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Average price of a 3d character custom made?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by abdo400, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. abdo400

    abdo400

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    What could be the average price for a 3d character model textured and animated? (Like characters in fortnite and dauntless and these new games)
     
  2. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    a few thousand dollars or more
     
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  3. halley

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    Yeah, I imagine it's a couple hundred up to a thousand dollars for each step of the work involved from base modeling, base texturing, base rigging, fine modeling adjustments, fine rigging adjustments, then time tailoring each stock or fresh animation to fix quirky clipping. Add more time if you want high res / low res variants, custom outfits or skins, blend shape improvements for joints or face, and on and on.

    There are tons of premade generic models with a couple simple outfits and animations for around $100 though.
     
  4. GameDevCouple_I

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    Our artist would do one in dauntless or fortnight style complete with a rig that is compatible with store animations, for about $350.

    The same asset if sold generically on an asset store would go for about $10-20.

    Generally it costs a lot more to get something made bespoke, but you make up for it by having originality.
     
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  5. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    $50+
     
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  6. abdo400

    abdo400

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    Can you connect me with him?
     
  7. GameDevCouple_I

    GameDevCouple_I

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    Replied in the private convo, but yes I will get in touch with her and get back to you
     
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  8. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    How many hours does it take them? Where do they live?
     
  9. Murgilod

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    Between your shiniest nickel and every dollar on Earth.

    Just go to places like polycount, check out portfolios, ask for quotes, see who's best for your needs and hire accordingly. Make sure you have a rough budget prepared ahead of time, as many artists do scale prices depending on that.
     
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  10. BrandyStarbrite

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    :eek:
     
  11. Rasly2

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    Exacly, i noticed some people overprice chars, scareing away customers. But yah there is a wide range of prices, starting from 150~ for simply char like in 3d game kit and going up to 300 700 plus for Overwatch like.

    Anyway for hobby devs its all out of reach. What i think is interesting is that usualy unity is way better then unreal when it comes to make games easiler, yet it is unreal this time implementing a way to dev characters without 3d artists.
     
  12. Murgilod

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    It's worth noting, however, that the prices can go up a lot if it's not just modelling/texturing/rigging, but also designing the character. A good character designer is worth their weight in human souls, and tend to charge accordingly.
     
  13. Tiny-Tree

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    maybe its what the producer of the film sonic told to its HR ? :rolleyes:
     
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  14. frosted

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    what makes a good character designer?
     
  15. Murgilod

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    For things like the designs in Dauntless, Fortnite, Overwatch, etc., things like an understanding of how to convey relevant information in a silhouette, understanding the personality of the character and how they will apply into their animations, a strong understanding of things like colour theory to help keep things recognizable and readable at the same time, things like that. Games, especially action games, need to convey a lot of information at a glance as well, so understanding how to do these things in simple, effective ways is critically important.
     
  16. Martin_H

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    I thought the Dota 2 art guide has some pretty good info on that topic, helped me at least:

    https://support.steampowered.com/kb/9334-YDXV-8590/dota-2-workshop-character-art-guide


    I feel like the visual "readability" of characters etc. often gets neglected, even in big AAA games. Sometimes it's like no one even gives a S*** how functional the visuals are, as long as it looks cool in marketing screenshots...
     
  17. Murgilod

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    Blizzard used to have some really good character stuff on their site too, back when they were doing the NPC redesign for World of Warcraft, back around before Cataclysm was coming out, though I can't find it now.

    But yes, character design has kinda taken a bit of a hit in... not even recent years, but really all sorts of years ago. A bit after the HD era kicked off, a focus on realism in aesthetic sensibilities meant a lot of games leaned more towards reproduction rather than representation. This is part of the reason we got some really drab looking games around that era, something we're only just starting to recover from in the last few years.

