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[Coming Soon] SpectraGI Advanced Real Time Global Illumination For Unity from Livenda

Discussion in 'Works In Progress - Archive' started by LIVENDA, May 22, 2014.

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  1. HappyCoder84

    HappyCoder84

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    I haven`t tried your solution. It looks good:)
    And yes, sometimes approximated light-weight GI goes a long way and delivers enough visual fidelity.
    But, there is a reason companies like Epic and Crytek are trying to implement this.
    There will always be issues regarding performance and some other stuff.

    But, in some cases, accurate GI makes a huge difference especially for realistic looking games.
     
  2. FogGobbler

    FogGobbler

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    I know that we shouldn´t post things about other engines, but since there is nothing else to talk about at the moment....

    @ happpycoder: wow. I mean.. wow. That VXGI looks great and if they really get it working in UE4 in the next couple of months that would just be awesome :) .
     
  3. HappyCoder84

    HappyCoder84

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    Due to the nature of voxelization techs, like you said, it won`t work well for small(really small) objects.
    But like any other tech, I think some of those issues will be ironed out.
    Only time will tell.
     
  4. HappyCoder84

    HappyCoder84

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    Excatly,, there is nothing else to talk about..about Spectra Gi at the moment.
    Livenda,, show us what you`ve got up your sleeves.
     
  5. nasos_333

    nasos_333

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    Indeed, it is just an approximation with its own issues, but is the only solution i can see using in my game for sure right now.

    Enlighten with baking would be a pain to use (in short, probably i would avoid it as much as possible) and Spectra in real time would probably cut back on my fps in heavy scenes a lot, thus i would use it in very few places too.

    Plus i dont have Pro yet, so these solutions would be not available to me until i finally get it.

    I only started it as an experiement, but works so well in my game that i am starting to believe this is the solution to use until next gen arrives and has the extra power to allow anything else and ease of use. I will try to use both the others though, but i have not baked anything so far and even the though makes me feel limited.

    Sadly i avoid DX11 too, otherwise the GI Proxy system gives some amazing results wiht Jove and more lights.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
  6. nasos_333

    nasos_333

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    Is there any paper on how they handle skinned animation ? I think this would be the hardest

    Also the size depends on the scene size, in a huge open space voxels would have to be bigger i guess so their number is not excesive, making it very hard to use with characters or small objects, unless they have some cool adaptive scheme and lots of pre-processing in regions or something.

    The thing is that the video does not show motion, which is a red flag already. And seeing that rabit voxelized seems like a tech that simply wont work in a game, how do you go about voxelizing a dynamic scene with instantiate objects of various sizes ? One way would be to pre-process everything and somehow handle animation with expensive real time techniques or huge pre-processing.

    Having the tech is not even close to actually using it in a game imo
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
  7. HappyCoder84

    HappyCoder84

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    Have you read this? :)
    http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/marketwire/1145759.htm
    Like I said, Cryengine dumped Enlighten because it was static solution with baking, UE too, up to date, has used their lightmass. UE, for example, has been very reluctant to incorporate any GI method lest it should ruin smooth gaming experience.
    When big companies make their move,, I think there is a good reason.
     
  8. nasos_333

    nasos_333

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    Indeed, i only recently realized UE4 did not offer a GI solution :), i thought a next gen engine would have some form, but i was wrong.

    That is why i will start coding the GI Proxy for UE after i am finished with the Unity version, seems like many will find a use for it.
     
  9. HappyCoder84

    HappyCoder84

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    I`m not trying to make you feel bad or anything like that. Your solution is a good replacement for GI. :)
    I`m just saying that devs over at Nvidia or Epic games are not dumb enough to develop something that can`t be used for games. It`s not going to be perfect. we will find out later this year.:)
     
  10. Mauri

    Mauri

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    Not to rain the parade, but a very few postings ago Livenda kindly asked to refrain from posting or discussing about other GI tech not related to SpectraGI.
     
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  11. HappyCoder84

    HappyCoder84

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    Sorry, I guess I was a little too excited.
    But if there`s some kind of video, this thread will be full of postings discussing spectra GI.
     
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  12. nasos_333

    nasos_333

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    Indeed, or at least a hint of what this GI is about anyway or performance etc, something to discuss while waiting the promised weeks back videos.

