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CTS - Complete Terrain Shader

Discussion in 'Assets and Asset Store' started by AdamGoodrich, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. Rastapastor

    Rastapastor

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    Gone back to the Unity for now, playing with CTS :) and was again surprised by the difference between standard shader and CTS :)

    upload_2017-11-28_6-12-42.png

    upload_2017-11-28_6-12-49.png

    Guess which is standard and which CTS ?? Hehehehehe i know i know, stupid question. I love CTS, mostly because how easy it is to setup and use.

    One thing i miss from UE is a skylight to fix the shadows as u may see they are dark as hell, but will work on that :).
     
  2. sebasfreelance

    sebasfreelance

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    when importing the asset I get the following error

    Assertion failed: Assertion failed on expression: 'scriptParameterClass != NULL'

    I have eliminated directx 9 as indicated, use unity 7.2.03f

    it just happens to me with this asset
    thx
     
  3. Shawn67

    Shawn67

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    That seems to be a Unity 2017.x related bug. I've had it with several assets but after clearing it everything seems to work fine. At least in my case it has.
     
  4. FargleBargle

    FargleBargle

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    This is a Unity 2017.2 regression bug and has nothing to do with CTS. It's fixed in Unity 2017.3, which is available in beta if you can't wait for the final release. @Bartolomeus755 pointed this out in post #1192 the first time you asked about this. You should read the issue tracker page if you still have questions.
     
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  5. Rastapastor

    Rastapastor

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    Btw, can we get the Global Detail and GEO maps in a separate forlder ? I dont need to use CTS surface textures, because i have my own and its a nightmare to switch off all textures i dont need to use :). Thanks in advance.
     
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  6. AdamGoodrich

    AdamGoodrich

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    This is a great idea - I will do it in the next release.

    I really with the asset store also had the ability to do dependencies... then we could split the textures out into a separate package and have an 'essentials pack' and a 'texture library' pack.
     
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  7. Kolyasisan

    Kolyasisan

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    I've been thinking about setting CTS to work with meshes and it seems that I can't get it to work. I've exported my terrain as a mesh with Mesh Terrain Editor Free and applying a CTS Mesh Material with all the texture arrays and a control texture yields in just a black and white terrain. Am I doing something wrong? Will there be a dedicated helper or a tutorial on how to set up CTS to work with mesh terrains? That would be a tremendous help.
     
  8. Emerald_Eel_Entertainment

    Emerald_Eel_Entertainment

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    Hello! I recently purchased your asset and I'm having a blast with it! I tried to find a substance slot but there doesn't seem to be one. I need help finding it. :0
     
  9. Rastapastor

    Rastapastor

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    I also had this problem back in the day. If You use pbr textures, You could drop metalness map into (smoothness or sth like that slot, i cant remember) it fixed the issue for me :). Otherwise lower down the smoothness of the textures adn in the general settings (on top of the profile ).
     
  10. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    I was finally able to pick this asset up recently, and wow.... great tool!

    I have two questions for you (or feature requests, if there's no way to do it yet). First, is there a way to add, remove, or re-arrange the textures in the Texture Settings panel of the profile? When starting out, I dropped a couple terrain textures into the scene and then followed the instructions to add CTS and everything worked beautifully. But when I wanted to increase the number of textures, I had to go back to the terrain component's texture panel and first add a dummy texture, then bake and go back to the profile where I would either drop in a substance or add the other texture maps and fine-tune the settings. It would be great if it were possible to click a + button (or similarly, a - button) to add/remove a texture using a dummy/blank texture map, repeat as needed, and then bake from the same panel.

    My second question is also about texture array management. Is there a way that I can change the order of the textures in the list (drag to rearrange or some kind of move up/down button)? That way I could keep the terrain materials organized by type (rocks, grass, sand, etc).

    I've looked around a fair bit, but haven't found an easy way to do either. Hopefully I'm overlooking something, or they're possibly features that could be added in some future release.
     
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  11. ForgedChaos

    ForgedChaos

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    +1 to texture array management request!
     