    Another problem is that games have a... just dreadful sense of fashion about them. There's part of a video that's relevant to that by Patrick Gill of Polygon, which is a largely humourous look at the Star Wars games, and the aesthetic choices that go into them. (timestamp: 1:53)



    On top of that, there's a video on the GDC channel that covers some of the things I glossed over. It's an overview of how fashion choices affect perception of characters.



    Fashion is a part of character design that a lot of people starting out extremely overlook.
     
  18. Martin_H

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    Great stuff, thanks for sharing!
    I was a bit surprised that in the GDC talk she didn't mention one of the most popular fashion games on steam:
    Dark Souls :D.
     
  19. Murgilod

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    Dark Souls is... a little tricky, fashion wise. Kinda takes a looooooooong time to look like something other than an extra in an episode of Game of Thrones.
     
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  20. Rasly2

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    btw if you can do costumes for cosplay, you can just dresup.. 3dscan yourself and you have free toon for your game.
     
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  21. kdgalla

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    Although it might end-up looking like Brief Karate Foolish (possibly NSFW?)
     
  22. SnowInChina

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    its not really overpricing
    i read an article about the creation of overwatch characters and each character cost something like 80k $ to make


    if you need a week to create the character, which is reasonable, depending on many factors, thats 40 hours of work
    assuming you charge in the lower hourly wages, 25$/h, that's 1000$
    a professional can charge a lot more than that and taking into account revisions, complexity etc it can easily take longer than a week to make

    people from low income countrys can undercut that naturally, or hobbists/students/etc, but they aren't doing the industry or themselfs any favors
     
  23. Rasly2

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    People like those exaples, but bliz artists are getting pay per hour.. so no wonder it takes so long because they are drinking tee 90% of time :)

    Anyway for us only way to get good 3d is aset shop where artists can make better price.
     
  24. SnowInChina

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    kinda doubt that in a competitive industry like games, where there are thousands of people waiting to get a chance
     
  25. Murgilod

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    If you think that people waiting to get a chance have the chops to compete for established character design positions, uh...

    ...that's... cute.
     
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  26. SnowInChina

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    actually, there are a LOT of really good character artists, who have the skills to do the job, but there aren't nearly as much positions available
    so, yes, there are a lot of good character artists out there waiting to get in
    so next time you try beeing condescending, check your facts

    https://polycount.com/discussion/149131/becoming-a-3d-character-artist-what-is-your-opinion
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  27. Murgilod

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    Yeah, uh, I'm one of the people who works with others on the hiring process. I've seen more portfolios than you've had showers.
     
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  28. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    This is interesting. As a hobby character artist, of course I've read all this a million times and am aware of these types of needs. But as a gamer -- as a long time gamer -- I feel like these guidelines actually do more to turn me off than make games more accessible/enjoyable. Depends on your audience, of course, but 99% of games I play within a minute I've already got the whole thing figured out... cause everybody is following the same guidelines. Heaven forbid gamer have to put some effort into figuring things out, or learn through experimentation. No, big guy is slow and has lots of health, skinny ninja girl is fast and sassy, colorful guy is good and dark guy is bad....Maybe some gamers bitch and whine when their expectations aren't met, but I think there is an audience of gamers who are cool with things being novel and different... because I am.

    Like, I know people think Dark Souls is so hard and all, but by the 3rd I got through the entire thing only dying a few times.... namely because the character design is so "good" that you already know exactly how they'll behave before they do anythihng. I dunno that that is necessarily a good thing...Same thing in Sekiro, I already know how enmies are gonna act just from looking at them. How much fun is that?

    Then you've got a cool little indie game called Exanima, where all character models are basically the same, and armor doesnt equal slow and ponderous, and you really have ot approach each new situation really tuned in and ready to react. It makes for really engaging, immersive gameplay.

    I don't see the art in conformity, and I don't see the need to put convenience and frictionless experience above all else. Just my sensibilities as a game consumer, thhough.

