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Could I make a living being an Indie Game Dev?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MrSanfrinsisco, Sep 28, 2018.

  1. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    I found less polys than Minecraft lol

    Making things in minimum of time is not always the best direction.
    Some successful 2D mouse click games have simple graphics, but there has been enough work put on graphics making they have something special. Until you like a lot the minimalist style and it's not only to make things faster but the art direction you choose.
    I would say making things in a way it stays fun and does not become a frustration.

    Perhaps you'll work faster in low poly 3D and progress, find it easy and stay fast to add more polygons.

    I like how it UV and use color textures, it's a very fast way to make gradient colored models
    https://twitter.com/minionsart

     
  2. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    LOL. That character looks interesting. Has a "fun" look to it.

    Thank you for clarifying that. You are right. Really it is about keeping development fun and not frustrating feeling overloaded with way too much workload. That's exactly the heart of it. And the solution to that for me is to minimize the workload simplify the graphics because that is an area that scales up very quickly in terms of time needed.

    Laboring for a long time on graphics isn't fun to me in the context of making a game. I mean yes it is enjoyable to work on graphics same as it is enjoyable to create sounds and music. But doing those I want to focus on what is needed for the game. Because I need to do design and audio and programming and extensive playtesting & balancing, etc in addition to graphics. For me the fun is in creating the game itself. The whole game experience. Bringing it to life.
     
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  3. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    It's simple to explain, you're more a coder than a graphics guy lol
    You have more fun on the game coding and music, so you need to focus on those, go with what you like.
     
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  4. GarBenjamin

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    Well... it is kind of... but kind of not. It mainly really is the full requirements of the game. Like I enjoy programming greatly but I don't spend time building complex abstract systems.

    Like I mentioned previously in this thread I am not even using an oop language now for my game dev. I do always modularize and use a sort of ood approach but I don't "get lost in the code" designing elaborate fancy solutions.

    I am programming my games in BASIC now and I use the same approach as when I made that thread here a couple of years back. I have a series of managers. PlayerManager (handles player interaction with game), PlayerUnitManager (handles everything to do with the units), EnemyWaveManager, EnemyManager, etc. Very simplistic and keeping it all simple makes it so not only is development rapid from the start but it is very easy to extend and track down bugs because there are not layers and layers of complexity to work through.

    So again... it is really just a focus on game dev as a whole. On completing games instead of getting lost working a long time on any one aspect of game development. I call those black holes.

    In software development we call it overengineering. But it applies to everything. Graphics. Audio. Programming. Design. To me these are all potential black holes where a person can get lost and spend weeks and months maybe even years working thinking they are being very productive but really they are just lost in there working away without any real need to be.
     
  5. I was referring to the style. BTW I never played StarFox and I had no Nintendo, I was holding to my good ol' C64 as long as I could and then I went straight to PC (286).

    And you know even there I wasn't really playing the blocky, 3D-wannabe stuff (I admit, I tried, I think I played two whole levels of Tomb Raider at some point). But it's too distracting to me. There is a threshold somewhere which I haven't found yet, probably because I don't mind 2D, I don't mind pixel-art, I don't mind detailed, but cartoon-style, I do mind this stylized low-poly design. But well, the lucky thing is that people are different with different taste, otherwise it would be boring. :)
     
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  6. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    I agree It's up to to evaluate your skills and how much work you can put on something until it's too much or becomes no more fun and overwhelming.
     
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  7. GarBenjamin

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    Basically when I am developing a game I look at what is the most important thing to do right now. It could be anything and there are a lot of things to complete a game. It might be getting a basic overall game structure skeletoned out. Or maybe further along it is increasing feedback of some event in the game so once I make that choice then I think what is the easiest & quickest way to do that in a meaningful way.

    I don't design out in detail. I have a high level view and let things evolve I call it developmental design. Things always change and we never have the right picture at the very beginning. So staying fluid is important.

    So for the feedback item say an enemy being damaged for example I may think of 3 to 5 different ways it could be implemented so I try to choose the one that has the most bang for the buck. Meaning the best combination of effectiveness vs work / time required to implement.

    I approach the entire game development process that way from start to finish. I am by no means perfect at it. Just saying that is how I approach it. The focus is always on completing the game by using the best combination of benefit vs cost.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  8. zenGarden

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    It's called prototype, a very rough version of gameplay, with blocky graphics.
    I'm doing one for some lightweight dungeon like game with many new gameplay ideas, i use cubes of different sizes for level and start right away coding some gameplay ( enemies doing basic moves, one magic spell, rpg stuff coming later).
    The most important, i have already main environments and characters rough design, game direction, how it plays, main features, put down as text file.
    Always detail the game content before starting graphics or coding.


