Search Unity

  1. Megacity Metro Demo now available. Download now.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Unity support for visionOS is now available. Learn more in our blog post.
    Dismiss Notice

Ashes Of Creation MMORPG

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by richardh, May 4, 2017.

  1. richardh

    richardh

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Posts:
    226
  2. Teila

    Teila

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Posts:
    6,932
    Looks like another game made by a group of former AAA developers who will probably make a bundle on Kickstarter. I see a few cool special stuff, but too bad they stuck with the archetypes of all fantasy games.
     
    Ryiah likes this.
  3. HemiMG

    HemiMG

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    911
    With over $1 million in three days, they may set a record on Kickstarter. They must have had a crazy large following prior to launching to get that kind of money. Unless maybe a bunch of huge outlets covered it. I'm too busy to keep track of such things, so I suppose the project could be very well known even if I've just heard of it.
     
  4. Teila

    Teila

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Posts:
    6,932
    It is not hard for AAA developers to get that kind of money. It is the indies who people no longer trust.
     
    ZJP likes this.
  5. Whippets

    Whippets

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2013
    Posts:
    1,775
    Is it made with Unity?
     
    Rodolfo-Rubens likes this.
  6. ToshoDaimos

    ToshoDaimos

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2013
    Posts:
    679
    1m is nothing for an MMO. Shovel Knight got 300k and it was peanuts for their mighty 6-man team.
     
  7. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    20,952
    Oldest news articles appear to be January with a Facebook page as far back as September. I'm going to chalk up their success more to the presence of highly active MMO news sources. People are constantly on the look out for new MMOs regardless of whether they offer a truly new experience or not.

    My own experience with MMOs was with a gaming community that would regularly jump ship to a new one every few months with the goal of quickly leveling beyond the majority of the player base and dominating PvP. My favorite memory is of the Aion Kaisinel server where our defunct faction kept second place months after we left.
     
  8. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2013
    Posts:
    16,860
    A million doesn't seem like much for an MMO. That's enough to keep a dozen or so people in work for a year. Is that all it take to do an MMO these days?
     
    wccrawford likes this.
  9. Teila

    Teila

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Posts:
    6,932
    With their contacts, they probably have a ton of investors as well. Kickstarter is more a way to build a community and get people invested so they play the game when it comes out.
     
  10. HemiMG

    HemiMG

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Posts:
    911
    Yeah, when I said over a million in three days was a lot, I meant relative to Kickstarter, not relative to the budget of MMO games. Their goal was less than a million, so I'm assuming they have funding outside of KS as well.
     
    Kiwasi likes this.
  11. Murgilod

    Murgilod

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Posts:
    10,083
    Yep, Kickstarter is also being used as a way to give investors a way to gauge interest in a project lately, a practice I'm not totally in love with as it gives people a really warped perception of how much games cost to make.
     
    Teila, passerbycmc, Billy4184 and 4 others like this.
  12. ChazBass

    ChazBass

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2013
    Posts:
    153
    Considering the world already has way more MMO's than players to play them, this is truly amazing. And I definitely agree that $1M isn't even close to enough money to make something good if the goal is to actually win players away from other games. Need probably 10 times that, before marketing.
     
  13. Meltdown

    Meltdown

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Posts:
    5,816
    UE 4
     
  14. Billy4184

    Billy4184

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Posts:
    6,008
    It's hard to tell what they mean exactly, but apparently the game world is supposed to be very reactive/interactive compared to other MMOs. At least, that seems to be the unique selling point of this game.
     
  15. Meltdown

    Meltdown

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Posts:
    5,816
    Did you watch the Kickstarter video? That goes into more detail.
     
    Billy4184 likes this.
  16. Tzan

    Tzan

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Posts:
    733
    I worked at Turbine in 2004 and proposed having a world that reacted in meaningful ways to player actions.
    I didnt just say that vague sentence, I actually had real game mechanics written down to illustrate how to do it.
    No MMO has really done this yet. They of course ignored me.

    What these guys are saying is the high level stuff.
    It really depends on what they can actually show as game mechanics.
     
    CarterG81, Teila, Ryiah and 1 other person like this.
  17. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    20,952
    Have you ever presented the idea to anyone else?