    In fact, the fews games I've enjoyed of recent are very "drab" games in which all characters look more or less the same. So what happens is I have to figure the game out by 'touch and feel', so to speak. Makes for a much more interesting expereince, IMO, rather than seeing the same archetypes over and over and knowing the end before you begin.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  29. Lurking-Ninja

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    Yes, you should learn and employ the standard rules before you break them, because you need to know when, what rules you're breaking and on the top of all: why you're breaking them.
    Character creation and development is not too different from cinematography and writing. There are a lot of written and unwritten rules around them. This is because we have a culture around them and people have expectations (like the fat guy is slow and powerful, the skinny girl is agile and sassy), it's easier to concentrate to other things if you don't break all the rules. Then you pick a couple of rules and break them to create more deviation and interest. But you need to be careful and you need to be mindful. You want to create feelings, enjoyment, interest in your audience and you don't want to confuse them.
     
  30. Gor-Sky

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    If you dont need animations just the character with a humanoid rig you can find people on polycount which do it for 500-1500 dollars depending on detail. Of course you need already a ready character design and refence sheets from each angle. Lets say the artits works 40-60 hours on it. A skilled 3d artist can do that for a human character when it is his strength and he is specialized on characters.
    What makes Overwatch characters so expensive are the flawless animations. Every animation is perfectly fitted each character and with a lot of detail and motion. I think one longer animation takes the same time as the base 3d modeling!

    Some guy was selling a whole body suit for recording animations yourself so perhaps doing own animation could be cheaper than buying like 10 animations.

    Also it really depends on the country the 3d artist works from. Europe and the USA are expensive. Asisan prices are lower(except Japan).
     
  31. neoshaman

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    The endless ITERATIONS to make it good :D
     
  32. Martin_H

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    I didn't see @Murgilod advocate for on-the-nose character tropes, feels like you two are talking about different things. In terms of readability and recognizability I'm 100% with her. Visually obfuscating information to make the game harder is objectively the wrong choice for the vast majority of games, because it gets in the way of fast and satisfying decision-making and adds an artificial layer of frustration that is simply uncalled for in products designed to be fun.

    Dark Souls isn't made to be hard, it's made to feel accomplished if you beat it. It being kinda hard for new players is just a by-product of design decisions in support of this design goal, it was never the goal itself.
    You could show a new player every move-set of every enemy and boss of DS3 in advance, and they still wouldn't breeze through it like you did with DS3. The thing you describe isn't caused by the predictability of enemy behaviour based on their visual designs to the degree that you attribute to it, imho. I think this has a lot more to do with muscle memory, instinct and reflexes. You just managed to "git gud", the game is fine as it is. If the 3rd one was still a tough challenge for someone who beat 1 and 2 already, it would be absolutely impenetrable for any new player entering the series at the third part. For enough people that's already the case. A friend of mine couldn't even get past the tutorial boss in DS3, and he's been gaming just as long as I have, he just never chose to knuckle through a soulslike game.
    Balancing a game's difficulty around the needs of hardcore fans of a series generally doesn't seem like a great idea because it will funnel the community towards elitist experts who only can enjoy a type of experience, that no new player can enjoy.
    I've seen parts of the MOW:AS2 community throw a fit when the tiniest of visual clarity features was added (they added a visual timer to thrown grenades, making them a) clearly visible at all, and b) giving the information whether there is time to react to a thrown grenade or not, making the grenade-cooking mechanic more meaningful). They went absolutely berserk because this made the game more playable and less frustrating for filthy casuals. I understand any dev who would rather alienate that part of the playerbase with each new title than nurture it till those guys are all that are left.

    But if you approach each situation ready for everything, are you still making choices? Isn't that another form of "always the same"? I had the game on my wishlist for a while, but it didn't seem like something I'd enjoy so I removed it. If it's ever on sale I might try it out just to see what you mean.

