Atavism by Neojac

Cool. thanks. Just didn't see any recent posts.

 

Here another post from the atavism forum that have no replies and it is filled with pertinent questions : http://www.atavismonline.com/forum/general-discussion/287-anyone-using-agis-plugin-calls-already

But Jacques still saying no unanswered questions on forum and i will post here every legitimate unanswered questions i found just to help the developers.

 

Server side PHYSICS isn't on the Roadmap... What's on the Roadmap appears to be only path finding / Collision detection instead of a full Server side Physics simulation with triggers and everything. Major blow to anyone wanting to run triggers or any advanced Physics stuff on the Server but it is what it is.

So all of those questions in that post concerning Physics is void unless they were to add their own Physics simulation which really shouldn't be a Plugin but instead built right into the core which we don't have access to.

 

Any news from the merchants and trading update scheduled for last week?

i see it was delayed for this weekend but havent heard any news yet.

has it been postponed? again?

 

Are you serious there will be no server side physic? The more i look at it the more it seem like many promises wont be keep at all.

I would like Jacques to confirm this or soom.

 

well, they never promised full physics on the server, altho server side collision detection only.



so far the only full physics aware networking server available up to date outhere is the unity instance server, ie: uLink server, or Unity networking server. or any other server networking plugin that runs inside a unity instance as a server.

anything else that runs outside of unity instance as of right now is just not a full physics or no physics at all server and dont let anyone else tell you the opposite.
photon, smartfox, electrotank or any other that runs outside of unity instance does not have physics as of yet at least not the available ones outhere

most of serious game dev studios do not like full physics server due of the high resource intensive on the server therefore reducing the capacity of ccu by almost 80% compare if not using full physics,

but some add server side collision detection or checks to avoid players cheating and this can be without eating enormous amount of resources in comparison with full physics.

 

Yes that is true for AAA Studio... We are indies though... We are known for our Innovation and taking risks beyond what the Backers of AAA studios are willing to take. For MMOs to really become more innovative we need to be able to start doing more with AI and Physics. For us it's not about being able to cram the largest number of people into a single area because let's face facts most Indie MMOs won't reach past 100,000 Active Subs.

 

Merchants and building update has been released. You can now download the latest versions from your download links.

 

Adding server side physic would be a bad idea take way to many resources. and you can do triggers with just collision detection. The Ataviosm system should not have built in things that taking risks. The developers using Atavism should decide if they wish to take risk and add it. Atavism should be about a clean low cost in performance operating structure that you build on not a click one button look at my cool new mmorpg like every one else mmo kit.

Also pixelquaternion if I understand right your not even a owner of atavism yet. If I am right on that please stop trolling a product that some of us using are happy with while others or not. I have no problem with JamesPro saying his feelings on the subject or other owners that are happy or unhappy saying whats up. But people running around saying how bad a product they don't even own is a problem that hurts products. Even someone like James has gone throw this on there own product with bunch of people just attacking for no reason on forums just to attack it hurts production of said product.

 

Well Tom, based on the roadmap they aren't even adding Collision detection. Based on what the roadmap says it's purely path finding with a system in Unity for generating the Path Finding meshes... How are you supposed to do Triggers with just Path Finding?

 

2) Terrain System - 26th July
- Full Paging and stitching Unity Terrain System
Server Side Collision
- Navmesh collision generation in Unity that can be copied to and run on the server
- Navmesh editing on the server

On there road map but I am guessing after bug's and everything probably in August might get lucky get it end of july.

The following example is just one idea how to do it as I can not be sure tell I see how they have it working.

Most Nav mesh can move around character controllers. So if you want to use a trigger just add a characterController or some type collider. .So I would just make a Navmesh area lets say green box that the npcs wouldn't walk throw. Then I would place a characterController and add a script to message server if player has walked into it for a simple example.

What the Player sees
In game turns Bob the warrior walks towards the Dungeon Door of Doom. To his surprise as he reaches the door the two statues around him come to life attacking.

What going on behind sence PlayerA touches characterController0872 apon being Touched characterController0872 runs script Livestatues. The script removes the characterController from game for 5 minutes then respawns it in same location. It also loads up to prefab mobs at location x0y0 or were ever.

As I said that is just one way I would approach the problem it all depends on how they set it up.

 

Sorry to say but i didn't attack anyone here and please read what i have said before.

I am just tired to see assets release in a hurry to make a quick buck when it is not finish and advertize as the holy grail of MMO kit.

Way to many assets here are very close to a scam and indie developers have almost no way to see if an asset will fit their need since most asset don't even give you a simple trial and this say a lot about it.

The asset store should refuse any product release with improper documentation period.