    The thing is many people are here to see the performance of the amazing system and see how, where and when they can apply it in their games.

    If there is not a single hint about the system, then it should be moved to work in progress section and we can then stop waiting for the "soon" part or make any immediate plans to use the system in our games.

    I trully love Livenda work and i think in the end will deliver something amazing, but please dont make us hold our breath :).

    BTW, one question, is there going to be a group buy option at the start or any plans for something like that later, like with the SSRR system ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
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  13. braaad

    braaad

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    Livenda should be happy people are bumping their thread when they post nothing. Maybe next time they should consider putting their teaser threads in the coming "soon" section.
     
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  14. Mauri

    Mauri

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    I think, it's safe to say that it wouldn't matter if the thread would've been posted in the Work in Progress section of the forum as such discussions would be made anyway... There is a thread about Unity's Enlighten here. Why not posting there instead, mumbling about Crytek/Epic's GI tech? Don't get me wrong: Bumping a thread is totally fine, but not with Offtopic and non-related stuff.
     
  15. nasos_333

    nasos_333

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    This is the thread that promises a GI solution coming soon, which is something i can use in my game in the near future. That is the whole appeal.

    It is safe to say that if this was in the right section, it would not get as many irrelevant posts as it does now.

    When something is in the assets page, it should be an asset released or ready to be released, that is the whole idea of having a work in progress forum i guess.
    .
     
  16. bac9-flcl

    bac9-flcl

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    Exactly.

    I think at this point it would be reasonable for mods to just temporarily close the thread until the developers will have something to showcase. You can't keep the discussion on topic when a material for discussion was not ever presented in the first place.
     
  17. IanStanbridge

    IanStanbridge

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    Personally I think this thread should be closed by Livenda and a new thread created here when you actually have something to show. You should create a thread in the work in progress and record a video of how far you have progressed with the GI system. It doesn't need to be fancy just a scene with a couple of moving objects and the camera panning round it to demonstrate the state of the GI system.

    If at this stage it still isn't in a state to be able to show in a moving demo I would be inclined to focus on your other assets instead. Clearly it's taking you a lot longer than you envisaged so you must have run into problems. If you haven't been able to address those problems in the several months you have been constantly saying coming soon it is unlikely you will be able to. If it's just a case that most of it is complete but you are still trying to tweak it to reduce noise from the path tracing then at least show a video of it with this noise to prove it exists. I've used your candela asset and it works well so I will give you the benefit of the doubt over the work on this.

    My main concern for you would be that others who haven't used your assets will just assume this is fake and be less likely to risk purchasing your candela asset as a result.
     
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  18. LIVENDA

    LIVENDA

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    Hi Everyone,

    Here is the second video in a series to introduce some of the features of our upcoming SpectraGI System.

    Next Generation Dynamic Area Lights with Kawase Filmic Bloom included with SpectraGI for Unity. Video 2 demonstrating many physically correct Area Lights & Textured Projection using HDR luminance maps.



    SpectraGI Area Lights are available with almost no impact on performance. The GARAGE scene is entirely lit by the Area Lights alone and NO Dynamic GI has been used for the scene as this video is a small presentation of the Area Lights included with the SpectraGI system.

    The Area Lights are completely integrated with the dynamic GI pipeline and are able to cast multi bounce diffuse & specular irradiance.

    This video only demonstrating SpectraGI Area Lights without Dynamic Global Illumination.

    We know everyone is anxious and a little sceptical :) The next video will be the first introduction to SpectraGI collaborating all the technologies included.

    Cheers!
    Livenda Labs
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
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  19. nasos_333

    nasos_333

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    Incredible result with the area lights, the little impact in performance is also amazing.
     
  20. shkar-noori

    shkar-noori

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    can we have Kawase Filmic Bloom as a separate package, I really like the filmic look of it. maybe we can use the blooms before SpectraGI comes out?
     
  21. gurayg

    gurayg

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    Hello Livenda team,

    There is a very noticeable reflection on column (you can see it at the attached image)

    sgi_reflection.jpg

    That reflection's source should be off-camera frustum. Is that the result of "Textured Projection using HDR luminance maps" or the "off-screen reflections" feature that you mentioned on the Candela Thread or are those two the same thing?

