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Cheetah3D 4.3b2 adds lightmap baking

Discussion in 'Formats & External Tools' started by Martin, Sep 12, 2007.

  1. Martin

    Martin

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    Hi,
    due to the high interest form the Unity community Cheetah 4.3 adds lightmap baking functionality and support for a second UV set. With Cheetah3D 4.3 you can bake colors, direct illumination, ambient occlusion or full radiosity. Depending on your needs.

    So after character animation Cheetah3D adds the last missing major feature for game developers.

    Under the following link you can find a public beta of Cheetah3D 4.3

    http://cheetah3d.de/forum/showthread.php?t=2141

    Sorry but no documentation of the new features yet but there is some info in the forum thread.

    Bye,
    Martin
     
  2. HiggyB

    HiggyB

    Unity Product Evangelist

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    Martin, you are awesome, thanks for being such a huge supporter of our shared Cheetah/Unity community!
     
  3. User340

    User340

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    Cheetah 4.3 is very cool! 8)
     
  4. andeeeee

    andeeeee

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    Just one more missing feature perhaps...

    Would it be possible for Martin and OTEE to arrange to bundle a lite version of Cheetah with each copy of Unity? I'm thinking just basic modelling features, no rendering, no animation, only export FBX. Unity isn't quite a "batteries included" system as it stands - there's Unitron for coding, but there's no default 3D app.

    Cheetah Lite wouldn't be enough for serious game development but would be a good entry point for beginners (who would then probably upgrade to the full version of Cheetah eventually). Also, it would allow coders to create simple prototype objects without learning and/or buying one of the major 3D apps.
     
  5. taumel

    taumel

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    And which tools do you want for sound editing and 2d gfx?
     
  6. andeeeee

    andeeeee

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    Well, the thread was about Cheetah, which is why I mentioned it in isolation. I was just thinking it would be a nice bit of co-marketing that would help members of the "shared Cheetah/Unity community". It probably wouldn't make sense for Cheetah Lite to be available except as a bonus for Unity users.

    Since you mention it, though, the open source Audacity might be a good choice for a sound editor and I don't know if there is even a suitable candidate for a 2D graphics app. There isn't as much value in bundling off-the-shelf open source stuff with Unity, however, because users can download it for free anyway. I suppose you could say the same for 3D software - just get the latest version of Blender. It's just that Blender isn't as straightforward as Cheetah for a novice to use, and also it doesn't help Martin commercially if people use Blender ;-) After all, he has made quite some effort to respond *specifically* to the Unity community.

    I'm probably talking rubbish for all I know, but it just seemed like it might be an opportunity for two smallish businesses to help each other out commercially and benefit both their user bases while they do it.
     
  7. taumel

    taumel

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    If you've meant an seperate offer for cheetah, kind of a unity coupon were you qualify with providing something like a part of the unity serial or so then this is fine.

    But if you've meant bundles then i'm against it. The thing i dislike about bundles is that it really depends on your personal situation if you benefit from it or not. In the ideal case this is exactly what you need but in most cases you either don't need it and/or are paying an overall price for redundance, increase the donwload blabla...

    Secondly as i said before were do you stop and end here? Sound editing, 2D editing, video editing, 3D modeling. For sound editing you've named Audacity, it's free and so is Blender for 3d modeling. If you need more then look out for a better alternative. What will you bundle once Unity will be crossplatform? Cheetah is OSX only, so why not Silo then?

    I mean the price for Cheetah is really not high. It should already be affordable for everyone who can afford a unity licence no matter if it's indie or pro and if you watch the cheetah site then you'll notice that Martin also always offers reduced prices once a new big revision is about to be released. I think this is already very fair.

    Anyway if we're talking about it maybe you can come up with a nice offer of Sound Studio which seems to be the only reasonable sound editing tool on OSX. ;O) You see what i mean?
     
  8. andeeeee

    andeeeee

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    That's another possibility, but I think there would need to be a time-limited demo of Cheetah to make it really work (it's a save-disabled demo currently, if I remember). It would be better for people trying out the Unity demo if they had a straightforward 3D app to use out-of-the-box.

    I wouldn't expect the Cheetah bundle to add to the cost of a Unity purchase/upgrade but I understand what you are saying. I imagine you would prefer not to have Unitron bundled with Unity for the same reason. Perhaps a bundle-free version of the Unity download should also be available for those who don't want the extra stuff.

    Well, the thing about the other types of editor is that they are easier to live without. For most basic games, you can make do with sounds downloaded from free library websites. I understand video playback will be a pro-only feature, so beginners won't need a video editor (and most Macs have iMovie anyway). Also, it is rare for a non-artist to need to test a video in the game during production. Most 2D graphics are for GUIs - you can get by with text-only GUIs for most non-commercial work. However, I don't think it's very satisfying to have to use only stock 3D models in a game and finding models is too time-consuming for prototyping purposes.