  12. Dorian-Dowse

    Dorian-Dowse

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    I'm in the process of converting my textures to work with CTS. I noticed that some of the demo textures have "_Dry" or"_bright" versions of textures. How are these implemented?

    Also, what is the alpha used for in the demo diffuse textures?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  13. eaque

    eaque

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    Hi all,
    A question regarding the lighting. When the sun is on top let's say noon we all loose the bumpiness of the terrain and i was woundering if you guys had a solution for that?
    Cause it can be so beautiful with shadows and bump and so flat with light at 12.00.

    I tried to increase detail map so that i still have some nice shapes but according to light position it becomes terrible dark black and so. i use enviro .Is there a way to synchronize Cts and Enviro to get that result maybe applying another light only for terrains?? I will post on his forum too:p

    I would like to keep that bump all thru my day cycle ...:)
    thanks
     
  14. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    Is there a way to tell CTS to apply compression and build the array before uploading? I'm building scenes for the virtual world of SineSpace, and I'm finding that what appears to be happening is that Substances are being forced to output 2048x2048 maps even though I set the substance preset to 1024x1024, then when the scene is uploaded for processing it's uploading the .sbsar file PLUS all the maps that it already output (even the stuff I didn't need). That's making the upload hundreds of megabytes larger than it needs to be. Fortunately I don't have a data cap with my ISP, but it seems tedious & time-consuming - I'd love to be able to just send the resulting array output.
     
  15. RonnyDance

    RonnyDance

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    So finally I own CTS also. I know it took some time but I am happy to be finally a CTS user.
    Adam and Bart I have to say that you really did a great job. I used RTP until now and just switched a RTP Scene to CTS.
    The usability is fantastic and the performance is pretty awesome.

    I have some questions regarding the setup and problems I noticed before testing CTS a little bit more:
    • Smoothness is always a problem for me when using different textures from the store. I have textures using Metallic Alpha and others using Specular Alpha for Smoothness. What I did right now was adding the Specular Map for the Texture in CTS when Specular Alpha was used and adding the Metallic Map in Roughness when Metallic Alpha was used. Is this the right approach? Or do the Metallic Maps also have to be added to the Smoothness Slot when Metallic Alpha is used for Smoothness?
    • I am using the Tesselation mode but it seems that CTS does not get any Heightmap infos at all (No tesselation effect when switching from Advanced to Tesselation). Every texture has it Heightmap included in CTS. I suppose that I have to create a new terrain from scratch, because I am using a terrain which used RTP before and I simply removed all RTP components. I can change whatever Heightmap option of a texture I want like Contrast, Depth and Tess Depth and nothing is changing...
    I already posted the suggestion before but it would be more than great to just being able to import a material to the texture slots (not only a substance). So CTS can get all necessary Textures with the right values (Smoothness value, Metallic Alpha or Specular Alpha etc) immediately. This saves a lot of time and you can get the right results like the author defined when creating and offering this materials. Lot of Texture / Surface Packs come with materials included.

    Cheers
    Ronny
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
  16. Quique-Martinez

    Quique-Martinez

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    Does CTS work on iOS?
     
  17. Kolyasisan

    Kolyasisan

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    I think about solving all the footsteps stuff not working too good with CTS. I think I've got a pretty OK idea on how to deal with it.

    As we know, CTS strips all the textures when applying a profile to decrease draw calls. We can't raycast down and directly check which texture is there. However, what if we export splatmaps and, based on colours, check which texture prevails there?

    We can still raycast down or check transform of a sound emitter to get it's position and check it against terrain's splatmap in UV coordinates. Even 16-texture based terrain can work there with a very simple math, all without those nasty drawcalls.

    I'll try making a very simple example working soon. What do you think about this solution? Is it bad or very bad?
     
  18. Emerald_Eel_Entertainment

    Emerald_Eel_Entertainment

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    Since there hasn't been an answer to my previously answered question I'll have to uh, "bump" my initial question? I don't know how to apply substance materials to terrains!
     