    And I also noticed some lens dirt effect(also can be seen attached) Is this going to be part of SGI?

    sgi_ss_lens_dirt.jpg


    I couldn't notice area light shadows in the video.Did I miss something?

    Hope you get this done in no time with no problems.
    Thanks,
     
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  22. cg_destro

    cg_destro

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    I also didn't notice any shadows :/ is it working with area lights? I would like see one area light with neutral grey floor and one grey sphere without all that blooms, glows, sparks and everything that are to distracting and hides that what is actually most interesting - how well that area lights actually works on it's own without all other effects on top of them.
     
  23. bac9-flcl

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    Yeah, I don't see the point of drowning out the showcase with completely unnecessary postprocessing. Shadows can be demonstrated clearly using just a cube, for god's sake. It's not supposed to be a showcase for lens dirt or flare assets.
     
  24. Haagndaaz

    Haagndaaz

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    although the other effects are somewhat distracting, if you look under the cars you can see shadows
     
  25. Licarell

    Licarell

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    Yeah a first blush I thought wow! But something didn't feel right... there are no shadows under the cars in the back... and if you notice seemingly edge shadows under the front cars and tires but the main body of it the shadows seem to disappear underneath... I agree with the others... a lot of glitz but really just show a rotating cube with one area light so we can see the shadow following the shape of the cube...

    EDIT: With further review its a bias issue with the shadows under the cars... the shadows are there but they don't reach the car geometry...

    BTW I really liked that particular REVOSTOCK template too...;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
  26. FogGobbler

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    Thanks, livenda for the latest video. Looks nice, but i'd really care for less slick looking videos and effects and more focus on the technical side, for examples the area light shadows and how they look like. Just my opinion.
     
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  27. Stormbreaker

    Stormbreaker

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    Looks good!
     
  28. Thiago-Crawford

    Thiago-Crawford

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    Nice video, thanks for posting Livenda, looking forward to the big GI reveal :D

    Now I hope you don't mind me asking, but do you have a time frame for the GI video to come out? I don't mind if the answer is "no" or "don't know yet" if that is what it is.:)
     
  29. HappyCoder84

    HappyCoder84

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    thx for the hard work. But with all due respect, i would appreciate if you only focused on what we are interested.
    all those post processing effects aren't necessary .
     
  30. FogGobbler

    FogGobbler

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    I´ve got a very daft question about something I saw in the video. These strange brighter rectangular patches on the floor.. they are not meant to be light-reflections?! They look like they are painted onto the floor :-/ . It just looks like a giant light-cookie-texture .. not very realistic.
    Oh, dear. I´m nagging again.. ;-)
     
  31. HappyCoder84

    HappyCoder84

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    Omg,, you are right,, that's a light cookie texture from the lights on the ceiling,,:(
    I thought they were just part of the floor texture.
    No offense, but they look like white rectangular patches painted onto the parking lot floor.
     
  32. HappyCoder84

    HappyCoder84

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    With that many light sources brightening up the space, the shadows(ceiling lights) are supposed to look smooth.
    That's why i didn't notice it wasn't part of the floor texture.
     
  33. LIVENDA

    LIVENDA

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    Hi Everyone,

    To clarify a few points made, there are no Area Light shadows in this video, we should have a video demonstrating this in a few days as it is still a WIP. We were going to add them in this video and decided against it as there are still some issues we like to improve. Also please note the shadows are NOT ' physically accurate ' this is prohibitive without a major performance impact whilst being compatible with all platforms. So, don't expect sharp shadows on contact which progressively widen on distance from the caster. Nevertheless the shadows will be of reasonable quality if you wish to use them. It is also important to understand we are providing this as a useful addition to SpectraGI and has not much to do with what the core product is about. The Area Lights however are very important.

    The video uses a 'single' filmic post effect which will be included with SpectraGI (possibly not in the initial release, possibly.. ) however we really like to include it in the first release if we can as it is a great addition for dynamic GI.