    There's a place for everything and imho the only place for poor visual readabilty and a lack of clarity and hierarchy in the presentation of the gamestate are "masocore" games like "I wanna be the guy", and Milsims, because both are designed to be frustrating. They are not designed to be fun, they are designed to be rough experiences, and some people only like rough stuff. I strongly advise against thinking you are "just a game consumer", as far as I can tell you are a rather rare kind of gamer, with tastes that don't line up with the majority of gamers. And based on what you're working on and for what kind of people the game is, that can either be a blessing or a curse. But you need to be aware of it.

    I love drab grey & brown games as much as the next guy, but I want to at least clearly see what grey/brown silhoutte is a living enemy and what isn't. I think games like MOW:AS2 could be vastly improved by just tiny changes in value and constrast to separate enemies and backgrounds a bit more. I can show you an example if you want.
     
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  33. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Good points all, @Martin.

    I'm not going polar opposite of what Murg said, just offering different perspective. And yes, I know that my taste in gaming is far from mainstream, but I've seen plenty of people yearn for the same types of games I describe and enjoy. I'm not that weird.

    Anyway, yeah visual examples are always the best thing. I took a look at that war game and see no issues with it, so would be interesting to see how you'd improve it, make it more readable, etc.

    As far as "being ready for everything" = no decisions at all, I can't agree with that. This is how I approached all the Souls games and I have put more hours into those games than any others. And if they came out with one every year that just did the exact same thing but had new levels and characters, I''d keep enjoying them. Thing with those games is, you exercise a certain discipline of caution, you have a certain level of reflex skill, and you've got it. It's not hard. I like that. For me, I don't get accomplishment sense from games, I just like the moment to moment decision making, being in the zone, acting and reacting to threats.... just being in the game. I don't like to pause to make multi-tier ninja plans, I like to learn by playing constantly. If they took out the boss fights, I think I'd liek the games more.

    So games that you might call frustration, to me they are a consistent stream of "in the zone" gaming. It's not "make the wrong choice and you'll fail," it's more like a journey with thousands of tiny decisions and momemnts of low and high and the experience can only be viewed retroactively as a whole. This gives me strong replay value.

    For instance, in some of the boss fights in Souls games, it just boils down to reflex skill. You dodge the right way at the right time, you surive. You don't, you don't. Those aren't fun for me. I don't like everything being on the line in one instant. That's just stressful for me. Thsoe are the boss fights I summon a friend for. But going through the long levels where you just slog through tons of enemies, a few minibosses, and it's more like a test of endurance and focus, that's something I can do endlessly.

    So, in our own game, we have two distinct campaigns. One is more bread-and-butter old school strategy, in which you make big decisions that either return you failure or success. Then, there is the campaign I designed, which is more of an endurance slog. It's more about consistently making good micro-decisions to get through to the end. Same game, but very different experiences. The more core strategy campaign I do enjoy, but it is definitely more frustrating and stressful to me, to the point that once I hit failure, I'm usually ready to take a break. But in the endurance focused campaign, I hit failure and I just wanna try again and again. Different strokes for different folks is all.

    So, tying all that back to character design, I don't need then for design to give me an instantaneous explanation of whats gonna happen. I'm gonna learn by playing and paying close attention to details. There is certainly a market, albeit smaller, for people with longer attention spans and who are eager to figure out something novel, just a matter of reaching them. The people who like everything in the game design to be catered to making it so they don't have to be "frustrated" at all have enough games for them already. The rest of us are starving.

    Tying all that back to OP... I can't really, but IMO what people call good design is just a matter of understanding the common tropes and adhering to them. Not diminishing this as its still a big challenge that takes years to learn, but for me at least that's not very motivating. I'm too contrarian. Anyway, that coupled with the technical know-how is what makes art expensive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
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  34. kdgalla

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    One thing they do in the Serious Sam games that's kind-of cool is that each enemy has it's own distinct sound that's easy to identify. The games are usually full of surprise ambushes, but if you listen, you can always tell what type of enemy to expect and select the best weapon to use ahead of time.

