "start with pong". A well worded post that expands on that could be helpful and time saving.
     
    antislash, Gigiwoo, tango209 and 2 others like this.
  10. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I'm at the point where I feel like it is easier to simply direct them towards one of the easier paths for developing their MMO project (ie Hero Engine, Big World Tech) than trying to convince them they cannot pull it off.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
  11. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Oddly enough, there was such a post/thread and it was stickied and people were using it exactly as you suggest. It described both approaches and then had a lengthy discussion, from people on both sides of the fence, about starting with big projects vs. small ones. Links to that were often used rather than repeating the discussion therein, and it got occasional posts from people thanking contributors for their advice.

    Then it got un-stuck. It's barely been seen since.
     
    Gigiwoo likes this.
  12. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Was that the "I've lost my way..." or something like that? If it was that one, it was pretty vague and non-specific and kinda all over the place. I was thinking more like "How to make an MMO in Unity..." or something like that. Some that would draw the eye of anyone posting on that topic. Dunno, maybe too specific.

    You posted a few times that awesome link on "asking questions". Maybe everyone should be required to read that before being allowed to post. ;)
     
    GarBenjamin and Gigiwoo like this.
  13. Hoegbo

    Hoegbo

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    I'm writing up a summary of small tips from my 13 years of experience . I did everything wrong from the very beginning when I started so I should have a tip or two on a few pitfalls. In other words this is what I would have told my younger self.
     
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  14. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Yeah you can still say whatever you want, but if mods think its a bit too harsh they'll delete it, it's fair warning really. Not saying laugher is banned just please don't be too mean to new people :)
     
    Gigiwoo likes this.
  15. the_motionblur

    the_motionblur

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    I would say so. In that case I'd say it's not so much what you say but how you say it.
    I think a user can cope if someone tells them: "It's too ambitious probably. If you really want to proceed be prepared for disappointment because X, Y, Z ...." as opposed to being told: "Stupid Child! You want to make an MMO? lolzors. Idiot."
    The latter makes even me despite not being the target. ;)

    I also favor the notion of having a "start small" sticky. :)
     
  16. wccrawford

    wccrawford

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    There's a difference between telling newcomers that their ideas are out of scope and that they should consider starting smaller, and just outright berating them.

    It *is* possible for them to make an MMO, it's just crazy unlikely. There's no need to break their spirit. Just give them the info they want, maybe a nice suggestion that they build a few smaller games first, and let them go have their fun. It doesn't hurt the rest of us at all and they might actually surprise you.

    Not everyone gets burnt out when their first project fails. Many take it as a much-needed experience that helps them get their bearings and do better the next time.

    However, people *do* get burnt out when the community beats them down and breaks their spirit. Those people are much more likely to quit, and you're not helping anyone by doing that.
     
  17. Teila

    Teila

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    This is so true, more true than many of you know. I have heard from people who were berated on the forums and have given up. I have watched people's spirit broken when someone tries to tell them why they can't do something.

    Again, as Hippocoder said, most of the newcomers here are doing this for fun, not to make money or to start a company. It is a hobby. Would you tell a kid that he can't rebuild the old car in his garage? I hope not..my husband did that in high school and is very proud of the job he did. My daughters are making visual novels and want to be artists. While I tell them that it is competitive and difficult, I don't want someone on the forums telling them it is impossible, don't bother. They are MY children, and it is my job to guide them, not yours. If my son had come to these forums and you had treated him the way you treat some people, I would not have been happy. I would have made him dump Unity for something else. I certainly wouldn't have given him money to spend here.

    A challenging hobby can help people to grow. I am sure there are people on other hobby forums that tell people not to do something because it is too hard, but at the moment, I can't think of any examples. Most hobbiest encourage others, whether it is making a quilt (which is not as easy as it looks), restoring a car, building a dollhouse, whatever.