    For people that don't mind good crafted environment, there is lot of procedural generators, it's something that speed up a lot the game creation.
    Some triple A games would have not have been possible without all content procedural (terrain, houses models, villages layout , roads )
    https://80.lv/articles/procedural-world-building-in-ghost-recon-wildlands/
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  9. GarBenjamin

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    Prototyping is similar and very powerful but not same thing here. I might use prototyping to help me choose the way that has the best cost to benefit ratio but other times I may not. It is more of a development philosophy or project management kind of thing. To keep the project on track and development moving efficiently. Definitely prototyping is a great way to answer those questions which has the best cost to benefit ratio... option A or option B?

    As long as it works for you that is what is important. Sounds like you are making good progress and if snything people should know by now I am a big believer in everyone is different everyone needs to find what works for them. Although I also do think there are general things that do work for the bulk of people.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  10. zenGarden

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    Yeah, stick with what you like to do.
     
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  11. GarBenjamin

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    It was good sharing and digging into the various case studies presened and so forth. We brought some interesting things to light... people that as @neoshaman said don't really fit the narrative so are largely ignored by the bulk of mainstream game media yet are in fact highly successful.

    I need to focus on my game. Progress has been slower due to falling into a black hole of forum discussion. It's fine though because it's good sometimes to just connect with other game devs.

    I will return I am sure after I make some solid progress on my current game ideally wrapping it up. Might be a couple of days or might be a couple of weeks.

    Yes... finally peace & quiet again from my ramblings challenging conventional thinking. LOL! Good luck on your projects! :)
     
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  12. zenGarden

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    About what you use to make a game, i think there is no rule, it's up to you, it depends on the scope of the game, and where you want to put the work to make the game.
    You can use full 3D engines , create your own 2D or 3D engine, or use something between , for example some people use source code to customize UE4 to specific needs.
    StarChild game is an example of custom engine written for that specific game and the result is looking good.
    https://twitter.com/kidbabygame

    While it can be a waste of time for people that don't want to re invent the wheel and prefer a lot to have already the tools and focus on game creation.
     
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  13. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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  14. zenGarden

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    Some tool i use a lot for low poly and low poly hard surface modeling is Silo.
    It is more lightweight than Blender, very smooth and fast to work with, i have more fun in Silo than Blender.

     
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  15. GarBenjamin

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    I made some good progress! Still not done but am content for now.

    That game looks extremely good. Very nice quality and very interesting too. Much more so to me than many I have seen.

    Absolutely on it not mattering what you use. I mean look at all of the different things people have used and are using to make super popular games with. Stardew Valley was made with C# & XNA. MDickie made most of his games in Blitz3D. Many popular games made with Gamemaker. I am sure there are many in Construct. Many with Unity. Many with Unreal. Crypt of the NecroDancer was made in Monkey X. And so forth. I'm pretty sure I saw one last year or year before made in Blitz Max.

    The only real criteria for what you use is can you develop the games you want to easily & quickly and can it support your target platform(s). Those are the only things that really matter. I enjoy AppGameKit development very much but I am going to make a tiny game in Construct 2 or 3 at some point. I need to know how it works for me. If I find C2/C3 is just as enjoyable & faster to develop with OR if it is more enjoyable and just as fast to develop with then I will start using Construct for my 2D games. Doesn't mean I'd have anything against AGK just means I found something that worked better for me personally (if it actually does).

    At the end of the day the goal here is not to win programming prizes and similar it's to complete games. Well... some people might be trying to win awards for programming, graphics, music, etc but you know what I mean. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
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  16. GarBenjamin

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    I just spent some time digging around on itch.io and YT for 3D games with nice clean looking visuals that look at least somewhat reasonable to create as far as time goes.

    I think something like these would be the very top limit I'd ever consider.

    This one is voxel but so detailed I don't know if I would ever go this route but someone here might find it very doable. It certainly looks fantastic. Super clean, colorful, detailed, interesting.


    This is kind of an older style but the graphics workload is out of scope for me. Might be a great choice for someone though.


    This one is an interesting mash-up of realistic terrain with very smoothly animated low poly looking characters. Again... not something for me but maybe someone. This game is super popular and highly rated on Steam.


    And this is another interesting kind of built out of smaller components (they are robots after all) style... this is almost in the realm of reason for me and is probably certainly very good for many people...


    This one is more doable but I think it still might be just a bit too detailed on the characters for what I'd do. But maybe not. It seems like a good combination of simplicity and interesting look. It really depends on what the game overall scope is. What is the game how much content is needed.
     