    I thought this was interesting because most people don't mention audio at all when talking about character design. Maybe instead of just hiring a 3D artist, you could hire a sound designer too.
     
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  35. Martin_H

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    Very interesting! I actually can relate quite a bit to that. I would also still enjoy the Dark Souls core gameplay loop without the bosses, but I can't for sure say I'd like the game more that way. I do get some fiero moments ( https://www.whatgamesare.com/fiero.html ) out of them, and if at all possible I beat them without summons, because otherwise they feel too easy and I no longer get the feeling of accomplishment from beating them. But some of them I could certainly do without, especially those that have a very long traveltime from bonfire to boss or those that have extremely low error-tolerance (kill you in 1 or 2 hard to dodge hits) or are only weak to strategies I don't enjoy using, like parrying.

    Now about those MOW:AS2 examples:

    2019-06-17.jpg


    2019-06-17a.jpg


    You'll need to view them at 100% zoom. This is just a random screenshot from my folder where I made the background slightly brighter and slightly lower constrast (there's a lot more that could be done, I just wanted to show how a minor change would already improve it a lot for me personally). I masked out the living units (missed a couple pixels here and there), so they are just as before, but their silhouettes are much easier to read against the brighter background. It took me a while working on that, before I even noticed that cannon crew on the right, which goes to show that there really is an issue here. When I play I normally have the overlay feature on that draws all enemy units that are obscured by geometry in red and all your obscured units in blue. Since units frequently get obscured by vegetation etc., this is quite effective. But I'd prefer a more immersive boost in visual clarity over the ham-fisted but effective overlay.
    In Unity something like that could be implemented as an accessibility feature that blends global color variables in the shaders to varying degrees into the albedo textures of environment materials and unit/character materials, to increase contrast between them.
    Still one of my favourite RTS games though! If you have the slightest bit of interest in the genre, I highly recommend it to you, because it has very little hand-holding, can be brutally difficult, and has plenty of those situations where without the right strategy you'll feel like you're throwing eggs against a brick wall, trying to tear it down.
     
  36. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Gonna check that out for sure. I never really got into strat games... until i made one. Now I think they're pretty cool, hehe.

    I see what you mean about visual clarity. And I agree, a fundamental change in lighting and maybe even color scheme could go a long way to making the game not look like a uniform gray "bleh", even if it is still war-torn earth theme.

    For myself, being able to visually identify where units are isn't so important as I usually just remember where I put them even if I can't see them, and if not most games have a tab select or unit UI bar where you can easily select them. Then they have an outline shader or whatever. But after watching some playtesters, I realize some people don't use the UI helpers, and also don't remember where they put their units. But.... those typically aren't core strategy gamers, I expect. I don't see how you can play through the game without having spatial memory of your units unless its very, very easy.

    Especially in war games, half the battle should be seeing (IMO). So I like when it's actually work to comb through the image, looking for tell-tale signs of danger. My biggest turn off in war/shooting games is UI identifiers on enemies. It absolutely kills not just immersion but kills engagement in the game. Essentially turns the game into pong, right? You're just looking for some easy to find identifiers, pointing and clicking. Where is the tension?

    I used to play Sniper Elite PVP a bit, and I remember one dude saying how much he liked just sitting in a bush, scanning for enemies in the distance. Even if nothing happened for like 10 minutes at a time, he just really enjoyed the careful search. And I totally agree. It's like hunting. Many people think nothing is happening and its boring, but that's just because it requires you to self-engage, rather than be dragged along like a dog on a leash. So even though you may be sitting still for a long time, you are highly proactive, perhaps more so than even the fastest paced arena shooters. The real game isn't in seeing a thing and shootinig it before it shoots you (which, to me is very simple and boring), it's in figuring out the psychology of your opponent, so you can see them first without them seeing you. It was the same thing in older Ghost Recon games, which if you search around you'll finid plenty of gamers lamenting over the disappearance of games like that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  37. frosted

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    I think in FPS games this kind of thing is almost a genre line in and of itself. Some games favor much more immersion, some favor super clear visibility.

