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Comment on Unity tutorial contents

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Deleted User, May 18, 2020.

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  1. Deleted User

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    I wish to point out some issues I've found about the Unity tutorial website. Whilst programmers and moderators of this website may reply or comment, I honestly don't expect them to as they don't hold any responsibility towards the website. I hope moderators and experienced programmers can pass this message if any have the chance to do so.

    - i found a basic youtube tutorials which are easier to understand. Examples include 3D movement of cubes since the real world is in 3D. I feel these these examples are far more realistic than having to go through all the technical contents (concepts, principles etc.) and then trying to understand what is happening. Let's be honest, unless they happen to be very academic minded, the unity team probably wasted their time designing it despite whatever effort made.

    - These tutorials (meaning those not in unity forum) are complete and independent - meaning that you can write an app immediately. With reference to this, why bother checking the unity forum?

    - Those responsible for the unity tutorials made the very bad mistake of focusing too much time by explaining concepts and principles. Let's be honest again - why bother reading all the concepts and principles when my desktop / mobile app can work perfectly well?

    - For beginners, all the concepts and principles isn't very useful. Unless you are able to apply these concepts and principles, what you learn remains entirely academic, theory and not of much use. Beginners probably won't understand it well as there's too much to learn anyway.

    If the unity team reads this, I really hope you all can really try to improve the situation. For now, the youtube videos I can find are seriously much better. Whilst I'm not an expert, I am learning more things than the unity forum tutorials. That's the sad, terrible part.
     
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  2. DauntlessVerbosity

    DauntlessVerbosity

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    Your post is interesting because I have been into the Unity Learn tutorials lately and I have been wishing they were more focused on concepts and principles.

    I don't want to spit out a game as fast as possible. I want to understand how to make a game and why thing are done they way they are and how/why it all works. In the end I think I'll be far better at innovating if I truly understand what I'm doing. Therefore, I am looking for anything and everything that will get me there.

    I think you're shooting yourself in the foot in the long run by wanting results immediately without caring about how it all works and why it works.
     
  3. Vryken

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    Imagine you're making a stealth game and want to make all enemies on the map run to the player's position after they were detected.

    In some script somewhere, you add this bit of code to do so:
    Code (CSharp):
    1. void Update() {
    2.    Enemy[] allEnemies = FindObjectsOfType<Enemy>();
    3.  
    4.    foreach(Enemy enemy in allEnemies) {
    5.        enemy.MoveToPlayer(GameObject.Find("Player").transform.position);
    6.    }
    7. }
    Now if you just wanted to make this feature work, then you might stop right there, because it's done.
    However, if you understand the concepts and principles of Unity development, you will realize that this is a terribly inefficient script, and if you were to be writing similar code throughout the entire game, you'd run into performance problems constantly and probably wouldn't know why or how to fix them.
     
  4. Deleted User

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    I understand your point. All I'm saying is that I find too little examples in the unity learn forum. Bear in mind that not everyone understands things the same way. Perhaps my contents gave the bad impression that I think concepts and principles are useless. All I'm asking is for more examples or different examples. And I'm getting them from youtube. So I'm saying that the unity learn forum is not providing these examples.

    What @DauntlessVerbosity says is very wrong and quite stupid. If he did read my information carefully, I did not say I skipped the unity forum when I started learning. I only mentioned that they are for those who are very academic minded. You also can't expect everyone to understand things the same way.

    For the record, I'm still referring to the unity forum after I learn something to see if the unity forum explains things properly. And I don't fully understand everything there. Bear in mind that there are different ways of explaining things.
     
  5. DauntlessVerbosity

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    Glad to be of service.
     
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  6. Deleted User

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    @DauntlessVerbosity. I did not put this post to start a fight or argue with people like you. If you are an academic person, then good for you. Some people prefer examples. If you can, try to be more friendly by pointing out websites where perhaps better examples of the concepts and principles can be explained or shown. As I stated, I will go to the unity forum once I feel I understand what I'm doing.
     
  7. Murgilod

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    You called them stupid. Don't try and claim a high ground here.
     
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  8. Deleted User

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    ok. In that case, go to the youtube videos and tell them that their approach is wrong. I see lots of good reviews so I don't it's wrong for me to understand examples before understanding concepts, principles. What's your comment for this?
     
  9. BrainwavesToBinary

    BrainwavesToBinary

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    You said earlier to @DauntlessVerbosity :

    You telling someone they should be more friendly after you insulted them by referring to their comments as "quite stupid" is kind of hilarious. It is this apparent lack of self-awareness that I think @Murgilod is responding to in their post. And then you respond talking about YT videos as if that has anything to do with what or why they said what they said. Maybe you're having a bad day and are thus more likely to take innocuous things like @DauntlessVerbosity 's post as insulting to your intelligence - it happens. Maybe just try and hold off posting until your attitude is less gratuitously confrontational.
     