 

Really considering to buy this, it looks so good.

I just want to know these things:
-Are there GM commands that GMs can use inside of the game, and not only inside the Unity Editor?
-What are the GM commands if any (for in the client, not the Unity Editor only)?
-How easy will it be to update the engine when a new version comes out?
-Are updates free?

Really, really nice looking kit! Keep up the good work.

 

Here is info:

- Yes there is GM commands inside the game and you can add your own in as well.
- Currently we have the following:
Press Enter to access the chat box and type your command as posted:
- /goto spawn (teleports you to spawn point)
- /changeInstance name (name is exact instance name)
- /generateItem # (# is item number set in Item Plugin)
- /loc (gets your location or someone you have targeted)
- /who (Shows who is online)
- /w name message (name is the persons name you want to whisper to)
- /whisper name message (name is the persons name you want to whisper to)
- /props (shows all your properties or the person targeted)
- /release (releases you from death state)
- /orient (shows orientation of you or target)

Updating is easy, just change new files and we tell you which ones to do. You also get all updates for free.

 

while Updating is Easy IF you haven't done anything to customize the Atavism Files if you have though it's extremely hard to update... I would suggest making copies of any script you customize and make notes of where and what you are customizing Then use your customized Copy instead of the default atavism file. I would also keep a Journal or Log of the file and line number of all of your customization so that you can easily find them in the future. With Atavism under going such massive Development at the moment you can't count on things staying the same so your customization to the scripts may or may not work from update to update.

 

Alright, looks really good. Good job, Atavism/NeoJac team!
Thanks cookimage for the info!

And @JamesPro: I learned the hard way that you need to keep backups, always. I also always comment my code with stuff like this:

//------------ Player Movement below ------- | -------- Variables above -----------
//------------ Prototype functions below ----- | ------ Player movement above ---------

So I think I'll be able to find it inbetween all the other code
And yes they're still heavily developing it; but if I buy the kit now, and just build levels for example, by the time I'm done with building levels the kit would already be out (most likely)

 

I would ask this in the AtVoxel thread but that one seems to be dead. So for anyone using AtVoxel, could you check if Aron Granbergs A* library can be integrated? It shouldn't take more than a few minutes. AtVoxel seems great for the price, but it is absolutely crucial for me to have high quality pathfinding. I got Aron's A* working with Voxeland but not with Cubiquity, so it seems to be hit or miss with voxel engines.

These are the steps:
- Get the free version of A*: http://arongranberg.com/astar/download
- Import the files into a scene with any type of terrain.
- Create an empty GameObject and add the pathfinding -> pathfinder component to it.
- Click "Add new graph" -> "grid graph" under the pathfinder component.
- Click the grey bar next to "grid graph" to expand.
- Adjust the width, depth and center numbers to place the grid below a piece of terrain.
- Click the "scan" button at the bottom.
- If there was a grid pattern created across the terrain then it should work. If there is nothing or there are only red cubes then it doesn't work.

Also, did I understand it right that I need to buy Atavism for AtVoxel to work?

 

Any Pathfinding SHOULD be done Server Side and that feature isn't done yet SO pathfinding currently isn't possible...

 

AtVoxel will have a stand alone version also which does not relay on Atavism and should work with other packages from Unity. It would depend on how your mobs are placed for path finding.AtVoxel generates its terrain on the fly with different levels of detail so you can see it far away and it has no limit in size like minecraft.

 

Thank you. So currently there is no standalone version of AtVoxel then?

Is it possible to create my own terrains in the editor or at least change the parameters for terrain generation? I'm planning to create a single player management game similar to Banished and my landscapes will be relatively small but need to be pretty detailed.

 

AtVoxel is still very early stages of Alpha. It is still lacking the ability for very high detail but we are working on that. You can currently create a biom with some details to it. It is designed to create a massive world so unlike other voxel systems we have to look very closely to frame rate. It has a standalone setup as well, we just haven't added it to our store version, but will be doing that very soon.

 

No news on the Asset store release?

 

We had to remove the demo setup with AGF which we have done now and replaced the MainWorld with Unity Terrain.

 

Cool, was just curious as it seemed to have been taking a long time.

 

Minecraft actually ends at 30 Million (I think) in x & y. Look up minecraft's "farlands"

 

New Blog section added to our website where we will be doing Blog posts on a regular basis to keep all up to date on progress with Atavism.

http://www.atavismonline.com/home/root/gnunews/atavism-blog

 

Atavism is released on unity Asset store:

 

wow, is this a joke? You are releasing something that isn´t even really a beta and can´t do half the things you talk about? Doesn´t come with full documentation and doesn´t have a live demo MMO to show that it even works at all? Does the Unity store not even look at what they allow?