  17. GarBenjamin

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    So this next set is more along the lines of what I am thinking of...

    Basically this is not much different from the last one in my post above but the big difference is a lack of needing to do a bunch of vertex coloring or texturing because of the lighting overall visual style of the game. Mainly single colored objects everywhere. And that makes a difference cutting down on the workload.


    Now we're getting into the good stuff. The modeling workload here is extremely reasonable. The animation requirements would annoy me but I could probably live with it.


    Now everything gets very reasonable. This is the kind of character animation that takes an extremely reasonable amount of time. And overall everything looks very good!


    Again the character modeling & animation here extremely reasonable...


    This one does have actual animation but the modeling workload is so low for the characters and basically any ultra low poly assets could be used for everything else so the workload ends up very good.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  18. GarBenjamin

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    And then there is one more approach and that is reducing the workload through game design...

    Like this is very smart. The world looks very nice but wait... where are the animation requirements for the characters... oh it seems we only see a weapon and the bulk of the enemies appear to be simple geometric shaped targets. Really clever design.


    Same kind of thing taken to the next level and we get a good dose of that "crazy ideas" stuff as well for a win win. Basically you just use whatever assets you want and make a game that doesn't even make sense but it is after all a game so it doesn't have to... it just needs to be a great experience.
     
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  19. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    I think you will really have fun with Construct.
    It is still subscription or does it have full license buying option like Game Maker 2 (i own GM 2 and i like it, really good) ?

    Yeah. No one will be an hero for making some amazing graphics game like many do, you do some amazing game perhaps and it gets popularity, then players move on the next game.
    I think it must be passion first, instead trying to impress others LOL

    Yeah, there is lot of possibilities for those not very skilled in graphics, some simplistic styles have lot of charm.

    The gameplay seems very precise, animations and camera are very smooth, sounds and ambient sound are good, the game should be highly enjoyable, specially for those that enjoy fast precise gameplay like Dark souls games.

    There is other simple style like Ashen game

    or this indie one


    I like a lot the trees design, low poly but well rounded with some details, and the color palette with lighting is very well choosen.
    Having enemies as simple shapes helps a lot indeed, this is like people doing games that are not based on characters, like racing, space ship or whatever it's more easy.

    There is many flat polygons quality models packs you could buy if you find it boring or complicated to create such models.
    I mean anyone could make such games with good coding knowledge, the 3D art is not a problem and those games have simple level design, they don't need to be very complex environment models and design to be great.

    Most important i always start very small scope , the very basic gameplay first and make it (a first level). When it works you can polish camera , animations, some graphics or add features.

    Your next game will be 3D right ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
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  20. GarBenjamin

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    I actually bought GMS 1 at one time opened it up, checked it out for 5 to 7 minutes and found it so confusing I closed it back down. I did return to it again but still found the workflow so tedious. As you might remember I am just not wired to work well in these GUI-based tools.

    BUT I check out games people make so much including from game jams where people record themselves live making the games and when a person is truly making a game in 2 days and some of those are quite impressive having done ALL of the work... making everything during that time that gets my attention. I looked into some of them closer and found a good % of the 2D games were using Construct 2.

    So I checked it out. Construct 2 and the online Construct 3. And I was very surprised because although it is all GUI-based the design, layout of the interface, etc I found to be so logical it was very easy to work with. And I made a little one scrolling stage game test thingy with some platforms, a few enemies and a player with Idle, Walk and Jump states. It really impressed me with how easy it made it all. I was able to just focus on getting stuff done. So yes I definitely will explore it more at some point!

    Yes I think that is a big thing. If you don't have a passion as a gamer for what you are making how can you expect anyone else to? You'll notice that in most game videos reviews, quick looks etc including the ones I posted above what are the people talking about mainly? What you can do. In the end that is what matters and why games people might think at first glance could never be popular actually are very popular. Because they are very interesting as far as what they allow a person to actually do inside that virtual world.


    Yeah that's an excellent example I think. And again it shows that focus on the playability. It does have polish and care put in it but you can see it is very focused on the parts that matter... the combat.

    Yes I think that game looks superb all around and definitely agree choice of colors are so important. And yes anything that is focused around stuff like ships, planes, boats, etc instead of humanoids, insects, animals and so forth reduces the workload on the modeling and reduces the workload a huge amount on the animation side.

    Yes that's the plan! I have done several projects in 3D now in AGK so it should go very well. I see it all basically the same from a programming perspective. 2D or 3D. But I am kind of burnt out finally on 2D and need a break from it.

    You might remember this one where a few of us here had a sort of informal mini jam a year ago...


    My next 3D project was to build a 3D world / level editor...