    I don't think there's clear "best" here, but I do think games should be consistent about it. If you're going for realism and immersion, don't throw up tons of HUD. If you're going for pure gameplay (a focus on raw mechanics), commit to it with the HUD and present relevant information as clearly as possible.
     
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  38. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Yeah, agreed. I just want to make a counter point to the idea that "good design" must equal instantaneous and work-free recognition. That is only one kind of good design. Doesn't mean the opposite -- poor readability and confusion -- is good, it's just a matter of degrees. And there is a market for people who are tired of the old tropes and want something totally new. In fact, I think it may be safe to say that the "good design" tropes we see over and over are only serving an over-saturated market. That's how come gamers can be so picky. Everybody is trying to make the same game, so only the very best are gonna rise to the top. But there's plenty of us who want anything other than that same old game with thte same old design tropes.

    Anyway, I just want to make one last off topic thought about "fiero" moments before I actually do get back to work. :) Some years ago, I was really into mountain climbing. I got into solo climbing and did some pretty dangerous climbs. I wanted to test myself in the toughest possible scenarios. See what I was made of, right? What I learned is this: nothing special happens at the summit. There is no special feeling. Nothing happens. It's just the halfway point and everything from there becomes a real miserable slog. So what? Do you quit climbing because suddenly its not worth the effort? No, you realize that all the joy is in the climbing. You've heard it a million times, it's the journey, not the destination.

    So that's why I don't get any kind of sense of accomplishment from games. Or anything really. Once you achieve your "dreams", you realize it was all just nonsense anyway. The joy is in the doing.

    Not denying that a lot of people do throw their hands in the air and become overcome with emotion after slaying Ornstein and Smough, but, as an artist, I want to show people something higher, right? (though, to be fair, all the Souls games end on this note that it's all for nothing and the struggle always starts anew) That is what we are trying to do with art. Impart some wisdom or knowledge we think is important for others to realize. That's why I'm attracted to games that aren't about you being the big smarty, but are about you struggling to cope with reality, and enjoying the struggle -- not a useless and arbitrary 'reward".
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
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  39. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    i think the reason you don't see as much discussion abotu sound is because its really expensive and its mostly just artist and programmers here. But yeah, sound is 100% part of a good design.
     
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  40. neoshaman

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    Yeah but you still need to get to the destination, i terms of game making that would be enjoying so much making game that never end any project!



    NEIN!

    Masocore tend to come in two type, execution (getting over it) and subversion (I wanna be the guy). I'll focus on the second which is the one you misunderstand. Masocore are based on extreme readability BUT turn it on it head to make a punchline. The best example is the apple tree is wanna be the guy, two apple falls down and kills you, when you try again, you jump over them, but the third FALLS UP, the thing is that it always falls up. That's basically the game teaching you it's mechanics, it rely on you knowing the rules and knowing they can be bent.

    But they are bent in predictable fashion, masocore are fair in that they are understandable and beatable, you know you can overcome. Which mean the gameplay aesthetics turn from reading and reacting to a kind of puzzle and mind game with the designer. They tend to be based on simple mechanics (simple platformer for example) which tend to be tired and tropey but where the audience is already familiar with the rules, familiar being key for the genre to work.

    They are necessary readable else the subversion won't work, you have to understand what has happen to create a plan to overcome. One of the fun of masocore is discovery, it's the joy of seeing what is the next trick, anticipate trap and how playful a level is really. It tend to be more popular with fan of the genre being subverted, which precisely already know all the in and out and various pattern of gameplay. There is a real fiero in beating the designer at its own game (haha you didn't get me this time) and sometimes it's the cat and mouse that is funny (like you avoid a trap, but there is a trap beneath the trap because the designer anticipated your move "I see what did there"). Trolling can be fun, the back and forth is the enoyment.