    Incidentally, do we know that Unity is definitely going to be cross-platform anytime soon? Cheetah is exclusive to OSX, but if Unity can jump to Windows then presumably Cheetah can do it too if the incentive is there.

    All true, but as you said before, it's annoying to have to get something you don't really need. I think most coders would begrudge having to pay for a 3D app just to do occasional bits of "programmer art" for placeholders and demonstrations. Blender is free but it's certainly not easy to get into. Not the sort of thing a non-specialist would want to wrestle with. And artists occasionally want to use the computer of a coder they are working with. It's expensive (or illegal) to install a copy of a 3D app on everybody's machine just in case occasional tweaks need to be made.

    No reason why not, but I doubt SoundEdit Pro has made the same impression on the Unity community as Cheetah and maybe they would be less willing to do a deal. Most of their market probably lies elsewhere.
     
  9. taumel

    taumel

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    Without quoting each passage: I think a Cheetah Bundle is something that you badly want, i don't need it and i see more cons than pros with it. Without knowing the sales numbers it's also questionable if a light version might cannibalize sales on the normal one and how much more work it would take to keep supporting both versions. As far as i know Cheetah got press due the awards it's winning, word by mouth and i never came across a unity user so far who wasn't aware of Cheetah too. Make a link, name it as an example modeller for unity, what do you need more?!

    Unitron is a free editor: http://smultron.sourceforge.net/

    Modo has a artist and real world friendly licence which allows you to install it on each system you want to use. it.

    Generally: Don't make things complicate and keep it as simple as possible.
     
  10. andeeeee

    andeeeee

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    I don't badly want a Cheetah bundle, but it would be useful. Cheetah shouldn't be bundled if it would increase the cost of Unity and, as I said, OTEE should probably provide a bundle-free download anyway. If this happens then the only cons I can see are, perhaps, increased forum traffic or something.

    If a light version would harm sales or be hard to maintain, then it shouldn't be offered. But, in honesty, it probably wouldn't be hard to maintain and you would expect Unity users to upgrade to the full version of Cheetah once they outgrow the light version. Anyone content with the light version presumably wouldn't want to buy the full version and would more likely make a pirate copy, if anything.

    (Incidentally, Unitron is not exactly the same as Smultron and I don't think you can download Unitron separately.)

    Modo is too expensive and complicated for casual use. And no matter how many machines artists are allowed to install it on, they are not allowed to share it with their programmer colleagues.

    Doesn't a light version of Cheetah solve all these problems? It may be commercially impractical for all I know, but I'm sure it seems to help more than it hurts.
     
  11. taumel

    taumel

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    It's always more work to maintain two versions, no matter how slight the changes are. You also wouldn't expect users who already own a 3d package or are used/stringed to a certain workflow to buy a full version of Cheetah automatically.

    I'm quite sure no one pays for Unitron/Smultron but Otee may donate to Peter as this only would be fair.

    Look, i'm not here to sell Modo. They also don't need my thread here in External Tools in order for doing a great job as two days after they've released 301 their serverarray and the torrents are still extremely slow due to all the preorders, so i hope you take this in the right spirit: I both tried out Modo and Cheetah and were you can compare the two apps, Modo is easier to use, more powerful and has the better interface. Personally if i wouldn't have the money i also would go for Cheetah or Silo. Cheetah is a very nice app but saying Modo is harder to use simply is wrong.

    But let's just cut it here, okay? I've got work to do too... :O)
     
  12. Bampf

    Bampf

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    I'm mostly with taumel on this one. It might make sense to bundle something with Unity if it's full-featured, integrated, and supported. Unitron for example integrates with the Unity docs and gives color-coding. These are important features that make Unity a lot more approachable for new users and creative types who don't program as much. There was a lot of demand for those features. I haven't noticed a similar demand for bundled 3D editing capabilities.

    You could get much of the benefits and few of the downsides if Unity just came with a coupon discount for Cheetah and/or other products. This would be a purely promotional move by Cheetah, nothing more.

    Someone should get on Cheetah's case though about having a demo that lets the user import into Unity. For example maybe they'd be able to save and load their model but the name of the file would be hardwired.

    Disclaimer: I've never used modo or Cheetah.

    A more useful Unity bundle I think would be a sample library of models and animations. Newbies could use them for actual games, pros could use them as placeholder art. Although I understand version 2.0 will come with some nice trees. :)
     
  13. AaronC

    AaronC

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    Id say andee was just throwing up a "lite" suggestion. In a perfect world, Cheetah and unity would've always been one, and then we'd all be further down the track than we currently are with our work.

    theres no "right" or "wrong" modelling app to use with unity, and for the otee guys, thats fantastic. Its also fantastic for everyone who uses whatever app because theres just so many ways in.