    Then I took a break for a while. And when I returned to game dev I focused on just trying to help the AGK community so made a number of different project examples & templates that I released for free on the forums over there. And one of those was this "Old School" style FPS template. It has the basics in for designing levels using the free 2D Tiled map editor (layer for floor, layer for walls, layer for ceiling, layer for lights, layer for enemy positioning, layer for defining enemy paths, etc), player control, health, mana, collectibles, doors, basic AI (the enemies follow the paths, if they see you go into attack mode, when severely damaged they go into flee mode literally turning yeller and running away quickly), automatic unlocked door opening, x-ray vision mode, etc. Basically just things for options or collectibles people might want for such a game.

    Another of the templates I made during that time although in 2D it is quite solid for a starting point...


    Then I took a little break. And when I started my current game project there was a thread over there about 3D graphics / games. Basically talking about using the ultra low poly flat shading style so some of us did a few tests playing around with that. This was my tiny experiment... just some very simply ultra low poly models with vertex colors flat shaded and some lighting fx. I was going to build a little cabin but ended up not completing it all. But this way it looks kind of like someone is in the process of building a cabin and the saucer decided where they cleared the ground was an ideal landing spot for them...
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  21. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    This seems definitively the 2D tool that works great for you to be very productive, so keep using Construct i would say lol


    Strangely cubes fit better the game instead of capsules lol
    Yeah, there has been good polish about the gameplay, it's not some rough gameplay and camera made in 10 minutes using templates.

    Cartoonish animations is a way to reduces a lot the animation complexity.
    You can make many animations using one frame only, for example the walk animation is one frame only, the middle frame is the first frame duplicated and mirrored.



    Those 3D projects you made are cool specially the shoot them up.
    It should not be hard for you to make some cool 3D game, you got basics covered already.
    3D Runner games are easy ones for example, while exploration with simple enemies shapes and weapons visible only should not be so hard also.

    I think the game uses baked normal maps instead of flat colors textures, there is some smoothing on trees edges with lighting, it looks better than flat only textures.
    Perhaps it's a new graphic style that will become popular ? I should give it a try.
    (low poly modeling, convert to high res mesh , bake normal map)
     
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  22. GarBenjamin

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    Just thought I'd clarify when I said I'm finally burnt out on 2D. Just mean I have played so may platform & other 2D games over the past many years (truly literally thousands of them might be over 10,000 from retro games to GameJolt games, Itch games, game jam games, testing games made by other developers such as here and then of course the games I have bought) that I don't see much of anything new & fresh & interesting anymore. Mainly the same things again & again & again just with better graphics or simply different graphics. I see platform games, top down twin stick shooter games and top down rpg games so often in particular. And it's like same mechanics over and over... jump, wall jump, climb, read this, talk to them, etc.

    I don't know if everyone just truly loves that stuff so they make the same thing with different graphics, different stories, or if people are setting out to copy previous Indie popular games or what exactly. I believe absolutely there are plenty of ways to innovate. And maybe it is a fear to do so. Kind of like you mentioned maybe a lot of people are too worried about impressing other game devs or something to try weird stuff, new stuff so they stick to the tried & true.

    There is plenty of room for innovation. I've been looking forward to the release of the demo for this game ever since I first stumbled upon it on Twitter a few weeks or ago...


    Playable demo was just released 4 hours ago. They built up over 2,100 followers while creating and sharing screenshots, gifs and videos of this very interesting game. The amount of stuff in the game is just crazy and done in a very cool interesting way so different from the norm. It's just nice to see something fresh and not same ole same ole looks same ole this same ole that.

    The bullet points are:
    • Over 60 maps containing more than 300 unique monsters
    • 12 boss monster maps
    • 5 special maps with many diverse minigames (for example a trading card battle arena)
    • Over 1300 unique items to equip and activate (!!!)
    • Over 500 different skills to learn (!!!)
    • 150 levels (each level unlocks new items and skills) ... this is talking about character levels as in leveling up

    As you can see this is massive and so far beyond what the majority of Indies are making there is no comparison. And I think the graphics are fine but again if they had made it look like the tens of thousands of other beautiful looking Indie games it would have made such a huge hit to the game itself to have turned it into just another "me too" game. Of course they have another year to release so it is possible they will get some people from the player community who would love to redraw everything but I also think the current "looks" are part of the appeal of the game.

    What the dev delivered is... Sm4R is a crazy singleplayer 2D sidescroller RPG where you hunt monsters, complete quests, party up with other (bot)players and play minigames. By doing that you collect experience points and level up to increase your stats and skills. Find rare items and upgrade them to the max to become #1 of all players in your personal offline Sm4R world! Sm4R is a satire of typical MMORPG grinders. You'll be involved in varied and weird stories that may or may not remind you of your personal MMO experience.