    It's a miracle they managed to create a game like DDO. It's only recently that they managed to fix the bulk of the exploits (item duplication, experience potion reuse, etc). There are still plenty of broken mechanics and some of the ladders in some of the dungeons are still misbehaving (go to climb them and they reset you back down at the bottom).
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
  18. zenGarden

    zenGarden

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Posts:
    4,538
    Another generic mmo :rolleyes:
     
    Teila likes this.
  19. Teila

    Teila

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Posts:
    6,932
    And that is the sad thing. They have the talent, the money, (I am convinced they probably have investors outside of kickstarter) and yet they make the same old sort of MMO that everyone else does.
     
    zoran404 likes this.
  20. zenGarden

    zenGarden

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Posts:
    4,538
    They stay on prooven grounds, mmo is risky because it involves lot of money and success is based on players keeping coming back to the game. They simply follow what has been made thousand of times in mmos.
    Anyway it's perhaps due to the genre and we should not expect something extraordinary from mmo side.
     
  21. Tzan

    Tzan

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Posts:
    733
    From the mid 1980's to the mid 2000's I interviewed in person at least 20 times.
    When doing that you need to talk about whatever you've got going on in your head.
    My resume seemed interesting enough to get the interview but I never got the job.

    Turbine hired me to do testing at $20k, 3 months later I interviewed for and got transferred to be a content creator on LOTRO, 24k. As an architectural designer it was easy, creative and fun work and what I was doing was better than what established people there were doing. Some were not really artistic and suited to the job of creating 3 dimensional space. I will say that most people there were totally awesome at what they did.

    As an hourly employee they wanted me to work overtime for free, which is illegal.
    After 9.5 months they dumped me because of that and they would need to pay me like a human with benefits at 10 months at a higher rate.

    I have also designed over 40 board games, play tested 15 of them.
    Board game companies don't want to even see your ideas because they have ideas too and if they make one that's similar to yours, they don't want to get sued.

    Playing as a monster is something I discussed with people back in 2002.
    And again at Turbine in 2004.

    Everyone has ideas and most people you talk to think their ideas are best.
    The person you are usually talking to ( outside of an interview ), is an HR person, or at least not creative, or not a decision maker.
    So its a waste of breath. I've beaten my head on the door, I'm just happy now that I can do whatever I want with Unity.
    [/unity_marketing]


    I know a guy who worked to program Battle.net back in the 90's.
    In the 2000's he worked at Sun Microsystems and was allowed to work on a server technology that solved all the typical MMO problems. They marketed this to the industry including EA. They all ignored it so they could continue to roll their own. He did end up working at World Winner (I think) for a while and used a version of it for some non-persistent games. He currently teaches at a college.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
    Meltdown, Teila and Ryiah like this.
  22. Teila

    Teila

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Posts:
    6,932
    Having heard a few of your ideas in the past, I think you have some great ones. :)
     
  23. Tzan

    Tzan

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Posts:
    733
    Thanks :)
     
    Joviex and Teila like this.
  24. theANMATOR2b

    theANMATOR2b

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2014
    Posts:
    7,790
    I found it interesting in the video the non-verbals the person speaking has when he is talking (at 2:23) about giving opportunity to the public to participate in the discussions of design. o_O

    Graphics look nice. Concept seems interesting - too bad I'm not into MMOs.
     
  25. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    15,614
    • The game looks cool.
    • I'm not dissuaded by the use of classic archetypes or races if the game brings something new, which the node system quite possibly does. If the node system is cool then I don't need to be discovering a bunch of new crazy races, or figuring out how a bunch of non-standard classes fit together. I'm totally ok with them picking one area to do crazy new stuff in and sticking to classics elsewhere. And I'd rather that they focused on getting one thing right than spreading themselves thin elsewhere just for the sake of being more different where it matters less.
    • The idea of rebuilding civilisation in a reactive world that's actively trying to curb your efforts is pretty cool, and it's an idea that uniquely fits with MMO gameplay. It's a thing I can totally see banding together with a bunch of mates to do, that wouldn't be as cool otherwise, and takes advantage of social and team play. Also, unlike the designs of many other MMOs, it doesn't even slightly rely on every single darn one of us all simultaneously being "The Chosen One" (or otherwise a person who's somehow both "special" and also "exactly the same as everyone else").
    • The monthly subscription, for pre-purchases no less, is nearly twice as much as the monthly sub for WoW? That seems a little excessive to me, especially considering how quickly most MMOs seem to be dropping their monthly subs these days.
    • Their team roster shows lots of designers and artists, and a grand total of one technical person who's not necessarily a programmer. So... who's going to code this monster of a game?
     