    It is in Unity's best interest that we welcome people to the hobby. They spend money in the asset store and for every 100 hobbyist that leave out of frustration or more likely, find a new hobby, maybe one will become a game developer. My son may just become one of those..and you know what? His first game is an MMO. :) Not only that, but he spends his meager money on asset store items and on tutorials for Unity.
     
  18. tango209

    tango209

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    Someone recently did. :)

    http://alextrowers.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/your-first-game.html
     
  19. Teila

    Teila

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    Or maybe we could write about our experiences.

    I worked with a team making an MMO for many years so feel confident we can do it. I often suggest that to newcomers who want to make an MMO. Find a team and join them. Great way to learn! Many hobby/indie MMO's need lots of help and while they often can't pay, you can learn things that just building your own game might not teach you, such as feature creep, limitations of the server, special considerations when it comes to polys/performance, etc. Plus, you get to dabble in a lot of different areas. :)
     
  20. Deleted User

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    I agree,

    Warn people sure, be outright rude not so much. It's that old phrase, it's not what you say it's how you say it and with text it's literally "black and white" with no middle ground. So it's easy to take things the wrong way even if it's in jest..

    As @zombiegorilla says though, I wouldn't try to put them off personally. It's what they want to do and if you really want to be in the games industry suffering the trial by fire can be the best way to learn, no point limiting your scope.
     
    Ryiah likes this.
  21. Aurore

    Aurore

    Head of Learn Content Production Unity Technologies

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    I will point out though that some people on here are naturally just jokey about things, while those of us who frequent the forums often know it's in jest, newbies won't and may take it personally so just keep that in mind.
     
    Ony, Tomnnn, Dustin-Horne and 5 others like this.
  22. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    I love that this community engages in civil, productive, and positive discussions. One of the best communities I've seen. :)

    Gigi
     
  23. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I'm not sure how we're productive given how much time we spend on these forums. :p
     
  24. orb

    orb

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    Short replies. More coding time.
     
    Gigiwoo likes this.
  25. jashan

    jashan

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    True.
     
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  26. Schneider21

    Schneider21

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    I generally post on the forum when I'm avoiding doing my actual job. Or pooping, obviously.
     
  27. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    That's the one, and I agree it was more wall-of-text-and-anecdotes than bullet-points-of-pros-and-cons for my preference. But it was also way better than what we had before, which was... nothing. (The info was all in there, you just had to read a lot and actually pay attention to get it out, which I don't think is a target match for the I-want-to-make-a-huge-game-give-me-the-WOW-tute guys.) And, while confirmation bias could certainly be at play, my impression is that it seemed pretty effective. I thought things improved while it was stuck and the link was commonly used and I felt that the MMO and similar threads returned to previous levels when it disappeared.

    And yes, How To Ask Questions The Smart Way is awesome, specifically for the Internet but also when communicating in general. It's kind of like How to Win Friends and Influence People for online interactions.
     
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  28. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Anyway, I'd be more than happy to do this. I was seriously considering it just before Gigi posted his.
     
    Ryiah likes this.
  29. BulkPaint

    BulkPaint

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  30. wccrawford

    wccrawford

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    I can think of easier things, but I think it's important that there's a certain level of complexity to keep a novice interested as well. Guess-the-number might be easier to write, but it's less interesting and fun to write than Pong. Still, it's worth keeping in mind that some people mind need a gentler intro to game development than Pong affords.
     
  31. Aurore

    Aurore

    Head of Learn Content Production Unity Technologies

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  32. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    Aurore and hippocoder like this.
  33. Graham-Dunnett

    Graham-Dunnett

    Unity Technologies

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    I'll take my foot off the accelerator pedal on my Gallardo. (Which doesn't exist, btw.)
     
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  34. Graham-Dunnett

    Graham-Dunnett

    Unity Technologies

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    I helped you there.
     