    I plan on checking this out tonight. It might be terrible I don't know. It just looks like the dev has put a ton of stuff to do into the game and had a lot of fun doing so in crazy ways.

    I never knew about the mmorpg parody thing until today. I just wanted to give it a try purely to hunt monsters, grind my way up in power try out the skills and upgrades and play the various mini games. I hope the mmorpg bot party parody thing doesn't actually ruin it for me. Be really cool if we can just turn that off and go truly solo without the bots.

     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
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  23. zenGarden

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    I don't spend time playing each average to good enough indie game, i only play the best acclaimed 2D or 3D games.
    Perhaps you should be a bit more selective and play only those that really worth it ?

    About majority of small indie games, lot of people just make clones, perhaps because they use the same templates and tutorials, while there is always possible to add some twists and new ideas to en existing game genre.

    I know this game, i found the idea super fun lol

    I think we need more games like that, remember Sega Crazy Taxi or Jet Set Radio, Panzer Dragoon, they was original concepts.
    It's mainly indie games that proposes new things big studios won't make, fortunately from time to time we get new indie games that are real gems :)

    Quality games is lacking on indies, for example this one has great 2D animations and effects, very few 2D rpg reach that level. Perhaps its' another Zelda clone, but it has it's own ideas and it's own story, characters and world design. I don't find it is a simple clone and it should worth it.
    https://twitter.com/LastMoonGame

    Nintendo very successful games are always the same, for example all Zelda fames , but they have some twists and new ideas making them like new games, with new gameplay ideas.
     
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  24. GarBenjamin

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    I play them all. Well not literally every game I come across. :p But I do check out every game I come across that looks even remotely like it has potential to be something interesting. And by that mean just what the game is about, what it seems like a player might be able to do in the game and sometimes just truly to check out another person's "take" on making a certain kind of game.

    There's really no way to know which games are worthwhile other than playing them or at least checking out a gameplay video of them. I mean there's nothing to go by. I can't go by the descriptions. I can't go by the graphics. I can't go by whether it was made in a 2 day game jam or a 3 year game project. I also think it is very beneficial to gain the experience of playing so many different games.

    That's true. I think that is a big part of it many times because if too reliant on templates and so forth they might want to do other things but they simply aren't supported. And possibly because they relied on using the template they don't know how to actually do it themselves. Maybe. I could see this for some cases for sure.

    Also it takes a lot of work just to get the basics in there. I never made a tower defense style game before. I don't care much for the very popular TD style games but have found a couple little known games that were enjoyable. I wanted to make a TD style game that I would play and had some specific goals making it play in a way I could envision such a game playing as an arcade game. Basically streamlining the controls, giving it more of an action feel, realtime not turn-based, etc. Anyway, I have spent 99 hours of development on this game now. Right now it is basically a very solid defense game. And feedback has been very good on the demo.

    BUT... now what I am wrestling with is... do I finish it off (add the remaining content as far as end of day messages, ambience/music, some more sounds, etc) or do I go ahead and do the things I had originally envisioned: alternating modes of gameplay and occasionally having a monster drop a mega powerful BIG fx power up the player can click on to collect.

    On the other hand I set the development budget for the game at 100 hours. I will not finish the game as it is by that point but I think I can finish it by 105 hours. Adding mini game modes and mega powerups would be a good size workload. Not sure I want to spend another 20 to 45 hours on doing those things. So that is the dilemma. These other things are a big part of what makes this particular defense style game unique to me and different from the others.

    Taking a break doing no dev now and will figure out which way to go. But anyway that is possibly what happens for other devs too and they release it.

    Yeah I agree and get that completely and this is why it boggles my mind when I hear and see so many Indies trying to model AAA games. I am thinking people the whole idea originally was that Indies could make different games, weird games, small games, 2D games, ugly games, crazily big games, etc... make any kind of game the AAA studios are NOT making. lol So I don't get it when I see people continually looking at the AAA games as the ideal of what Indies should be striving to produce.

    There are a lot of clones for sure. A lot of them. I also think there are a lot of quality unique Indie games. Of course for any person only a small percentage of the games will be interesting to them but overall there has been a lot of great games made. I mainly prefer games made by solo developers and tiny teams but even then of course it will only be a tiny % of all of those games that interest me.