  19. RonnyDance

    RonnyDance

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    You have to create a terrain using different textures (Use Gaia, Unity etc). Than you add CTS to the terrain and go to your CTS Profile you created. Under Texture Settings you will see your terrain textures you used for the terrain. For every texture you have a "Substance" slot where you can add your substance.

    A terrain with Albedo Textures before applying CTS is needed. CTS gets all your textures and than you can change them by adding other Maps or the Substance itself.

    Cheers
    Ronny
     
  20. Emerald_Eel_Entertainment

    Emerald_Eel_Entertainment

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    Thank you so much for the help!

    I created a new terrain via Unity's default tools, created two texture slots (grass and dirt), click on the custom-made profile, went to textures, and dragged and dropped a substance material in its place. I then clicked Bake Textures and then the changes showed up. :)

    UPDATE: Be sure to make a duplicate of the substance material before applying it to your terrain as it'll mess up the texture and replaces the substance's texture with a flat colour. It turns the substance material into a standard material. CORRECTION: I apologize. The original substance material's tiling is changed to 2048 on the X,Y; just change it back to 1,1 and you're all good.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
  21. Emerald_Eel_Entertainment

    Emerald_Eel_Entertainment

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    Oh no; I tried to add more texture slots but nothing is happening. :(
     
  22. mattis89

    mattis89

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    Hey Adam!

    I sent to your support but Im sending my issue here too in case someone knows a fix..

    Im using Terrain Hole System for my caves.... Lets you paint where it should be transparent..and then a custom material have to be assigned to the terrain...anyhow when I apply CTS this dosent work anymore...

    Do CTS have this allready? Or what can I do? Merge the transparent thing shader into cts? (Theres so many shader in cts...)

    Thanks.
     
  23. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    I have found the Substance workflow to be somewhat quirky and even broken. After initially creating slots with dummy textures I can go into the profile and choose or drop in a substance preset.

    However, CTS ignores any resolution override I have on the material and forces a 2048x2048 set of maps to be baked into separate files stored in subfolders in the CTS project folder hierarchy.

    Additionally, in order to get to the smoothness/roughness maps used in advanced mode, on most substances you need to tick the generate all outputs button, which means it’s also cooking up diffuse, metallic, specular, etc.

    I’m building scenes for a Unity-based virtual world called SineSpace. The upload process has a preflight step where things get prepped and resized in order to minimize the upload size, then it uploads to the SineSpace servers where they process everything and strip out what is no longer needed.

    I would have expected that at this stage, sincee the substances have been baked, they would not even need to be uploaded, but they are included. I had hoped that at this stage my optimization panel settings of 1024x1024 would be applied so that my uploads wouldn’t be 4x bigger than they needed, but they are not. I had also hoped (but did not expect) that my optimization panel preference to just use the texture array would be applied so I didn’t even need to bother with the individual maps, but they weren’t and so both the arrays (which seem reasonable in size) as well as the full size uncompressed bitmaps that were used to make the array) were uploaded. Inexplicably, the maps I wasn’t even using (metallic, specular, diffuse, etc) were also included in the upload. On a upload test with 16x terrain textures in the array, that made for well over 1.25gb in upload filesize.

    Once uploaded, I expected the substance files, unneeded bitmaps, or for that matter all the texture bitmaps to be discarded and the scene to just use the arrays, as per my settings in the optimization panel. Unfortunately that was not the case. My test scene which had been 55mb before CTS was now well over 900MB with a 16x texture array set to 1K compressed maps. By comparison, an earlier test with 8x 2K maps that did not use substances was under 150MB after processing.

    Thinking that the problem might be that I need to remove the substance from the profile before upload, I tried doing exactly that (since the maps are specified in fields below). After I did that, CTS was still referencing and including all that in uploads.

