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College or self taught

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by CydoEntis, Nov 6, 2017.

  1. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    One thing I don't understand is what the heck is going on that college costs so darn much. Here in Aus it's 10% to 20% of that (without even converting currency), and I have the impression that our universities are still highly profitable.

    Our students tend not to live on campus, so maybe that's a factor, but surely that's not 80%+ of the cost.

    Is it just a shortage of college/uni placements that pushes the price up?

    @N1warhead, have you considered things like Open Universities? I agree with you that you can learn a lot online, but I've seen and experienced the minefield of terrible information out there. I could not, with confidence, tell someone who's starting out that they'll learn as much online as they would by going to a reputable educational institution. It's not for a lack of information, it's because someone starting out can't tell the gold from the trash.
     
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  2. TenKHoursDev

    TenKHoursDev

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    No, I definitely understand. I think you could do to go out of state. There are always options, I believe. You could go to a 2 year school as a precursor to transferring to a bigger school. Saves money, time, and kills two birds with one stone.

    Let me mention something... beware of constraining/self-limiting thoughts.

    From anxiety, to fear, to your choices to your refusal to do the necessary things. It really sticks out to me lately.

    I've worked at some things for a number of years. They're in-progress more or less... Part of it is due to my fickle-nature the other part just straight up refusing to do some things. I'd rather stay inside on a Friday and work on a project than go to a bar or some social event to meet people.

    The other part of that thought is the mind is a powerful thing... if you can convince yourself in every instance not to do something you can absolutely convince yourself of the opposite... its all about choices.

    There's no power-steering option for life... ya gotta control this boat with every bit of strength you've got yourself.

    The last thing? People suck. People most definitely suck. I'd never known so many asshats until college...
     
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  3. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    "Anyone can get a loan" is terrible advice because now you have to deal with a loan that most people will likely never end up being able to pay off in their lifetime.
     
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  4. Ryiah

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    Just be aware that college credits tend to be higher if you reside in a state other than the one the college is in. One of my local community colleges is $155 per credit for people living in Virginia, but if you aren't a resident of the state then you have to pay $332. Some have even worse differences (eg Arizona's PVCC is $85 county resident and $400 out of country).

    That said qualifying as a resident of the state only takes twelve consecutive months of legally living in the state. If you intend to go the route of a community college outside of state I highly recommend spending twelve months living in the state the college is in before you start attending.

    https://www.pvcc.edu/pay-for-pvcc/tuition-fees
    https://www.paradisevalley.edu/students/tuition-and-fees

    The Computer Science curriculum, for example, is a minimum of 63 credits. At $332 that's just over $20,000 but at only $155 per credit that's just under $10,000, and the savings would be even higher if you decided to take more classes (eg getting a networking cert alongside the comp sci as they share at least one class).

    https://www.pvcc.edu/sites/www.pvcc.edu/files/as_computer_science-2018-2019.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019 at 5:12 AM
  5. N1warhead

    N1warhead

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    A big issue I do have with college is being required to take various courses that have nothing whatsoever to do with the job you are wanting to do.

    If I go for computer science, do I really need to take various levels of English and History, another language, etc? Yeah it's not bad to learn these things, but if it's not detrimental to the job then it doesn't really make sense.

    That would be like when I went to bomb school paid for by FEMA going in there for a class specifically on explosives (can't go into the details), but then turning around and having to learn history on Rome. Not exactly related and has no bearing on where my job will take me.

    Kids are forced to choose things they may be interested in or not, but still has no bearing on the exact job they want.
    Like lets say I am 100% deteremined to get a CS degree, and I know I will get it. Learning English and History isn't going to help any more or less in accomplishing it, in fact it will make it harder with all the homework you have to do distracting and stressing you more than just learning what it is you want, despite any interest in said subjects.


    This is why I prefer trade schools, they are affordable and you learn the exact skills you need specifically for the job you are going for.
     
  6. Ryiah

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    Effective communication and writing good documentation.