    On the bright side... this is why you should make the games. Make those quality games that are missing! And I think there is still plenty of innovation left and I think it is primarily on the gameplay side adding more to do & experience inside the game worlds. A person just has to get back to what they think when playing games. "It would be so cool if the game had this... I wish the game let me..." :)

    To me "retro games" isn't just graphics & sounds. It's much more than that and refers to a time when developers were still heavily experimenting and there was loads of creativity, variety and a much more personal influence on the games mainly because of smaller team size (including solo developers for many of the very early games).

    Indies brought all of that original craziness and creativity back making games in genres that hadn't been seen in a long time and instilling the personal thing into many games as well. Now there seems to be a movement for many Indies to follow the same path. Which is expected history tends to repeat itself. But I'll nearly always prefer the crazy games, the unique games, the games with a personal touch of only one game developer or a very tiny team over the other.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  25. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    Very true.
    I seen so much people that are not coders or not experienced asking some plugin to support x or y features for their own specific need. But the plugin dev can't bring each hundred user specific feature to it's plugin lol

    Don't force yourself, perhaps complete the game and that's it.

    There are both on indie market, and there is place for both.
    Those trying to get the best graphics, sometimes with new gameplay ideas.
    And those going stylish or crazy game ideas.

    Sure qualiy is lacking.
    For example the cubes combat game has amazing combat gameplay, while the style stays entertaining almost comic because they are cubes lol

    It's a matter of taste, some people prefer fps, other rpg, orther platformers.
    Some indies try to reach big audience, while others prefer to reach a specific niche that works well also.

    For crazy games, there are already a lot, did you not search correctly ?
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/670930/Escape_Doodland/
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/529420/Crazy_Sapper_3D/
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/855740/Bum_Simulator/
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/484890/Crazy_Otto/
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/292200/Crazy_Plant_Shop/
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/914680/Crazy_Alchemist/

    It's only very few doing a quick search, but there is lot more than that.
     
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  26. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    Maybe the quality comes from the combination of it being simple cubes and excellent combat gameplay. It certainly makes it a more unique & memorable experience compared to something like very realistic looking smoothly animated humanoid warriors or even beautiful low poly humanoid warriors for example. Graphics do matter in some ways for sure I just never agree with the idea they always should look like a professional artist spent eternity making them. How does that stand out really? Something like this is a great example oh how probably most people would remember the scenes of these cube warriors battling longer than remembering the same for going high detail the other way. This is less generic in a sense. It is less common.


    I don't know. Maybe I didn't search correctly... did you search correctly? LMAO

    I know there are a lot of "crazy" / fresh ideas in Indie games a lot of those are quality Indie games. Often they are "too weird" for me I can't connect with them but some people do I am sure. But you'll have that with anything.

    Games like Papers Please and the Stanley Parable were very popular with a lot of people. There are also a lot of people who do not find them interesting at all. I recognize what they did... what they were doing and they did a great job on it very well made great quality. But neither are something that I personally have an interest in playing although I did try SP a couple of times just to check it out.
     
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  27. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    I think you got your answer.
    Imagine how many Tomb Raider alike games would you play, if ever game would have similar concept and similar characters. Providing is not a franchise. If you got flood of tons of similar games, which one is really standing out?

    Every one (exaggerating) is trying copy what already on the market. Hence lack of uniqueness. Not to mention often lack of playability. Sounds and music generic. Hence nothing to memories.

    With current available assets, I think FPS are the easiest games to produce. Hence flood ... that my mop brain don't take it ...



    So going opposite direction toward simplicity, makes at least chance to stand out (minecraft i.e.)
     
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  28. GarBenjamin

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    I played that Sm4R game. It took time to get into it simply because of the sheer amount that is in it. A crazy amount of detail and just stuff in this game. I mean an unreal amount. Numerous shops, training areas, etc. Seems to be a number of different mounts available from horses to flying skateboards to motorcycles to big farm tractors, etc. LOL! Multiple skills of course that can be mapped to the number keys. Between starting various quests as well as just randomly exploring and fighting I ground up to level 9. 1 more level and I can use the new sword I found! Also tried the equipment upgrade option a few times. lol It's insane really.. essentially this is like all of the stuff in a game like Diablo 3 or other AAA style action rpg games only maybe actually more here. And all done in a much more unique way.

    I looked at the credits file and they used a large number of art assets from OpenGameArt. Completely understandable. I simply clicked the ONLINE / OFFLINE status thingy in the lower left corner to be OFFLINE so was a single player experience for me. Although every so often other bot characters roamed around killing and sometimes saying a few words as they passed by. lol

    I need to ask to this person how long they spent on all of this. It had to be a long time I would think not only because of the massive scope but also because they credit some extensions for Gamemaker 8 so I am guessing this was made in that old Gamemaker 8. Not to mention it seems to have been made for lower screen resolutions. I ended up quickly flipping over to my desktop and lowering it down to 1366x768. Also discovered you can simply press z to zoom in. So it starts with camera way out. Press Z to zoom in. Press Z again to zoom way in and that is where I kept it for play. Press Z again to zoom way back out again.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  29. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    Perhaps some stuff is procedural generates for sprites and stats.
    It looks like a good game.