  10. Ryiah

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    Agreed, but with the caveat that your goal is to become a game developer. If your goal is to just make a game for giggles or to see if you will enjoy the process I don't see anything wrong with using a tutorial series that doesn't teach you anything in the process.
     
  11. JohnnyA

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    @ABCDE-123 here's an analogy:

    Person 1 learns the piano by going to youtube video for a song working through replicating the steps of the youtube teacher and learning the song. Once they get it, they can repeat the same process and learn another song and so on.

    Person 2 goes to lessons where you learn to read music, learn proper fingering technique, music theory, and so on.

    After three months Person 1 can play 4 or 5 really cool songs and is a hit at the party, woo! Person 2 can play some scales and doesn't really know any popular or impressive songs.

    After two years Person 1 can play 24 songs. Person 2 can put up a sheet of music and play any song.

    ----

    The learn site isn't great, but not for the reasons you suggest.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
  12. Deleted User

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    ok I understand your point. So do I send feedback asking for more examples? Would this be a good idea? Perhaps those using the youtube videos would also benefit? Let me know.
     
  13. Owen-Reynolds

    Owen-Reynolds

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    The issue is that writing scripts has a high learning curve. Compare to art: if you want to draw a muscular troll but aren't good enough, people will figure out what it's suppose to be. They may think it's quirky. But if you want to make a combo system and aren't a good enough scripter, you don't have a quirky combo system --- you've got a non-working bunch of bugs.

    As a result, scripting lessons come in 5 flavors: !) learn it for real. That takes months, 2) learn how to paste a script and use the Inspector. This gives the most immediate satisfaction for beginners making a very simple game, 3) follow steps to create a script. That's is just a longer version of item 2, but some people really enjoy the paint-by-numbers feeling, 4) learn scripting, but only the easiest parts. This lets you use pre-made scripts, and _maybe_ change them to do something new. The problems with that are you won't know if something is easy enough to do until you try it; and if you decide you want to learn scripting for real you'll have to start over. Finally, 5) the author got confused and wrote a mix of 1-4. That's probably the most common.
     
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  14. Deleted User

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    You say the unity forum is not great. Can you help on this? If no reply, I consider this thread done.
     
  15. Ryiah

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    He meant the learning subsection linked below.

    https://unity.com/learn
     
  16. Deleted User

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    I already know about this. In that case I don't think this thread is of any further help. Since anything else is outside this website, I should be able find it.
     
  17. Deleted User

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    I look forward when you have a bad day. Then you'll know how it feels when someone insults you.
     
  18. Ryiah

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    Agreed. If you can't understand the posts people make there's no point continuing with a discussion.
     
  19. Vryken

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    How one can say this after insulting someone else beforehand is beyond me.
     
  20. Deleted User

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    I didn't say my understanding is at 0. It's anywhere below 50. It depends on the articles I read.
     
  21. Deleted User

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    I'm genuinely trying to get useful information and he starts by judging me. Would you like it if someone does that without offering useful information? Don't just talk back. If you were in this thread, I doubt you would feel respected or happy with that kind of reply. Now let's see if this thread continues with more nonsense and insulting remarks or not.
     
  22. Ryiah

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    And again you completely misunderstood my post.
     
  23. Deleted User

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    Am I too stupid to understand to understand you? What did I miss out? (I'm not being sarcastic or trying to irritate you.) Is it the post i don't understand? Please clarify.
     
  24. Ryiah

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    That's just it. I have been clarifying. Like I mentioned earlier one person mentioned the learn section and you thought he was referring to the forums, and then most recently I mentioned that there wasn't a point to a thread if the person who starts it can't understand any of the posts and you interpreted that as understanding tutorials and not the posts.
     
  25. Deleted User

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    I just checked this thread and there's no link. So if you can't help, just leave this thread alone. Since I didn't make any negative remarks about you, you can leave in peace without any hard feelings. I've gone to the unity team before. They have explained things to me in the past in a proper & respectful way. I might not be as academic as DauntlessVerbosity and they definitely won't judge me the way Murgilod did. Ok? that's my point. So from here I take it that none in this thread can help explain the concepts & principles. I'll check with others who I think can give better, more respectful comments and see if they can help.

    To be frank, I did not enjoy this thread at all. Instead of having a proper useful discussion, all sorts of nonsensical rubbish is found. I have gained absolutely nothing from here. Anyone with common sense can tell that if you are really academic, you can check the manuals yourself without bothering with this thread. You don't need to start this thread to know that.
     