    In general once you figure out a sequence, it's not trapping you again unless there is element of execution.



    While not a masocore per see, the stanley parable and undertales operate on similar logic.
     
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  41. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Really interesting. I wasn't familiar with a lot of these terms. Learned a lot.

    I think in my own design, I am tending towards these ideas. I know all the tropes by now and am bored of them, so I try to take them, flip them upside down, and try to teach the player that they can't just rely on ingrained expectations but need to think critically and try to be ready for anything. I like that idea more than just guiding player along and designing everything to make them feel successful though designer is hand-feeding them.

    I think this kind of approach is more appropriate for the indie game maker as the Barney style approach is already well covered by AAA. I don't see a point in competing for that market.

    Good case example is One Hour One Life. That is a game that you literally cannot make sense of until you play through the tutorial several times and really pay attention. It's just absolutely novel in design. It certainly goes counter to any established tropes. But its found its audience and is doing really well. This is a game that was made by a single person, so obviously they can just do whatever they want and accept as much risk as they want. AAA and even AA cannot do that. So it's leveraging strength and finding a niche rather than jumping into a feeding frenzy with sharks much larger than yourself.
     
  42. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    IMHO old game use to have some part of this because they were littered with secrets, so off the predictable beaten path you had nice challenge and shortcut based on some variation of that idea. It was to such a point I could (feel) predict secret places, invisible path or blocks, or hidden items, just because a single unrelated block was misplace, the timing of a room is weird or just because nothing weird happen for too long, there was some sort of diffuse logic.

    For example I have seen young gamers raging on internet about how mario 64 stars placement was bad, because of (optional) stars, like in the one stuck in a wall you must blast yourself with the cannon in whomps fortress, because there is no "hint" about it, and you can't find it on your own ... my 10 years old self just sneeze through all of them because that's like low level and obvious ...

    But then I remember when I was working in belgium with that marketing guys, he thinks he is a hardcore gamer, he played more than 90 games! that way more than the average gamer according to his knowledge, but he kept doing stuff like playing zelda snes and seeing an empty room and just leaving :eek: I mean that's secrets 101, empty space is always suspicious, there is a secret.

    But then I start counting how many game I played, across nes, snes, atari, commodore, amiga, amstrad, game boys, PC, etc ... I played thousands of games ... That was the first time how I understood how badly equiped (at the time) I was to understand "basic players" to design game for them... I see that old self whenever someone post on forum that rubber band is bad. It's not always about you I want to shout lol.

    I miss secret filled level though (I realized it was also due to maximizing replayability by rewarding knowledge of the level, the modularity workflow of tile based graphics, but mostly about filling the square mapping of tile memory to maximize it, empty space was a waste).
     
  43. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    That's the thing. It's not like in one or two generations all the smart genes were replaced by dumb genes. But what has happened is big publishers keep making their games bigger and bigger, so the common denominator has to get lower and lower to make return on the massive investment. So even smart kids, if they grow accustomed to really dumb games, come to expect that. Then when they encounter a game that requires an iota of critical thought, it is "frustrating" for them. This is how we make ourselves dumber. Games should be evolving, not retrograding. I like to think of games not just as entertainment, but cross-training. If we imagine ourselves all as one big team, our goal then is to share everything we've learned so we can all improve together, right? Doesn't mean games shouldnt be silly and stupid fun, but I see no benefit from making them simpler and dumber to the point that there is hardly a game at all.

    That's pretty mind-blowing, TBH, that players enter an empty room and leave. That's like, gaming 101. Developer doesn't take time to make a room just to be empty! There's something in there. I thought everybody knew this basically from birth?? Maybe it sa difference of gamers who grew up playing more single player games versus ones who mostly play MP. Most those MP games make anything important impossible to miss, otherwise the less-observant players would consistently lose. And we don't want people losing for their faults....
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  44. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    There is worse, some player when get told insistently that they should not do something, well just don't do it :D they don't get the whole wink wink do it wink wink!