    Being able to communicate with people that don't natively speak your language is a no-brainer. It's not at all an unusual occurrence for a company to have people working from home, and then you have the potential for an investor to be in a different country.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019 at 6:55 AM
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  7. N1warhead

    N1warhead

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    That's entirely missing my point though, some people simply aren't interested in any of that extra stuff and would rather simply get the skills they want, that other stuff should rather be an elective option that people want to do if they want, I mean no wonder why college is expensive. you have course on top of course on top of more courses.

    Again it's about what's detrimental to what you want to do, not speaking Korean is going to prevent me from programming an application and selling it. Nor is the History of the revolutionary war going to prevent me from making an application and selling it.

    Of course it's good to learn as much as you can, but at the same time, all that extra stuff just adds more and more cost, the more you learn the more you're worth, that's tried and true. But as mentioned before - not everyone can afford college and the underlying problem is all these courses you are required to take which skyrockets the price.

    But again, I'm not debating that the more you learn the more you're worth. Because that is most certainly true 100%.
    But some people simply want to attain the skills specifically for something.

    For the same reason people can spend hundreds of thousands for a masters of electrical engineering - they might have more opportunities that pay 60-120 an hour. But I can right now go to a trade school to be a powerline person for simply a few grand and make over 60 an hour and not be in debt and living my life happy and if during a state of emergency such as a hurricane they can make double and more of that 60 an hour.

    I've met some extremely smart people but they had absolutely no common sense, very book smart but common sense is throw out the window so just because one goes to school doesn't make them any better or less than anyone else.

    Another example is Mark Zuckerberg.
    "Mark Zuckerberg, Harvard dropout and CEO of a company worth nearly $400 billion, will be getting a college degree more than a decade after leaving his classes behind".

    He may not have been the only one to develop it, but he still accomplished in helping design it without a degree and became successful.

    There's so many examples of successful people who never had a degree, which is why I continually keep saying it shouldn't be required. There's more examples of successful people without first earning degrees than there are of people who did.

    But something tells me after writing all this - we are debating two entirely different things.
     
  8. FMark92

    FMark92

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    Unless you speak English, in which case they will send someone who can speak it. Good luck guessing where investor will come from.
    Good thing we took CS so dealing with them is not our job. That's the job of the guy one salary tier above me who didn't see code in his lifetime.
     
  9. Ryiah

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    My current contract is with a company that has an investor in a foreign country, and while they do speak our language they're far less able to express their thoughts on the progress of the game than if we were speaking their language.

    It is if you're trying to form a small indie studio where everyone has multiple roles. My job description with this contract may be "programmer" but I'm having to handle roles beyond what being a programmer normally entails. I'm just lucky I'm not the lead programmer who has been sucked into investor meetings with the "business" guy (who is an artist on the team).
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019 at 8:49 AM
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  10. angrypenguin

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    But you're missing their point, which is that stuff which seems unrelated to a newbie might be identified as highly related and/or a common weakness by the industry.

    In my software engineering training I had to do a course on technical writing. If you just want to write code that seems like a waste of time, but the ability to read and write precise technical documents is really important if you want to work in a team, or for a client. There's no way I would have Googled that and practiced it if I were self-teaching, but I learned it because someone at my university decided to make me do it, and in hindsight that was definitely a good thing.

    I'm not sure why we're going back to this... has anyone argued that degrees should be required?

    You don't have to. If, as a rule, everyone picks up a second language, then we generally increase the changes that any two globally disparate teams can communicate via some pair of members.

    But that aside, it also helps people to understand language in general, as compared to just the specific languages they speak (and/or code).
     
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  11. Stanley287

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    I think that the best idea is to go to college and study even more by yourself
     
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  12. Ryiah

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    There are a couple of things to note from the examples of Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Mark Zuckerberg. One, they all had an interest in computers and/or electronics from a very early age.

    Bill Gates wrote his first software program at age 13, Steve Jobs got a job working for Hewlett-Packard after he called up asking for info for an electronics project at age 13, and Mark Zuckerberg started programming in middle school which would have been around the same age as the other two.