 

Actually it does have documentation and we have videos showing it in action. Reading from your post I am pretty sure you don't own it so am not sure how you can make a statement without any knowledge of the product.

 

lol Atavism IS a joke though... And you telling people on your forum that AtVoxel is the ONLY Voxel engine available that can handle a unlimited sized world unless you want to license EQ:N's Voxel Engine is a flat out lie and you know it!

 

How exciting, Jacques! I have not been following lately but does this mean server side collision and authoritative server is up and running as well! I will have to check it out. Thanks for the news!

 

No server side stuff yet. I like the description that makes it sound like a completed asset and states you can build a game in the matter of weeks. And the mention of the Unistorm plugin that has not been released and is made by someone he banned is classic.

Still no assets or even news of them even though he has hinted that some were being ready for release. And documentation is still lacking, and what is there is vague an fairly useless for the most part

If I could get my money back I would, but of course they refuse to do refunds.

 

The UniStorm Plugin IS done and ready to be released... I've just been waiting for the Plugin Store to be released which we were promised would be released months ago and still no sign of it.

 

A 2-line readme is technically documentation.... so yeah, congratulations for passing the lowest bar possible. But anyone in development knows you need COMPLETE documentation for everything that is currently live. When something new gets added, it should come with complete documentation for that new feature.

And really, what Warborn said is my problem. What is in this product currently is NOT what is being advertised. What you are selling is the idea that someone can buy your product today and make a MMORPG... and that is not true. What you are selling is a half-finished product that may or may not be completed a year or two from now based on your ever changing roadmap.

 

That just proves my point Cave_Online that you have no idea what Atavism is or have even looked at the documentation as our wiki consists of over 25 pages of documentation. Please stop Trolling a product you have no knowledge about

 

Jacques give it up all ready... STOP freaking thinking everyone is trolling you and for crying out loud LISTEN for once to what people are telling you. Stop your false advertising of your product and level with your potential customer base... Like people are saying in it's current state it is impossible to pick up Atavism and create a game that even resembles a decent MMO. And to be saying you can create a MMO in a couple weeks is a complete lie. MAYBE in it's finished state you will be able to create a simple small scale MMO in a couple weeks or at the very least a decent Prototype but you sure as heck can't do that now so don't freaking advertise that you can.

 

Just read your Blog post concerning the Nav Meshes... Just reading through it once and discussing it on Skype we see some HUGE issues with the way you are implementing it based on the blog post... The Nav Meshes are static... You create them in the Unity Editor and then add them to the Server before starting the Server... How about players adding Buildings, walls, ect. to the world during Game play? Is the Nav Mesh updated or is your player movement going to be completely messed up by adding objects at run time?

Also you STILL aren't allowing a true representation of the world... A Nav Mesh is hardly a True Representation of the world. It just tells a player where they can or can't walk... But how about Triggers, Flags, and other things that need to be setup in the world on the Server?

Based on your NavMesh solution it appears you aren't going with true Collision Detection... So again how about Server Side Triggers and other Game Play Features that depend on Server side Collision... You could do collision on the Client and send it to the Server however it's prone to hacking that way and so isn't a viable option...

 

James please read the whole blog post before you go on the ranting, this is a direct section from it:

"Following on from the first release of the system we will be continuing work on optimization and adding support for dynamic modifications to the NavMesh (to support world building)."

Like always you amuse me with your posts, where you said a couple post back you will never sell your plugins on Atavism Store here is a direct clip "Any sales for those plugins will be made directly with me through Paypal or perhaps through the Unity Asset Store but will in no way be linked to NeoJac Entertainment or supported by them" Then you say just 8 posts above this one " lol Atavism IS a joke though..." and really two post later you say " The UniStorm Plugin IS done and ready to be released... I've just been waiting for the Plugin Store to be released which we were promised would be released months ago and still no sign of it." Seems you keep change how you feel about something in matter of second, so what is it, Atavism is a Joke or is it good enough for you to sell your plugin on.

The advertizing you are complaining about is set for people who uses the current plugins and not write their own plugins. Currently every single plugin we have there works good and does exactly what it says. If you are writing your own plugins it will for sure take longer to make your MMO as you are coding all your systems over.

If you go to our forum you will see we are listening to people as we have been working hard to better communication.

 

Wait...does this mean no collision detection? What about the authoritative server? We spent hundreds of dollars for those rather than go with a simpler system. So what happened. This makes me sad since we were reconsidering our decision not to use Atavism after the store release. I thought maybe things were getting better. Could you please explain? Are you really leaving them out?