    But the thing is that it's just a matter of literacy and having the mean to acquiring that literacy, designing by substraction and low common denominator don't allow newcomer to learn and get skills over time. Even though they don't have to go through this necessarily on the main path, having side path where they can get this would be cool.

    Kinda tangentially relevant:
     
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  45. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Well said! And great video.
     
  46. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Blow has never said anything relevant in his life.
     
  47. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    Fortunately here he is just parroting thing smarter people have said!

    I think in his video he is overgeneralizing to software, if anything software model of sharing knowledge is largely base on redundancy and nerdy interest of the niche, like everyone now making gameboy emulator in any language, from verilog to ruby.

    IMHO the real point of concern is in hardware, as if hardware fail, all software and knowledge based on that hardware fail too. And the rush to centralize things in the cloud make point of failure much more potent, it's a huge infrastructural weakness. I have loss due to online service stopping.

    We had something similar recently with the string of failure of intel chip design, only because we had alternative in the market that were resilient to those attacks (like arm and amd chip), that the infrastructure showed strength through diversity. It might not seem that problematic to lose some gigawatt of compute due to throttling performance of intel chip, but it could have been much more dire potentially, in case of serious international cyber war exploiting a more fatal weakness. We can't exactly print chip, and knowledge is heavily guarded by trade secret, market pressure also ensure we tend to narrow the diversity of architecture. For example x86 is dominating certain segment of the market, we have to thanks mobile to add pressure on risc arm chip design to accelerate their maturity to the point where they can challenge the dominance of x86 by sheltering it.

    Chip is still IMHO in healthy range anyway, I use that as a point of comparison, let's move to another one. All of that might be just theoretical and pointless what if of nerd obsessing about improbable thing. Except it as already happen in another markets ... multiple times! We are well aware of recent move to market disruption, it is generally seen as a good thing by tech yuppies, but in another hand devast entire community with gentrification, or you have sector collapse due to innovation. However all of those are small local collapse, they are civilization level collapse, even though they work using similar mechanics. I want to point to a near collapse like the Gros michel banana, who swept through the world as the one banana to plant to make profit and whole infrastructure was build up to support that, up until an unstoppable illness nearly wiped out all of the gros michel, the lack of diversity in banana plantation (with loss of entire variety of banana and the knowledge to plant them) almost kill the entire sector, they had to scavenge variety of banana to prevent it from happening. This banana crisis directly affect me as I have 50% chance to develop life threatening cancer due to poisoning in banana plantation (kepone was overused to prevent collapse of plantation, big economic force here) that spread out to contaminate the food ecosystem. Closer to civilization level (but still not quite not it) was the 2008 subprime, jury stills out if we ever learn anything from it.

    These thing aren't theoretical to me, as I'm poor, which I don't say to score point, from a poor part of the world, I see all these thing affecting my dailies. For example did you know, than even though I'm part of france (and there is a legal concept of territory continuity) I can't access google wallet at all, which mean I'm locked out from the market by default, we can't build the next facebook if we could. Some observant people would say that I don't need to stay locked to that place, and move (digitally) to benefit from the market, but then I lose the only competitive advantage that allow me to from safely sheltered from direct competition, in a market that I understand, and to which the size is big enough to reach critical size to start competing in further market. Doesn't help there is a huge brain drain here, as the population between 20 and 40 has to move out for education and making a living, meaning we have loss of local knowledge transfer through generation, doesn't help that economical power is in the hand of a handful of powerful and historical family from a particular lineage. Money don't mean much when you are beholden to infrastructure you don't control. All I see around me is huge infrastructural failures, and of course it does taint how I see these things. It does directly affect how I approach game making for example (ie I don't have a prospect of living off it by default, not by doing it in standard way anyway).

    /tangent
     
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