    My next step was to build a new empty profile from scratch and never use a substance file, just the baked maps. So far, this appears to be working, in that the upload does not include the substance files or the unneeded maps. However it’s still taking things at full resolution and so it’s a huge upload. My fingers are crossed that this time the optimization panel settings will be applied and once everything finishes uploading and processing, the filesizes will be more in line with expectations. This is a friendly tool that delivers some really beautiful results, but Substance handling and filesizes leave a lot to be desired.
     
  24. AdamGoodrich

    AdamGoodrich

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    Sorry for slow response. I have been away the past 3 days.

    Worked fine on my terrain when I just tested. Not really sure whats going on there.

    The best approach is to set the material up with standard unity terrain and CTS so that all settings are correct. Then disable the unity terrain and apply it to your mesh. The inside the material switch the shader to the cutout version.

    You need to add a normal texture to your terrain, bake your textures, and then locate it in the Texture settings in your profile and drop your substance in the slot called 'Substance'.

    We will add a '+' button to the profile editor in the next release to enable people to add new textures to a terrain as a bunch of people have had confusion with this now.

    Yeap - as per my previous comment - i think there has been enough confusion with this now. So we will add a '+' button in the next release.

    Swapping and removing textures are a different thing however. The textures are directly related to their underlying splat maps, and changing them around introduces potential sum of one issues (all the underlying splats need to sum to the value 1 at every location on the terrain). So that what seems like quite a simple logical change will have a profound impact on the underlying terrain.

    The textures are outputted at 2048, but the way they are compressed in your texture array is at whatever you set the compression settings to in your Optimization settings in your profile.

    I chose to export higher, and throw it away in the compression phase. Once your texture array has been baked, the original textures are no longer required. So its a bit of a workflow thing - but you should be able to manage this.

    Unity terrain uses alpha channel in your albedo to represent smoothness of terrain. If you do not have albedos that are set up correctly (as any that work with std unity terrain will be), then drop a smoothness or roughness map into the relevant slots on your texture and CTS will bake it into your albedo during the baking process.

    You need to drop a heightmap texture into your texture setup if you want tesselation to work properly... CTS needs this to know how to render the heights for each texture.

    Interesting suggestion. I am wary of adding too many options to the user interface because the more I add the more complex it becomes, and the harder people find it to use.

    I believe so. I have never tried. Has anyone here had any success with this?

    You need to enable cutouts in the CTS script on the terrain itself, create a mask and drop the mask into the relevant slot.

    Hehe... you should have tried coding it :) Substance support in Unity is flakey at best, and will be removed completely in Unity 2018.

    CTS extracts at 2k, and then compresses as needed in the texture array it creates. After the bake has happened your original textures are no longer needed so you can delete them.

    While I have done what I can to automate this for the vast majority of use cases, if this is really giving you grief then the only suggestion I have is to go back to the old way i.e. export each of the substance textures as normal textures and drag into the relevant slot in your profile.
     
  25. shamsfk

    shamsfk

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    Where is that info coming from? I cant find no mention of removing substance support or anything. It sounds very bad thou. Substance is the best it is when speaking texturing.

    And another question - I have a drastic frame rate drop with CTS Basic, from 65+ with Unity's shader to 25-35, using 6trtures with normal maps, is it a usual result?
     
  26. AdamGoodrich

    AdamGoodrich

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    Read it somewhere. Suspect it was on an alpha news group.

    No. However you do need to be aware that CTS does a lot more than the unity shader (all that visual goodness doesn't come for free), so on lower texture counts you should expect a slightly lower frame rate.

    Try grabbing our basic demo from the web site and see what frame rates you get with that.

    http://www.procedural-worlds.com/cts/demos/cts-demos/

    If you are getting really poor frame rates even with our demo then your options are to upgrade your hardware or try another terrain shader.
     
  27. snacktime

    snacktime

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  28. mattis89

    mattis89

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    Do you have time to make a quick tutorial regarding cutout masking for people who want to make a cave entrance? :) you dont have to sound so polite and nice :D xD I couldnt find any tutotial or docs about it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  29. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    I don't doubt that coding it (or any other part of it) was challenging at best. I'm kind of looking forward to Allegorithmic taking the reins back in 2018.1, while that will come with its own challenges I think they'll be a lot more responsive and possibly much more supportive of developers trying to integrate with their ecosystem.