  26. Vryken

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    You mean like the kind of respect you've given DauntlessVerbosity with this non-judgmental response?
    All I'm saying is, don't dish it out if you can't take it yourself.

    You've gained nothing from this thread because your first response was an unprovoked insult to another user. You cannot demand respect from others while not giving it yourself.
     
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  27. Ryiah

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    It's not that no one can explain the concepts and principles. It's more a combination of the effort that will be involved since you appear to be misunderstanding just about everything everyone has said, and the fact that you are very clearly biased in ways that everyone else has said are the wrong ways.

    We're volunteers. Who we teach is largely going to depend on how they respond. If a person is responding in a negative way they will be far less likely to receive assistance than someone who is responding in a positive way. If you're not receiving assistance it's generally because you've chased away everyone that could have assisted you.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  28. Deleted User

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    Yes Ryiah, I got you loud and clear. I'm not biased. I did not ask anyone to teach me.

    Look at my original post : I am asking the Unity team to change their contents. I am not asking you orr anyone else. None of the contents in my post ask if anyone can teach me. I'm asking the team to improve the contents. Why should I ask you all when there's a unity forum? I was hoping someone can help send feedback to the unity team. That's what I mean. Then I don't have to bother you. Or Murgilod. Or irritate Vryken. None of us need to waste time reading all this rubbish. We can all happily program, write apps, and share in Unity answer once we are better. Now if there's a way to send feedback to them, let me know. If not, I will use the built-in unity facility on my computer. Thanks for your time and don't get irritated.
     
  29. Deleted User

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    He started by tellin
    ok. so can you help send the team any feedback? Read my original post?
     
  30. neginfinity

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    "Q: What do you feel when killing your target?
    A: Recoil."
    Insults are so common on the internet, so in time people develop great deal of tolerance of them.

    However, using insults is a great way to discourage people from helping you, as communicaetion is two-way street.


    Youtube videos is not an authority when it comes to picking the best approach. Their point is often explain the concept is basics. Also they have low information density and waste ton of time frequently.
    Basically, video tutorials are usually aimed at beginner, and it is not uncommon for them to use poor practice while illustrating something else.
    Non-beginner would need to utilize Script Reference and Manual instead.

    Standard approach when dealing with any problem is to find solution yourself. While communities exist, they do not help all the time, and the more complex the problem is, the less likely you're to receive an assistance.
     
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  31. Deleted User

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    I was not literally going to actually insult him. At most if someone were to reply in a nasty way, I would just have asked him how he felt. I would have reminded him that that was how lousy I felt when he did the same. If you were to be on the neutral side, which I hope you can try, someone actually started it by telling me i'm shooting myself in the foot. How would you feel if i started by saying that to you? It's no point for me to go back and tell all those previously who replied. You can see they actually supported that fellow. Unbelievable isn't it? I come neutral, a person shoots insult, i shoot back and I got no support. The person who shot me has been supported and cheered. Perhaps they see me as someone searching for infomation so i'm the one supposed to be humble and accept criticism. Whatever it is the damage is done. In yet another unrelated post, i'm able to get along well with the person and I actually feel happy with the information given. From what i see, it's all an attitude of being charitable. I can see that people like Murgilod and DauntlessVerbosity is not charitable at all. But they just cannot see that opinion. If this forum has a way of preventing certain ppl from replying, you can bet i prefer if they don't help at all.

    I know youtube is not the final authority. I can always give feedback to the team which i already have to ask for more information. Can you suggest anything better apart from what i can do for myself?? In the meantime, the manuals are still what I'll refer to when I need information.
     
  32. Vryken

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    This whole thread is one big misunderstanding then, and I'm guessing this is a difference in culture that caused it.
    "Shooting yourself in the foot" is not an insult, it's an idiom, meaning "Making a situation worse for yourself".
    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/shoot-yourself-in-the-foot

    They didn't mean you should literally go shoot yourself in the foot, if that's what you thought.
    What they meant was that you would be worse off in the long run by only learning what gets you quick results, without knowing how or why they work.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  33. neginfinity

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    Like @Vryken said, "shooting yourself in the foot" is english idiom. "To shoot yourself in the foot" means "to make things harder for yourself".

    "You're shooting yourself in the foot" is a normal warning given when things are related to programming and technical fields and you're just learning something for th first time.

    When encountering "you're shooting yourself in the foot" response to a programming question, the usual idea is to ask the person to explain themselves, so you understand what they mean. If they know what they're talking about, they'll usually be able to produce quick explanation, at which point you heed their advice and research alternative approach they mentioned.