    Cheetah has a strong unity community, but I think it may have a stronger 3d visualisation community. The architectual renderings I see are pretty impressive.

    So its not a case of should or shouldnt, its more like whether we take the chance on cheetah or not. The reality is is thats kinda like finding a gold nugget in your sandpit.

    The lightmapping is absolutely fantastic. Good work Martin.
    AC
     
  14. trypho

    trypho

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    I don't have much to add to the bundling issue except that I think Unity and Cheetah are each an incredible value in their own right.

    Mostly I just want to say that Martin is my hero (second only to the OTEE guys, of course). Every time I use Cheetah, I'm more impressed. And then I hear about features like lightmapping, and I wonder what I ever did before Unity and Cheetah. I know I spent a lot more time talking about my game and a lot less making it.

    -BC
     
  15. AaronC

    AaronC

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    Heres a small scene with two Lightmapped models. The terrain shader is the lightmapped diffuse detail off the wiki.

    I wonder is it possible to have an alpha channel that defines which parts are diffuse detailed and which parts arent?

    AC
     

    Attached Files:

  16. taumel

    taumel

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    What i always found very helpful is a more advanced primitive support. Director offers primitives which you can alter dynamically by code, for instance changing the mesh resolution of you sphere or the angle of the sphere which is drawn. I would have loved seeing his concept beeing enhanced in unity too as it gives you somekind of flexibility for a start and you could also alter the resolution of the content depending on the performance of the target machine. But obviously these are no teapots, cars, planes or whatsoever.
     
  17. Martin

    Martin

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    Hi,
    thanks for all the nice words. :D

    Concerning a Cheetah3D Lite version I'm not a big fan of that concept. Mainly because of two reasons.
    1. Maintaining two version would be quite some extra work. Especially for a one man show like Cheetah3D.
    2. Cheetah3D is already priced at the very lower end. Just compare it with Modo (895$). For one Modo license you get a Cheetah3D license (129$) plus 13 Updates a 59$.
    So I will probably not make a lite version in the near future. Sorry.

    I would be open for a full version Unity+Cheetah3D bundle (with a certain discount) but the interest from otee seem to be quite limited to make something like that.

    Bye,
    Martin
     
  18. Martin

    Martin

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    Hi,
    you did a really nice lightmapping job for the castle. But I would consider the grey groud below the castle. It's a little bit to bright. Your former scenes where the castle was on a green ground looked nicer.

    Bye,
    Martin
     
  19. taumel

    taumel

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    But only if Cheetah stays with these prices and you don't count in the taxes...but as i've written before i also think that it's priced already very reasonable.
     
  20. Martin

    Martin

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    That's true of course. I should have added that this calculation is based on the current prices which might change.

    Every company which sells goods to the EU has to add VAT. So adding VAT to both prices doesn't change the calculation. :wink:

    Bye,
    Martin
     
  21. VICTOM

    VICTOM

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    Martin,

    Wow, You deserve a sincere thank you on this great new feature.

    THANK YOU!

    Cheers,
     
  22. Randy-Edmonds

    Randy-Edmonds

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    I just downloaded 4.3 and tried the light/texture baking. It rocks!!!! Thank you so much for providing a tool that works so well at such an affordable price! (Not being a professional graphics guy, I would never pay $1000+ bucks for a 3D modeler, but I gladly paid $129.) Every Unity user should be using Cheetah.
     
  23. thylaxene

    thylaxene

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    Sorry for the added hijack to this thread. But taumel have you looked at this sound editor?

    http://www.hairersoft.com/AmadeusPro/AmadeusPro.html

    We use it here at Sector3, and do all our sounds for our games in it. What I like about it is that is has great recording abilities and it's multi-track editing. It's also the only Mac app I could find that did crash proof Ogg conversion, and it's reasonably priced!

    Cheers.
     
  24. taumel

    taumel

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    I also tested this one out but i wasn't happy with the usability and the accuracy when your preparing samples or loops. I'm still using the very good CoolEdit2k(+the multitrack) on WIN if i need to do audio sample work. The closest one on OSX was Sound Studio from Freeverse but i just don't want to buy a program which is worse than what i already have.

    There also is a link with a free version of the discontinued pro:

    -> http://deutsch.eazel.com/lv/group/view/kl36218/Cool_Edit_Pro.htm


    But thanks anyway...

    taumel
     
  25. podperson

    podperson

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    Audacity seems to convert to ogg ok.

    I do like Amadeus Pro though.
     
  26. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

    Volunteer Moderator Moderator

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    Yep, and also SoX Wrap works for that too. In fact I haven't had any Ogg problems with anything since version 1.5 of Unity; I believe there were some bug-fixes in that department since then.