 

First of all that was in NO way a Rant... But Believe me if you want to see a true rant I can show you what one looks like... I was asking simple questions to get you guys to think about stuff and to try and clarify what it is you are attempting to do here... Maybe you didn't notice but there were question marks after a lot of those questions I asked...

Now since I have no issue being honest at all I did in fact miss that line talking about going back and adding in support for Dynamic NavMeshes... That's good to hear that you guys will be addressing that concern. Though the rest of it remains. Why not implement a true Collision Detection system instead of some half baked Nav Mesh solution which really seems to me to be a lazy way out of it. Collision Detection is used for so much and sooner or later you will have no choice but to implement it if you really want to compete with other viable MMO Solutions...

 

There is a lot of misinformation and rumours being spread around about what we are and aren't doing. I will clarify below...

1) We are still going to have an authoritative server. Currently all actions except movement are managed by the server, and during Q4 this year player movement will be authoritative as well.

2) We will be adding in Volumetric regions for collision detection triggers and events. I will be looking at incorporating that into our customised NavMesh solution, so it's all baked into the same data. There will be waypoints/markers available as well in the future.

3) Dynamic updating of the servers knowledge of the world will be added some time after the first release of our pathfinding and authoritative server systems.

4) Player-player / player-mob collisions can be added in the future if we feel there is enough interest in it, but the general rule in MMO's is to not have that added in (ESO is a recent example of this).

I am happy to answer any other questions that you guys have here about this stuff. I will be posting this to our own forum as well.

 

Hello there seems to be a bit of negativity on this thread but it does seem to be limited to a few things so I thought it best just to as my own questions and see what everyone has to say.

So I have heard a few people claim the kit is not completed or close to, in what sort of state is the kit currently in, in otherwords what is it stopping me from creating a simple game using this kit to prototype with for example character creation with classes, player joins the world can see other players, can level up and do maybe an instance with friends without having to fix up any code myself.
From what I have read this should be easy with this kit but this threat and the older one have got me a little concerned before I click buy, I have some programming background but I am no way on the level of someone who could create a project like this alone.

- This is aimed at both the devs and anyone who has used the kit

Secondly if I buy through this asset store is there a way I can claim a download on your site as well just I have had a few problems with the asset store before and I would prefer to have the option to download from both sources.

- This of course is just aimed at the devs

Thanks for any ones time who can help me out, I apologise if this is a fairly simple question just the negative posts have got me a little concerned of course

 

Andrew you always seemed to be a great guy and knew what you were doing... However you and Jacques telling people that most all MMOs only use NavMeshes is completely false... Most MMO Engines I know of have full Physics on the Server:
http://wiki.heroengine.com/wiki/Physics_Server

NavMeshes are used for Path Finding... How do you expect to use WASD movement with Path Finding? In Path Finding you need to know your starting location and a Location your traveling to then the path finding selects the best route to the location your going to... With WASD Movement you don't know the final location where the player is attempting to go to so how can a Path Finding / NavMesh solution even work here unless your switching to point and click movement...

Also with out a full Collision Detection System your unable to have any sort of Combat System that requires the player to aim their shots unless you allow the Client to handle it which again leads to hacking...

 

99% of the problems you guys have are bad communication. I spent some time last night talking with Cookimage last night on Skype. According to him, and I can copy and paste the conversation if my interpretation makes no sense to you, Atavism already has Authoritative server and yet you say Q4. Also, there was no mention of Volumetric regions, just of a navmesh.

When I purchased the Developer's Pack for over $300, I was given a list of features. That is what I paid for and what I want. I get that things are delayed. I get that things change. But two things are very important and you guys know it.

I would like to know whether WoW and other games actually have collision detection on their servers other than some Navmesh and based on my conversation last night, I am not sure Cookimage has a good grasp of this stuff. I am not asking for full physics but I want to prevent my players from cheating. That is why I chose Atavism over other solutions. That is what we were told we would get.

I am going to share the conversation we had with some programmers I know that are more experienced with this stuff, not involved with Atavism. I am curious. I feel as if the Atavism people prey on those of us with limited knowledge. Maybe not, but it is difficult to trust when you are constantly getting different answers to questions and they seem to contradict conventional wisdom on this stuff.

James makes a really good point though. What if I want my bows to aim? What about falling? Will my characters take damage? Will players walk through each other? Will I have to set up triggers and collision events for every little thing? How easy will it be for characters to hack this? Again, not asking for a full physics engine.

 

Congratulations on finally releasing Atavism on the Unity Asset store! I've been watching this project develop for some time and this marks an important milestone in your system's development.