    This is business as usual on technical topics.

    "How would you feel" is wrong kind of reaction. I wouldn't feel a thing, I would investigate whether the person knows more than I do, and if they know their stuff, I'd thank them for the advice given, because early warnings can save months of wasted time.
     
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  34. Owen-Reynolds

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    "Shooting yourself in the the foot" is a bit rude. You're calling that person an idiot. Plus it involves a gun. It's not as rude as something like "pull your head out", but it's not polite society. And the phrase in DV's post was "I think you're shooting yourself in the foot in the long run". That's an awkward mixed metaphor.

    SYitF doesn't even work there. It doesn't mean to do things the hard way, it means what it says: something accidentally and extremely stupid, like shooting yourself with your own gun. It's barely an idiom.
     
  35. Ryiah

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    I don't agree. It's completely dependent on the context and the definition used. Google's definition of "shoot yourself in the foot" is just "inadvertently make a situation worse for oneself". Inadvertently means accidentally.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=shoot+yourself+in+the+foot

    On the other hand Longman's dictionary says it's "to say or do something stupid that will cause you a lot of trouble".

    https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/shoot-yourself-in-the-foot

    Right there we have two definitions. One is saying that you might be accidentally making things worse for yourself while the other is saying that you're stupidly causing yourself trouble. Which one is it? Based on the context of the post, and when it was created, I'd have to say that it was intended to be a warning and not an insult.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  36. ippdev

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    The US Marines have a saying "check your nut sack". Squirrels don't have cloth bags and are rather confused in that they don't even speak english. Now let's all sing a round of 'Old McDonald Had a Farm' for unity sake.

    'Nuff sed - The Immortal Stan Lee.
     
  37. neginfinity

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    It really isn't. I've never seen it being perceived as an insult.

    Additionally, in my opinion, in technical field the default etiquette is to get to the point without wasting time. Being pointlessly rude is not an appropraite behavior, but neither is trying to dance around every word so nobody would possibly be offended.
     
  38. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    some people, especially if english isn't first language, will understand concepts and principals better by seeing rather than by listening to words.
     
  39. Lurking-Ninja

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    I think this is true for a short period of time during learning the language. Luckily on the forums, it is not a problem though, we always see the words, not listening to them (unless reading software involved). :p
    Disclaimer: English is my second language.
     
  40. Deleted User

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    @Vryken. It's got nothing to do with culture. Look at the thread at the top. People like Murgilod and DauntlessVerbosity started this rubbish by not responding in a nice & friendly way. They could have changed this thread by asking me what / why I don't understand. They clearly did not. And none can see this simple logic. Ryiah, don't laugh, you also supported this & put a like there. Perhaps my mistake is expecting everyone to be nice & friendly when people like Murgilod and DauntlessVerbosity were clearly nasty, unfriendly people. To make things worse, Murgilod next tried to teach me moral values, telling me i'm wrong and not to claim innocence. WTF ! They clearly were trying to judge, not to help. A person who wants to help starts by offering useful information or asking what I don't understand. DauntlessVerbosity started by giving unnecessary comments. So my lesson for this case and future cases is simple : I should not to expect everyone to be nice.

    In closure, you can check my next thread where we can have a more useful discussion. Stop wasting time on this. Murgilod and DauntlessVerbosity will never agree with you. To them I'm just a fool who insulted them.
     
  41. Murgilod

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    DauntlessVerbosity was polite and well reasoned and you called their post stupid. Again:
     
  42. Ryiah

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    Go back and read the post by @DauntlessVerbosity. Everything in it was both nice and friendly. Your immediate response to him was to trash talk his opinion.

    Because I agreed with both @DauntlessVerbosity's opinion and the polite way that he presented it.

    After reading all of your posts yet again I've come to the conclusion that you didn't come here to be helped. If an individual wanted to be helped they would have started off explaining what they were having trouble with but you started off with a passive aggressive post.

    Every bulletpoint was you implying that the approach taken to the problem was either way off or just outright wrong. When @DauntlessVerbosity politely disagreed you lashed out in an aggressive way because again you never wanted to be helped.

    You never wanted a discussion. Your negative statement against the forums makes it clear that you see no value in taking part in it. You just wanted people to agree with everything you said as if it were a fact rather than just an opinion.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  43. Deleted User

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    I'm sending some feedback to the unity team to improve the manuals so I can refer to it. What you say doesn't change the fact that I find very little or too technical information in the manuals. Perhaps it's better for me to just check with them and wait for the updated manuals. I apologize for my strange behaviour.
     