    --Eric
     
  27. AaronC

    AaronC

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    Ive found Audacity the most frustrating app of all on osx, it exports files with no sound 10% of the time, and crashes 20 % of the time. I look forward to trying SoX Wrap as its got to work better than audacity. I guess you get what you pay for. Cant complain about audacity's price can I?

    Cheers For the links Taumel and Eric

    AC
     
  28. jaydubs

    jaydubs

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    Hey Targos,
    do you think the "Get what you pay for" tag applies to Cheetah3D? I know you've used other 3D apps and the fact that they cost more is justifiable IMO.

    P.S: I did download and test Cheetah3D before making any comments above.

    JW
     
  29. AaronC

    AaronC

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    Hey Jdubs.

    I have to say that so far cheetahs lightmapping seems to be just as good as Maya's Mental Ray, as I cant really tell them apart.

    Pros with Maya? You can bake more than 1 object at a time.

    Pros with Cheetah? You can see the baking being done, so you can stop it part way thru if somethings not set up right, as you can see it. and you can guesstimate how long its going to take, whereas with Maya, you just have that tiny little progress bar thingy which doesnt really reflect the bake time, and you have to wait till its completely finished before you see any result.

    Cheetah runs about 10x faster on my ppc. Its animation pipeline is slicker, if not as diverse. Maya is a superpower, good for masses of things, hell expensive, and resource thirsty.

    Cheetah is like a ninja in the night slipping past like the wind and executing deadly blows.

    But seriously, it is hard to compare cheetah to the big apps, knowing its one mans invention, but it is like magic, it consistently reveals more power, and any problem is overcome with a little more understanding of it. Like Unity it is young, and has a massive future.

    I think photoshop and Maya are overpriced, and that cheetah is a total bargain. It depends what you need. Im currently rendering out my design portfolio with it. It doent do everything, but not many apps do. Maya has some seriously annoying things about it, and for the price it simply shouldnt.

    Cheetah all the way mate.

    This is a cheetah scene Im going to have on my website when its finished:

    http://hagley.school.nz/home/c260527/LevelDesign.html

    Let me know if it works, I might have to put it into some public folder or something. Half the textures are my own, half are from cgtextures.
    AC
     
  30. bigkahuna

    bigkahuna

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    Sorry Targos, but I get an "invalid data file" error after it finishes loading the scene...
     
  31. VICTOM

    VICTOM

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    I have to agree with Targos. Larger more expensive programs start to get watered down with features that muddy the product at some point.

    Cheetah is a very nice tool to have - I also own Maya 8
    unlimited and I don't even use it unless I need a maya files converted. Wasted money for the most part.

    Cheers,
     
  32. AaronC

    AaronC

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  33. jaydubs

    jaydubs

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    Hey Targos,

    That looks sweet ... theres a couple of "gaps" but that can happen with any app ( I think ) :) see attachment. Also, both the 2nd 2 links worked fine ... was the character modeled, rigged and animated in Cheetah?

    I don't think it's a bad app ( Cheetah ) but I think with some people posting interest about Unity/Cheetah "bundles", the only people who would benefit from this would be the Cheetah people ( or person ).

    To elaborate: Unity is one of if not the best in it's class, whereas Cheetah isn't. Why pair them up in any way ... let it be the users decision to use whichever 3D app they want, and leave Unity as it is.

    One thing that I think lets Cheetah down is the examples posted at the website ... most ( not all ) are of a low standard. When showcasing what an app can do you should show the BEST of what it can do. Any "bigger" 3D app has examples that are far more professional than the ones posted at the Cheetah site.

    I'll still persist in trying to get high end results in Cheetah, but to be honest I think I might be pushing "it" up hill ...

    JW

    P.S: I use Maya for many things ... not just game dev.

    P.P.S: Does Cheetah have anything like Mayas MEL/Python capabilities? Writing custom tools etc to streamline workflow etc? If so is it easy to learn?

    EDIT: Theres no way I'd buy Maya Unlimited unless I was in film!
     

    Attached Files:

  34. AaronC

    AaronC

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    Heya, pleased the second 2 links work. the animations are motion capture. The character was modelled and textured/bound to mocap in Cheetah, I also have a hand animated model here:

    http://hagley.school.nz/home/c260527/CharacterAnim.html

    I do find the animation process the hardest, and find myself drawn to mocap.

    In Cheetah you can write scripts in javascript, though its a different type to unity's I believe. If you look in cheetahs help all the info is there. Plus through the menu's. Theres a lot I have to try out there, like an explosion script posted in the cheetah forum. Scripts for cheetah surface similar to the help offered here, which rocks.

    I'll have a hunt for that gap, cheers. Its good to have a fresh set of eyes on a project sometimes.
    AaronC