    Two, they had some degree of ability to understand when a concept could be more important than the way it was currently being presented.

    Apple with Steve Jobs was almost never the company that came up with an idea but rather the company that took the idea and made it successful. I remember when the iPod was becoming successful. At the time we had Sony devices that functioned similarly but were largely uninteresting because Sony didn't know how to properly market it.

    Microsoft with Bill Gates was definitely not the company that came up with an idea. Windows as a concept existed for a while but until Windows (and MacOS) was never approached with the idea to make it widespread rather than limited to people with Swiss bank accounts.

    Mark Zuckerberg took a concept that was originally very limited in scope (Xerox wasn't the only one with an idea that was too narrow) and, while he initially started with just Harvard like the original project, he quickly expanded it to other campuses and then almost immediately to everyone.

    Basically, to be like these three individuals, you need to think like them, have started on your own, etc. You can't just stop at being programmer number forty-two who is happy to do their job and little else. Which I'm willing to bet is the mindset most people going for a trade school have.

    Having circumstances just fall into your lap is definitely important but if you're not of the mindset that would allow you to take advantage of said circumstances then it's irrelevant if the stars have aligned for you or not.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019 at 9:24 AM
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  13. APSchmidt

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    Looks like not everybody agrees with you. Knowledge should be free for everyone.
     
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  14. N1warhead

    N1warhead

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    @angrypenguin "'I'm not sure why we're going back to this... has anyone argued that degrees should be required?"

    That's literally all I've been talking about this entire time and haven't changed the subject at all. Hence why I said above I think we're all debating two very different things.
     
  15. APSchmidt

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    What about you?
     
  16. TenKHoursDev

    TenKHoursDev

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    What about me??

    N1warhead gave the most absurd figures. $250k to attend university? I've never heard of anyone having that much debt from university. The national average is $30k. What about private loans @N1warhead? Its not clear why you thought you needed $20k in cash.

    Not a clue where you can make $65/hr after trade school. The high end annual compensation there is $83k annually which is about $24.94/hr. Someones got their pants on fire...
     
  17. Arowx

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    It might depend on the nationality of the $ e.g. United States, Mexico, Australia, Argentina, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Pacific Island nations, and English-speaking Canada all use $.
     
  18. TenKHoursDev

    TenKHoursDev

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    Man have you seen n1warhead's avatar?
     
  19. N1warhead

    N1warhead

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    @TenKHoursDev Uhmmm you've never seen a masters degree cost 250,000? Or a doctorate degree costing even more? My uncle went through it idiot.

    Honestly your a fool dude. To think people who go repair powerlines make chump change after trade school.

    "The bottom 10 percent of electrical linemen made under $37,600, while the top 10 percent earned very generous wages over $99,860. While natural gas distribution companies offered the highest average wage of $95,550, electrical power companies employed the most linemen and paid them $73,850 a year on average."

    And then you got entry level coding jobs after college
    "$59,760/yr" on average according to Glassdoor.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019 at 7:58 PM
  20. N1warhead

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    Heck SCAD is over 30 grand PER SEMESTER.
     
  21. Zarconis

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    It must be very different in the US than it is in other places, degree's are so common here they stopped becoming a pre-requisite for many positions a long time ago (unless regulated (like MD's etc.). Experience and industry qualifications with an ability to sell yourself lands a job over here.

    I did go to Uni and left, by the time they'd finished their courses I was already earning on average 30K+ more than their junior degree led positions. It is becoming increasingly difficult to get a job without any prior experience which is the silliest catch 22 there is. I'm not saying they don't help, not for a second. They're just far from the guarantee they used to be.
     
  22. N1warhead

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    ^^^^^^^^.. It's really no different here man. You just got people who are all high and tight with their 'edumacation' Yes that's spelled wrong intentionally. And think they are better than everyone else such as @TenKHoursDev
     
  23. N1warhead

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    This thread needs to simply get locked now, it's getting to toxic.
     