  35. TechiTech

    TechiTech

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    not really.. You're not allowed to speak out and say anything bad about Unity. Hippocoder has made that clear. he's always finding an excuse to delete these important threads. Treating customers like children is the main reason many developers have left Unity to find alternative game engines. I've spoke to many that have complained about hippo's (robert cummings) behaviour. Unity community was a better place before robert cummings became moderator.

    so go on delete or lock this thread robert
     
  36. Teo

    Teo

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    Absolutely agree. I am not sure what's the criteria to be moderator on such important forum as Unity forum. Moderation should not be only "deleting threads and done".
     
  37. TechiTech

    TechiTech

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    yeah. I'm not sure if robert has really thought about what he is deleting and why it's important to allow open discussion. He is very quick to press the delete or lock button. Come on now robert you're old enough to know this will offend Unity's clients. keyword to remember robert "clients".

    How would you like it if I deleted an important thread you created robert? it could effect your business and then potentially effect your income. That makes it personal robert...
     
  38. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    We call it moderation when a thread is locked as there is a good reason for it. He won't lock a thread without a reason.
     
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  39. TechiTech

    TechiTech

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    yes thats a very simple way to put it. But there can be many reasons.. hmmm maybe he cant be bothered to properly moderate the thread. it's just easier for him to lock.

    my point is he is not moderating in a professional manner. He's treating clients like kids. Maybe roberts seen too many kids talking about their next best mmo and thinks everyone in this community are kids.

    at this rate there wont been any senior unity game developers left in this community... only kids ..
     
  40. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Do you have some examples?
     
  41. TechiTech

    TechiTech

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    Thanks for taking your time to discus this Ryiah, you're a lot better at this than robert. Maybe you should be a moderator :) I will give examples in a youtube video I plan to make soon.

    Regards
    TechiTech
     
  42. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Why do you feel that a video is the best way to present it? Why not just show appropriate quotes or links here?
     
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  43. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    This page indicates the communities general feel about our mod and his tendency to lock threads that become argumentative, off topic, or whatever.
     
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  44. HemiMG

    HemiMG

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    Game development takes a pretty thick skin. Gamers are going to be way more harsh on you than any moderator ever could be. If anyone leaves, I suspsect that you have it backwards and it will be the grizzled professional developers staying and the easily offended newbies leaving. But I suspect it will be us mmo button jokers and 'no you can't make GTA V' sayers that run them off before a moderator does. Also I can't really think of any examples where Hippocoder has closed a thread where I couldn't see his reason for doing it.
     
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  45. HemiMG

    HemiMG

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    You just wanted us to see who was in second place, didn't you? :)
     
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  46. TechiTech

    TechiTech

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    So I'm sure you won't mind me informing them of your personal insult and directing them back to this thread? You have thick skin right?
     
  47. TechiTech

    TechiTech

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    because he has deleted it and I've been making videos for a documentary about game development so you will see many examples.
     
  48. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    He certainly climbed the ranks quickly enough. I had a fight getting back up to fourth place again. :p

    That's a personal insult? o_O
     
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  49. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    I may have some deep rooted psychological issues about anything that resembles a high score. I was never able to beat my dad's high score at space invaders as a kid. And spending time playing games with me was one of the key ways he showed his love for me. ;)

    It's either that or I enjoy hanging out here and people love me.
     
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  50. HemiMG

    HemiMG

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    Sure, have at it. But I didn't name any names. So if you tell anyone I called them an easily offended newbie, then you'll actually be the one calling them that.

    No fair you guys! You both have way more posts than me. I'll have to spend less time staring at Monodevelop...uhhh... I mean... making games. And more time posting.

    I guess it is to someone who would make a Youtube video about a forum moderator locking threads. I should have been more sensitive.

    I never paid much nevermind to that page. Now I want to know where I am at. I'm pretty sure I'm on the second page, but there is no second page so I have no idea how far I need to get to make the first page. Maybe I'll try to compete with @Tomnnn for the role of community jester. That should get me a few more likes. And you can't say anything about it, Tomnnn, because I breathe through my skin. (Though clearly not the skin on my face)
     
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