  44. Owen-Reynolds

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    Then either say "counterproductive", or be direct. If you think X will waste 2 months, say that. "We're shooting ourselves in the foot" is vague, wordy, and slightly aggressive.

    That points up my real problem: why did DV invent some sort of weird long-term bullet, but skip this gem from the OP: "Examples include 3D movement of cubes since the real world is in 3D"? What sort of reason is "the real world"? Do they know Unity is a game engine, and people want examples of things in games? What are the concepts and principles?
     
  45. Lurking-Ninja

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    You're in the General Forum, this is not the place to send feedback, especially not on the teaching materials. You can do that here or here.
    You started your thread with a giant problem, you came to a forum where people either enthusiastic amateur (at least who posts frequently) or professional. And you opened the discussion with "I don't care about the craft, whatever, gimme' some explicit red button to make a game". This is a giant red flag in the front of a herd of bulls here. And you didn't just waived it, but you're wearing it as a cape and then you wonder why the people of the forum disagree with you.

    And this.
    On the rest: You find very little technical information in the manual? WTF? What do you find in there then? What do you expect as "technical information"? Because the manual is full of technical information. It is the main purpose of the manual, to look up the technical information in there. And somehow hundreds of thousands (or maybe even millions) of users find the technical information in there.
    Update: I re-read your post and maybe I misread it(?) and you're actually complaining the too technical nature of the manual? That's even worse because of the nature of the manual.

    I think you're not too late. Just read your posts again, and think about how you approached this situation and maybe if you feel like it post a retraction or something.
    And no, BTW, you're wrong when you say you don't need the concepts and principles. You can start by copying some tutorial and you can write an app, but it will be crap. I tell you in advance. I have 99.999% chance to be right. If you don't know what you're doing you have a very little chance to hit the bullseye.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  46. neginfinity

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    This thread should be locked up.

    The original poster can try again with another thread.

    It is not. It is exact wording I'd pick in many situations.

    Alternatives to "you're shooting yourself in the foot":
    "You're wasting your time" --> Rude
    "It will backfire in the long term" --> Arrogant and much more aggressive.
    "counterproductive" --> Does not have the same meaning.
    "By applying this practice, you increase likelyhood of running into a problem in 6 month from now, assuming that you will follow a specific path that may or may not actually apply to your situation, but .... (blahblahblah)" --> Overly verbose, doesn't get to the point, and wastes MY time. Lengthy response has to be needed.

    Basically, I don't see a problem with this phrase.

    I believe I have sufficient fluency in english, and in situation where I was not trying to act in hostile way, but somebody takes offense at a phrase that is normally perceived as neutral, the fault is not mine. Can't please everybody.
     
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  47. ippdev

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    One way or another you need to get used to the terminology used just like any specialty field of the sciences, engineering or mathematics. Game engine programming just happens to be at the crossroads of all three of those as well as a good deal of creative problem solving. Everybody on these forums has had to do the same thing in regards to learning how, why and where to use the tools provided and the concepts behind them. When you have stumbled and fumbled and made every mistake you can make in the field you can consider yourself an expert. Until then you are not and will not be. You were wise to check yourself. Consider it your first tutorial in dealing with the gaming dev community. It is a tough discipline for the tough minded who don't mind the hard work involved.
     
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  48. Deleted User

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    I'm sorry for the way I hurt you. Believe me, it was not deliberately done. It's probably too late now. You might not even be following this thread anymore but I'm ok with that. I'm actually learning by playing around with my app. I'm changing the variable names to see how they work. If i were to be in your office, i'm actually a nice person who can help others once i know how things work. What you see here is not my actual character. Perhaps my expectations was too high, expecting people to be friendly first. But that's not what I got. I also apologise to all others who got hurt , especially Murgilod. But like i said, it was not deliberate. Now i leave it to you all to decide. If you refuse to believe, then leave me alone. There's nothing further for me to add. I don't expect any further help from you all, at least not in this post. I don't expect any help in other posts too. Let other ppl do it and try. And if they really don't want to help or cannot help, I'll play around with it myself.

    @Ryiah, maybe you're right. Maybe I don't belong here. You too can refuse to help further. I seriously don't expect any from you.

    For the record, I've sent a help request to the unity team, asking them to update their manuals. After that, I don't expect to be in this forum anymore. Whether you remember me for good or bad is no longer relevant.
     
  49. Deleted User

    Deleted User

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    This is the only person who understand me. I understand better when i see examples. Too bad he's the only one who sees this.
     
  50. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2017
    Posts:
    3,639
    other people understand just making debate cause thye're bored. i think that's most of what internet forums are. hard to keep a discussion going unless you provoke people.
     
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