  24. AndersMalmgren

    AndersMalmgren

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    I don't know how it is in the states, but here in sweden probably 95 procent of all people in the enterprise IT business have some kind of university connection, if not a master atleast a dropout like me.
     
  25. Billy4184

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    Here in Australia you just have to turn up and they sign you up for HECS which is basically a loan with very generous pay back options. You almost never have to really acknowledge that you are in debt, and it's easy to forget you even owe anything. Not just this but you can also get a student allowance from Centrelink.

    These fantastic achievements enabled me to make the biggest mistake of my life, which was loitering around in university for years doing a degree I was totally ambivalent about. If I had had to cough up even part of that money, I can tell you I would have figured out my priorities pretty fast!

    HECS or something similar is not necessarily a bad thing, because locking opportunity out based on financial situation is always a tricky thing, but people should need to prove themselves to professors as well as coworkers and managers (because university courses should be run in the real world, not inside the bubble of academia). I think university should be hard, and to keep pushing forward a significant percentage of people should be failed.

    After all, the goal is to produce skilled and capable people. That's what makes a student loan a worthwhile investment (or even profitable) for a government. The problem today is very much that it's politically difficult for the government (and unprofitable for universities) to operate any scheme that is based on actual merit. That's why university courses are diluted, all expenses are paid (except they're not) and people who have struggled through actual hardship to get their achievements in other countries are unsurprisingly coming and filling the competitive job opportunities.

    In conclusion, just remember that 'free' education is not just an opportunity but also a trap. A little bit of a hurdle is not always a bad thing, to separate those who really want something from those who are just coasting along, or waiting for another opportunity to put the blame on others as to why they are not getting where they (apparently) want to go.
     
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  26. Lurking-Ninja

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    Well, healthy people can be motivated on non-monetary ways more effectively. Besides closing out the poor who has a serious chance to not be able to pay back that loan if anything happens in their extended family is not the best motivation for them.
    The point is to not to burden everyone because you couldn't find what's motivating you. Instead of that, you need to either find out or seek help to find out what is motivating you.
    And finally: people are different, not everyone work on the same way.

    ps (edited): one more thought. it is good for the country to have as many educated people as possible because of the higher paying jobs and economy, and besides you never know where the next Einstein, Hawking, Neumann (this one speciel from Hungary) will come. Maybe they can't afford the university...
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019 at 1:58 AM
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  27. Billy4184

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    Read my post again.

    If there is no burden there is no merit. Like I said, read my post again. The main thing that needs to change is that more investment is required on the part of students, and education should reflect back to the student the true extent of their current capability. The proper investment required of students is not necessarily financial - but proving themselves capable. This is a burden that cannot be removed, and if done correctly will wash out 95% of people who are kidding themselves and don't really want what they think they want.

    It is not hard to understand that a society that does not push a person to reach their potential, which asks no investment, and which buffers them from failure everywhere, is a death trap. It is a ruination of life itself, an illusion that takes away someone's valuable time, destroys their personality, and prevents them from getting where they could have gotten. A diluted degree is meaningless. A degree that anyone can get is meaningless. Society does not owe all its riches to anyone who wants it. If someone wants something, they should have to go and get it.

    The obstacles should not necessarily be financial (though everything invested must be paid back in full in one form or another)..
     
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  28. Lurking-Ninja

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    That's the entire point of mine. The obstacles should not be financial. At all. The hurdles and obstacles should be academic or practical but they should have something to do with the level they should achieve.

    Money burden is not a motivator. It's a separator. Not to mention that a lazy, but paid education is equally useless. It's not better, just more expensive.

    ps: obviously everything I write here is a big IMHO
     
  29. Billy4184

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    Ideally yes, but every investment needs to be paid back. Like I said, I think that creating a system which produces skilled and capable, well trained people would do a lot for achieving a return on investment without asking a student to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a university course.

    A properly trained engineer, for example, makes a ton of money in taxes for a government, as well as in many indirect ways. What doesn't benefit a government is when someone gets a meaningless, diluted degree - because everything is made easy for them - and cannot find a job.