    An update - building a clean profile using the same 16 terrains as I had with Substances but just using baked maps dramatically reduced the upload size. It was still pretty massive and took 6 hours, but that's considerably less time than the previous attempt. The resulting scene weighed in at 374MB, a 2/3 reduction on a region using the same 16 terrains. I'm not sure if it's something with the way SineSpace processes, or if it's something with CTS, but it seems that redundant files are being included and held onto when substances are used. If there was a way to bake the maps and discard the substances in a prep stage, that could save a lot of time and heartache, perhaps.

    My next test is to go back to those baked maps and set overrides to 1024x1024 and turn on compression/crunch. Based on the rate that this new upload is going, it seems clear that the override is being processed during preparation and the resulting upload is smaller... which is great progress. If the region processing is handling the CTS optimization panel settings properly, it shouldn't make too much of a difference on the resulting scene file size (because I've set it to 1024x1024 with compression). If the resulting region is noticeably smaller, then it would seem that the optimization panel's settings aren't being processed properly.

    I'm working with Adam F at SineSpace to help work through the logs and figure out what's happening on their end, we both agree it's a great tool and he's pretty committed to doing whatever he can to make sure CTS works well on their virtual world.
     
  30. Warsoul

    Warsoul

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    Did it work with World Machine Maps ?
     
  31. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    That last test finished uploading, and not only took less time but resulted in a scene size of only 137MB. I changed no settings in the scene or the CTS profile, the only difference was to use overrides on the terrain texture maps. This leads me to believe that for some reason the settings in the optimization panel are not being applied (since it was already set to adjust size to 1024 and use compression).

    I'm pretty pleased with the results so far, 16x terrain textures in advanced modes with maps in all the slots at 1024.
     
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  32. RonnyDance

    RonnyDance

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    I was able to fix the issue. It was because of RTP changes Heightmap Information which CTS could not work with.

    Totally with you here. Anyway all Texture sellers on the store are offering textures with materials an not with substances. So I think this feature is far more important than substance support. And well one slot will not kill the easyness and great usability of CTS in my opinion. It would just be an optinal slot like the substance one. If someone has the material great, if not add the maps manually.

    A question about the Snow feature:
    After doing some testing with Enviro:
    Could it be, that the Weather Manager is overwriting the Snow Options set in the profile?
    I want to have Snow permanent on top of mountains which I achieve by setting Minimum Height to 400 and Height Blend to 40 in the Snow settings.
    When using Weather Manager with Enviro those settings are overwritten / reseted and I don't see my permanent snow on the mountains anymore cause Weather Manager is applying snow over the whole terrain. With RTP and Enviro this was no deal. Is it possible to not overwrite the permanent snow set in the Snow settings and just draw snow effect on runtime through Weather Manager starting from the min height set in the Snow Settings and going down to min height set in the Weather Manager? Normally snow is applied on higher places first going down to lower places. High mountains always have snow peaks which I can not achieve right now because of this issue.

    Cheers
    Ronny
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  33. shamsfk

    shamsfk

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  34. AdamGoodrich

    AdamGoodrich

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    We have a color map feature which should work fine to blend world machine maps into your terrain.

    I will re-test and check - maybe i broke it at some point. Its quite easy to see if its working, as when you change the size and rebake the texture array, its size changes.
     
  35. FrozenEmpire

    FrozenEmpire

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    Hi, I had the same issue that my previous terrain hole shader had to be sacrificed when upgrading to CTS. Of course the benefits of upgrading to CTS far outweighed the losses, however I have to say that I find the method of creating a global alpha mask for cutouts externally and baking it in doesn't offer any user-friendliness at all if you want to position cutouts accurately on the terrain. It is painstakingly hit and miss....