    Some indies have good creativity
    https://twitter.com/hashtag/PepperGrinderGame?src=hash

    Do you use mouse or pen tablet for 2D and 3D ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  30. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    I just talked to the developer on Twitter... they made it over a 2.5 year period in about 2,500 hours. But it builds on parts of previous (unreleased) games they made which accounts for another 500 hours or so worth of work. Said the game probably seems so unique because for the most part they did all of the development only for themselves never asking anyone for feedback or any input period and just doing what they wanted to do adding things they thought were missing from such games they played. Only recently did they let others see it and through all of that beta testing they used the feedback to make it all a much more polished smoother experience.

    Seems like a real nice person happy to talk about their game. Obviously is a true passion project for them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  31. GarBenjamin

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    Thanks for sharing this. I seem to remember trying out a version of Silo many years ago. There were a few that were popular for us hobbyist developers. Canvas3D & AC3D (I think they were called) were other popular ones. I will have to try out Silo again.

    I have been using Anim8or for the bulk of my 3D modeling for the past 18 years. Oh I got into Blender as well and have 3 books on it around here that I worked through over the years at one time or another. And I use it sometimes. But really to just get stuff done I have found nothing as simple & efficient to work with as Anim8or. But I am always open to trying out a different program. Never know if it will work better if a person doesn't test it out so will grab Silo and check it out maybe this next week. The main thing is I am always looking at just getting stuff done so all of the bells n whistles and stuff that someone working at Pixar would love is useless to me.
     
  32. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    Another nice looking game. I like the grappling hook especially when the developer did some tests to use it in other ways such as dealing with enemies.

    For a long time I wanted to get a tablet and try it out but I never got one. I might get a tablet one of these days.
     
  33. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    I can't do 3D or 3D without tablet, it is so much intuitive like using a pen, and faster movement than a mouse.
    You should find it's a game changer once you'll try it.
     
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  34. ThunderSoul

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    Wow, well, this thread definitely has not died out.

    It made such great progress in less than a month... Whew! :)
     
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  35. GarBenjamin

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    Yeah a few of us explored a lot of interesting stuff quite in depth at times. Other folks were probably spending a bit more time on actually developing games. :)
     
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  36. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    I will have to take a look at Amazon and see what I find. It does sound like it would be a little more fun of a way to work at least.

    Well all of that talk about 3D and ultra low poly and since I was taking a break on my actual game project I decided to knock out a super simple ship model and a small simple 3D world. Then programmed a camera system and basic arcade style keyboard flight controller... aka using arrow keys. Got a basic sky drop thingy in and that's about it. But I can envision enemies roaming around to destroy.

    It was a fun little experiment. Not going to work on it more now. But definitely am recharged to vet back to work on my 2D defense game tomorrow.

    Anyway here is what I knocked out... I think I might have that camera tilt backwards on turning but whatever... if so that's a matter of simply adding one negative sign... i focused mainly on just the important bits of camera being smart enough to adjust based on context of what is happening, etc... anyway I think a person could definitely use this kind of simpler approach to make something fun.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  37. deliquescator

    deliquescator

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    This looks like a single player take on Tibia :D Even the graphics and monsters shouting have a similar style. It does everything differently enough though. I really like what the dev is doing with it! I think the graphics are good enough for it to be quite a hit.
     
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  38. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    I don't remember Tibia having sounds? But that was like almost 15 years ago ;)
     
  39. deliquescator

    deliquescator

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    Well no, it didn't haha :p And this has many differences but I am just saying that it looks like it was inspired by that game ;)
     
  40. Antypodish

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    I just have seen too many games, they all look similar to me between each other.
    At least with some similarities.

    The most maybe resembling for me to Tibia, is left skills panel, which appears for a moment.
    But I doubt to be honest, it was inspired by Tibia. Hit me if I am wrong :p
     
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  41. GarBenjamin

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    The dev told me in the options menu all of the GUI can be scaled up as desired as well as opting for Full Screen mode. Tested that a bit ago and sure enough. Much better now. It's amazing how much they packed into this thing.

    Ah Tibia... I haven't played that in 12 years but used to play it a lot. Yeah I think this game certainly has the potential to be a big hit but I don't know if it will reach that potential because like the dev told me yesterday they don't know much at all about how to market the game. They have built up a small following on Twitter and they have a tiny fanbase for the game so far but being their first game release they didn't have any existing audience available.