    We are now full steam ahead completing SpectraGI

    Cheers,
    Livenda


    As mentioned above this post effect will be included with SpectraGI only at this stage (possibly not in the initial release, possibly.. )

    That reflection is not part of Candela SSRR, they are the specular reflections being cast by the Area Lights which have textures on them for the 'neon' sign which work with off-camera frustrum. The lens dirt effect is part of the single post effect mentioned above which will become part of SpectraGI. Our upcoming project Total Reflections is a new separate product.


    That is not a light cookie, no light cookies are used, that is the projection from the Area Lights on the ceiling

    No, there is No GI in the scene and the ambient light in the render settings is black.
     
  34. HappyCoder84

    HappyCoder84

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    Thx for responding so quickly. :)
    So far, you haven`t mentioned anything about trade-off.
    Could you be a bit specific about the possible trade-off ?
     
  35. Stormbreaker

    Stormbreaker

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    The post effect is a nice freebie, thanks Livenda!
     
  36. Vagabond_

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    In general EVERYBODY wants Global Illumination and the reasons for that are clear :). The area ligths will be very great addition to SpectraGI for real. The overall look of the scene even with using only reflections and area lights without shadows is really really great in my opinion... Just apply some cine style color correction and watch :D - that saturated colors don't provide a sense of realism...

    One question LIVENDA... does SSPT or some of the other GI methods provide naturally calculated AO ... if so that will be REALLY GREAT :) ?????
     
  37. HappyCoder84

    HappyCoder84

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    GI is like the holy grail of the computer graphics.
    Even something like VXGI, which is still considered heavy for a game with a large number of polygons, is enough
    to get people excited.
    If they somehow pull this off, they`ill be doing Unity a huge favor.
    Really huge,,:)
     
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  38. LIVENDA

    LIVENDA

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    Thanks for your great comments, and a good question! If you wish to also use SSPT on top of the core GI solution, you get great looking AO almost for free. We are also looking at providing the option to utilize just the AO on top of the core GI from the SSPT system by eliminating (lack of a better word) redundant calculations required for SS color/ illumination transport.

    A Plea to Unity from Livenda, Please provide a better, much better! (TXAA) Anti-Aliasing method ASAP. Seriously, we would do this if we had the time however it is the single most important missing link for true next gen quality and is sorely missing and unfairly impacting the overall quality of almost everything by reducing the significance of the new improvements to Unity in the near future with Unity 5, our products and great assets by other developers. Unity if you are reading this please consider this, ASAP, no kidding. Looking at Unreal 4, it is the first and one of the most obvious reasons for the discrepancies between the two engines.
     
  39. Mauri

    Mauri

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    +1
    TXAA looks indeed better than the current AA techniques in Unity. Please UT, do this.

    PS: I've wrote you (again) a PM ^^
     
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  40. nasos_333

    nasos_333

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    Is there any asset doing TXAA btw ?
     
  41. Stormbreaker

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    The current post processing AA effects suck, I started a thread on it a while back and UT's response was that there were no changes in 5.0 but might be something they look at in the future.
     
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  42. Mauri

    Mauri

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  43. shkar-noori

    shkar-noori

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    100++ for TXAA. or any better Anti-Aliasing method than the current ones.
     
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  44. nasos_333

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  45. LIVENDA

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    Yes, this has been available for a while now, though it is an improvement over the default fxaa implementations however the solution will have to be 'Temporal' based either super-sampled or other technique (Temporal SMAA is a possibility). There is a very slight (almost imperceptible) blur with TXAA in UE4 (they are using nvidia txaa method, which also takes into consideration MSAA during sampling, this could be a big problem for Unity) however the advantages FAR outweigh this. This has impact on pretty much everything, from specular shimmer, bloom shimmer, substance parametric texture aliasing and more, much more.

    So Unity, if you are listening, Drop everything and fix the AA :) before doing anything else, no joke.
     
  46. shkar-noori

    shkar-noori

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    @Aras any ideas on AA?
     
  47. StaffanEk

    StaffanEk

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  48. janpec

    janpec

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    Awesome AO is defenetly very much needed as Unitys SSAO is broken when joined with certain post effects.
     
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  49. kindredgamer

    kindredgamer

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    ....And suddenly, silence fell upon the small town of livenda.
     
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  50. HappyCoder84

    HappyCoder84

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    where everyone had been guaranteed a magic wand to enlighten what was once dark.
    Sorry for rambling.
     
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