    That said, it's often a matter of perspective. In south america, it's common to work full-time during the day and study full-time at night, or vice versa. This is far from ideal and I'm certainly not recommending it as a solution - but it goes to show that many things can be achieved when someone truly wants it.

    Society can always be improved, but there's no excuse for not taking a more difficult path to get something because a paved road hasn't been built yet.
     
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  30. Zarconis

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    It doesn't matter how you achieve success as long as you do. My computer science degree course was too generic, didn't include industry qualifications and the internship section didn't give enough experience (a lot of sitting there without explanation of what they were doing).

    Also, I already knew most topics far more in depth from doing it myself (hence I left). I'd always recommend anything that gives an advantage, I don't do "agendas" neither would I bother sharing my opinion without first hand experience. I honestly believe after being in education for two decades should entitle you to a decent position.

    Whilst everyone has their own experiences, I believe it's a shame from my experience how things have turned out. As @Billy4184, it appears from the outside more like a profit scheme than help. It's difficult out in the wild, courses should train you to expect it.
     
  31. AndersMalmgren

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    Higher educations are ment to be generic, you learn to learn. Not learn a specific trade
     
  32. TenKHoursDev

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    @Everyone I did apologize in PM to @N1warhead , and deleted a particularly nasty comment here. A tidbit of information: things have been tough here in my family That is my only excuse.

    Back to the topic: I think @Billy4184 has summed up what I was getting at.


    That in italics sounds exactly like depression...

    There's a reason schools with a high dropout rate are the better schools too. Graduation rates approaching 80% are a red-flag. If a school is too easy to graduate from the degree isn't worth it. Nothing in life comes free or without struggle. Those who are willing to suffer for something both deserve and will achieve. Acting like a victim is suffering without reason and for no aim.

    If you really want to learn about why school is so pricey today I suggest researching government subsidies and give it some thought.

    In reality school would cost orders of magnitude less if there were no subsidies. Subsidies negate the effects of supply and demand.

    Every school that accepts government subsidized education is not only double-dipping from students futures they are also inflating the cost of educating their students.
    What happens when you fill out the FAFSA and get a ludicrous susidized student loan and grants? Those grants are "yours" technically except the school takes all of it before applying your loans. Yeah that money is going straight to the school you'll never see a dime of it unless you've somehow got cash to pay down the tuition/room and board in hand.
    So essentially the grants are yours except the school still wants to charge you for your education. There's nothing in the law that says subsidies have to offset costs. So the school double dips. They get the loan $$ and the grant $$. Not even that you can also get private loans if you like to live dangerously [and hardly at all]...
     
  33. angrypenguin

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    Yes, you learn to learn. But along the way you should be picking up the fundamentals of a certain profession, which is also an important, core part of the education.

    There would be little point in my going to uni and learning about discreet mathematics, logic, technical writing and programming if I then went to become a cabinet maker.
     
  34. AndersMalmgren

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    Before I became an entrepreneur I was employed at a IT consultant company, alot of those guys had master degree in Engineering Physics (civil engineer program but geared toward physics instead of computer science). Also I don't use most practical knowledge I gained during my 3 years before I got headhunted.

    When I started with Unity the linear algebra did help :)
     
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  35. Gor-Sky

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    You learn game development by creating games and not by going to college.
    I would keep your save job and create games in your free time.
    A company will hire you when you have a decent protfolio even without a degree.
    And when you success to get a job in the game dev industry in few years no one will care about your degrees but only experience!
    In 3-5 years (college time) you can create a lot of small cool games (1 game half a year) and build a decent portfolio.
    You will learn more which actually is important for a game dev than in the same time going to college because there you also learn stuff you will never need.

    Who would you hire? A person straight out of college with no real experience or a person with a portfolio and having done real games? Sure in college you work also on small game projects, but let's face the truth: Most aren't good.

    You learn game development by creating games so concentrate on that.