I think $70 is a good entry level price allowing people to try their hand at making basic MMOs. I hope you are excited about continuing the development and don't become discouraged.

Is there a demo I can play of a game using Atavism? Even better, would Neojac consider hosting a game in a test world where we could meet with the developers at a scheduled time? Playing MMOs alone is lonely and not a real test of the software.

 

Firstly I have to make sure everyone understands in no way is things a final version, as you all know when developing you put something in action and then test it and over time it will most likely change totally. Now I myself am no programer so I pick the knowledge up just like you would Teila so it is good I don't have a good grasp of things as it makes sure that if I can understand how it gets explained with my limited knowledge by our programers others on the same programing skill level should to. Seeing allot talk is about combat, here is a perfect video showing different types of combat styles there is in the MMO industry which is 3 types, tab targeting, soft targeting and twitch based. Just twitch based combat requires a full physic system on server side as far as my understanding is is the worst type of combat for a full MMO that has a big world.

Like I was explaining last night and maybe James can correct me if I am wrong, there is a few things needed for a authoritative server. One is the server must control actions and information like item information, sending of skills and abilities info and so forth so that the players cant hack those things on the client side. The second thing is secure login system witch authorizes a player access to the game world and the third part is movement , being it player movement or mob movement. The first two parts has been in Atavism from the start as all those things like information sending and login system is controlled by the server and the database, the third part is being implemented now with our collusion/nave mesh system we are implementing. So Atavism is not as fully authoritative yet as it needs to be as it needs the third part to be a total authoritative server which is why we have put it in the road map as still coming. But most of it is implemented already when it comes to things like items , quests, stats and so forth.

As what I have learned putting a full physic system server side will use a massive amount of resources on the machines which you have your servers on which means that developers using atavism will have to spend a huge amount of money on their server machines to use atavism, it also limits the size of your world unless you have a bunch of hardware machines to run small sections of your world like Hero Engine does and once again putting the cost of hardware way a both small indie development companies and that's the biggest reason we do not want to go full physic server side as we are developing it for indie companies in mind.

Now to answer a few of your questions best I can Teila:
What about falling?
From my understanding falling will not be any problem as the nav mesh generates everywhere where a player can be and he will always fall on a area where you can be. To break it down some more, say you have a cube in your world the nav mesh generates accessible areas around the cube edges and on the top of the cube. The server knows when you are falling there is no place to land on the side as there is no area to move there so your character will fall down the side of it.
Will my characters take damage?
I gather you mean damage from falling, that has nothing to do with server collusion as such i would think as it can be coded in with your y direction you are moving and speed you are moving. Same way its set to play the falling animation when you fall. Even with a full physic system you still have to code damage in.
Will players walk through each other?
That is done by code as well. We actually have had a release where players could not walk through each other and changed it as most MMO's don't have it that players do walk through each other.
Will I have to set up triggers and collision events for every little thing?
Can you clarify more on this question, as even with a full physic system you still have to setup collusion events.
How easy will it be for characters to hack this?
It will be pretty hard to hack this system from my understanding as everything is controlled by the server, but nothing is UN-hackable no matter what type of system you have.

I hope that helped out a bit.

 

We are working on Neos Land our own MMO and will be having a test weekend soon which we will be looking at making it open to all to test for the weekend and will announce it here so we can get as many people in as possible.

 

So all the plugins you see on our list if fully functional so everything there you can use right now. That includes character creation with classes, player joins the world can see other players, can level up and do maybe an instance with friends without having to fix up any code.

" Secondly if I buy through this asset store is there a way I can claim a download on your site as well just I have had a few problems with the asset store before and I would prefer to have the option to download from both sources."

Unfortunately we can have both downloads from asset store as well as our own store at this stage. We can look into something like that in the future. Best bet is from our own store as you don't have to wait the 3 days or more for updates that it takes for Unity to accept changes.

 

James can you maybe clarify why you guys stopped using Hero Engine, I am interested to know why.

 

I can't speak for James, but I know a number of people who started with Hero Engine and then stopped. Many were not fond of the programming language or found it cumbersome. The only people who recommended Hero Engine to us did so because Hero Engine provided hosting for MMO's. Other than that, it was far down on the list.

I think choice of engine is a personal thing. It depends on your proficiency with various programming languages, the learning curve of product, how easy it is to modify, and if it does what you need it to do for your particular game.

After our experience with a couple of engines, I actually would prefer one with source code provided. It makes it much easier to modify. The lack of source code makes engines like Atavism and Alk, less attractive, in my humble opinion. Since so often developers drop projects, having the source allows you to continue development for years to come. Not having it is a risk. We must each evaluate our own risk factors.