    That happens a lot with great games I think and places the dev at the mercy of the big YouTubers and game review sites. I will do the tiny bit I can to help but my own reach is still microscopic as well. But who knows it just might take off. All it takes are the right people seeing it who can instantly introduce the game to a few hundred thousand people in the target audience.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  42. Antypodish

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    I think I was back days level 30 or even 40. Somehow I recall round level 25-27, I was stuck through several deaths in a row. At least was 5 from my memory. Very frustrating. But did coming back ;)
    Seams they still doing ok. Good game specially for lower end PC. I think back days was most popular for East Europe and Asia. Maybe Africa as well. hard to say.

    I do remember they meant to make some 3D version. They had some form of early game, or prototype. Recalling some screenshots. Not sure how that end up. Tibia Ultimate or something. Don't remember.

    Considering size of maps and number of servers, wasn't small game.

    But maybe indeed marketing was weak link? Or was enough for them?
     
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  43. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    Oh you hit on another big audience out there for the much simpler visuals that I meant to mention but never did... thanks for that. Yes another big benefit of going ultra simple is there are a lot of gamers (it doesn't matter if Steam shows them as a small % that % is just for Steam and still would be millions of gamers) playing games on older computers and laptops. And not casuals either.

    I have done all of my gaming and development on laptop for 15 years now. It just is a whole lot better sitting on couch than sitting at a desk which I do all day at my day job.

    Anyway not everyone out there is looking for the most tech demanding games for sure. I think sometimes devs forget there are literally millions of people who don't play the latest greatest AAA (and "big fancy demanding" high budget Indie) games simply because their computer can't run the game well enough. So if a person made a similar gameplay experience with much reduced requirements through simpler visuals that may be a good path to take as well. Serve the people who are not being served basically.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  44. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    That mostly true. I like sometimes look /play at simplicity. Is kind of relaxing.
    For example I did in past in minecraft. Screenshots maybe shows 50% whats visible on top. Every building palace and castle has interiors furnished.



    Or while ago abandon game Rawbots



    Or From The Depths


    All made of tiny blocks


    I think I am ok with pixel art :p
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
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  45. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    Good start.
     
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  46. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    Lol well there's nothing to it really. Spent at most 15 mins making a super simple model and a heightmap for the terrain. Then maybe another 30 mins at most on programming... a few lines of code to build the landscape geometry from the height map and the same image is used to texture the landscape, a few more lines to populate the landscape with random sized cubes at random positions. Copied and pasted in the code I wrote previously to do the horizon sky fx and fogging etc to blend into horizon, etc. Then just focused on programming to control the model and the camera & testing tweaking for flying around. No shooting, no collisions, no enemies, no collectibles.

    I agree though for what it is... it is a solid start. It prototyped the idea of making an off the rails ultra simple visuals 3D flying-based arcade game. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  47. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    Lot of people doesn't know how to do it lol
    It's a start, you'll have to polish controls making acceleration, Y axis slower and better camera, this is for the polishing.
    What matters will be game ideas you will have to make it unique.
     
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  48. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    Oh! I meant there was nothing to it as in there is nothing in it... no enemies, no collectibles, no collision checking & handling, no shooting, etc.

    Yeah for sure. Have some stationary enemies gun turrets tracking player, enemies roaming around on paths and one or two ai-based. And lots of stuff to blow up.... like make forests, crates, rocks, etc all over and everything can be destroyed. Make those buildings destructible as well (done in a "cheap" way of course). And give the player ship a barrel roll or loop or super speed attack or something. And have a good amount of stuff to collect from blowing up all that stuff.

    And yes polish I do in iterations more and more as the game progresses. Beginning none needed. Focus on adding stuff. Get a bunch in then I do a light round of polish. Slap some more stuff in over many dev sessions then do another round of polish. Eventually most of actual game is done so goes to mainly polish and bit of new dev. Etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
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  49. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    When i said there will be more procedural world generator tools and perhaps ai generator tool.
    It looks promising , it was started by Andrew Maximov, Technical Art Director at Naughty Dog.
    Such tools can help a lot indies.
    One is coming already
     
  50. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    The result looks boring as heck... if I want to see a realistic bedroom I can look in my own. Lol BUT I get what you mean the tech behind it is interesting if it understood the possibility space for populating a bedroom with objects and including their states. I wonder how much was needed in source assets... like did it have predefined assets for multiple beds and then various combinations of a bed being completely "unmade" all the way to being "made" or how does it actually work. They should make the next example of a wolfs den or cavern where a troll lives. That is something much more interesting imo.