    So I actually modified the CTS shaders with a few tweaks that allowed it to take instead the cutout alpha from a designated texture slot.. this brings the following benefits:
    - You can paint the cutouts onto the terrain directly as with all other textures
    - You don't need to enable the global color map just to get cutout functionality
    - I think you could spawn cutouts as with other textures using Gaia (but I didn't try this yet)

    My suggestion is that you consider to adjust to this kind of approach as the default, as it is so much more user friendly which you have said is really important for your assets ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  36. mattis89

    mattis89

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    I pm you.
     
  37. MrG

    MrG

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    That needs to be sent in through a support ticket (with the shader code changes) here. :)
     
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  38. Mark_01

    Mark_01

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    I would imagine Adam and Bart would be happy to look at that code. It's nice to have people being constructively helpful. Nice community spirit :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  39. recon0303

    recon0303

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    I agree it would be nice to have, but more important? I disagree.. Substance has been around and more and more users are using it , the reason a lot of people just use textures, is because one they don't own any substance tools.. two, they own it but dunno how to make optimized substances... But Substance is the future in many ways... So in that regard, I will disagree on how important it is. Far as textures being sold on the store, I have no ldea I do not buy them.... Now the more experience substance users, use substances and they look great in Unity, and using CTS..... Also many like the fact it has mega scans support, I don't know any other tool that does..


    If you look at many AAA games and even some indies, Substances are used...though out the game as well as mega scans.


    Main reason Substances are NOT sold as much on the store, refer to other comments.

    But I do like your idea and agree would be nice.. but as a UX/UI designer, my trade...anything is possible, in CTS, issue is, to many tools keep adding and adding features, then it becomes one big ass bloated useless tool that no one can use.. Adam is one of very few people I would agree does a great job with UX...... a huge % do a terrible job with them....

    But I do see what your saying, would be nice for sure. /cheers


    PS: I think another reason substances aren't sold on the store as much alone they take awhile to make and hard to make money off, of....So what some do is sell 3D models with substances, to enhance there asset..
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  40. Mark_01

    Mark_01

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    Normally I don't post links when possible. This is not a competing product at the present time.

    I found this it works great in Gamma mode only .. but its fast and decent results when you just need / want a fast missing map, it's less then a coffee at some places
    https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/39216

    I was thinking yesterday , no reason you can't use substance designer to make missing maps from a Albedo texture. Any one with a rudimentary understanding of substance designer ( me :D ) would not have a hard time setting up a albedo texture input in substance , set to fixed output size, of the map.. add the other outputs to the other needed maps .. you could even do adjustments in substance for better outputs of the other maps.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
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  41. recon0303

    recon0303

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    Agreed on the substance part... Issue some have, is not optimizing them properly, so very important.
     
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  42. FrozenEmpire

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    Done! Hopefully it will be built into a future version...
     
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  43. Game-Armada

    Game-Armada

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    Just playing around and testing CTS..

    tc2_test1.jpg tc2_test2.jpg tc2_test3.jpg
     
  44. mattis89

    mattis89

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  45. NatureManufacture

    NatureManufacture

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    We will add cutout as paintable texture mask:)
     
  46. Game-Armada

    Game-Armada

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    ~10 fps on a GTX760
    ~60 fps on a GTX1080

    no optimization at all, with Tesselation CTS shader type...
     
    mattis89 likes this.
  47. NatureManufacture

    NatureManufacture

    Joined:
    May 20, 2014
    Posts:
    1,611
    Play with LOD's values at shader, tess max distance and check - optimisation box in profle. It will brock painting but it will change render into first pass.
     
  48. Rastapastor

    Rastapastor

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Posts:
    104
    You have a lot of grass there :), perhaps thats what impacts performance on the 760, what is the comparison with the standard shader ?
     
  49. Game-Armada

    Game-Armada

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Posts:
    62
    anyhow, when using tesselation and displace, the physics won't react to these areas. Any workarounds or solutions?
     
  50. Game-Armada

    Game-Armada

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Posts:
    62
    yes, these complex trees and grass killing the fps, not the terrain. CTS is fast and cool :)