  26. zenGarden

    zenGarden

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Posts:
    4,538
    Perhaps this is a way to try generate some money before becoming a F2P ? (Star Wars, WildStar etc ...)
    I expect more about buying a game one time, pay annual big content updates and have some cool cosmetic shop.
    This is the way it is done in Guild Wars 2, Black Desert.
    Some games proposes a correct F2P and a monthly subscription , the F2P side allowing money income throught in game shops.

    Perhaps this is Delegated to some external team.
     
  27. richardh

    richardh

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Posts:
    226
    As at this time (13:10 Monday 8th May) it's nearly at the $1.5m point. Doing well.
     
  28. Martin_H

    Martin_H

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2015
    Posts:
    4,436
    Which companies exactly did you try to approach and when/how did you do it? Afaik the majority of German-style boardgames are designed by independant game authors that then pitch their games to publishers. I can only speak for the German publishers, but for them it is less common that they design games in-house. It happens, but I'd say it's considerably less than 50% of what they publish.
     
  29. Tzan

    Tzan

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Posts:
    733
    I contacted several in the 90's, like Steve Jackson.
    SJ did have a submission guidelines thing they sent me in the mail.
    The others didn't want to hear it.

    Making a board game is just as difficult as making a computer game.
    So while I did a lot of work on it, I don't think even the games we tested were worthy of being published.
    At least not yet, more testing required.
    Maybe I'm just to critical of my own work. I don't think that's a bad thing.
    Too many people think too highly of themselves.

    Getting testers is hard, if you can get a group one or two times in a month, that's good.
    Now think about how many times you test a computer game.
    Every play of a board game reveals new problems, and the iteration time is just huge.
    We all have jobs and families.
    The only way to refine it is to play and eventually volunteer testers lose interest.

    I stopped working on board games in the early 2000's.
    I still have a few interesting designs I wouldn't mind testing, I have the bits made, but then I'm not programming.

    edit: Avalon Hill was another, they very rarely used designs from outside. Maybe just 2.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
    CarterG81 likes this.
  30. Martin_H

    Martin_H

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2015
    Posts:
    4,436
    Ah, I see. Might be a different market today than in the 90's. I agree about how hard it is to make good boardgames and test them sufficiently. Definitely not an easy thing to pull off. There aren't many boardgame authors that are able to live just from making games.
     
  31. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    20,952
    I'd be surprised if that were the actual subscription cost. One thing to note about many MMOs that claim not to be P2W is that they aren't saying they don't have a cash shop. They're just saying it doesn't affect gameplay. Looking at the first tier I'd imagine some of the rewards listed (chat emoji, character customization, etc) are going to be in the cash shop too.
     
    Martin_H likes this.
  32. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    15,614
    I get that, it's just that the reward tiers all come with some months of gameplay. And looking at the cheapest tier, that month of gameplay costs significantly more than a month of WoW. For pre-purchase investors (I know Kickstarter is very specific about them not being "investors" in a financial sense, but it's a fit by other definitions) I'd expect it to be cheaper rather than more expensive, regardless of what other digital goods it might come with.

    Anyhow, that's just how I see the value proposition there. Their target market may well see things very differently.
     
  33. Tzan

    Tzan

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Posts:
    733
    When many other MMOs get released the retail price is $60 and it explicitly indicates that it includes 1 month of use.
    They also usually have listed what the monthly price is, its not the same.
    There are certainly many things they need to explain, but they have time.
     
    angrypenguin likes this.
  34. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    20,952
    There are more costs associated with World of Warcraft than just the subscription. A new player, at least as far as I'm aware, has to buy the base game (which now includes most expansions and a month of game time) for $19.99.

    https://us.battle.net/shop/en/product/world-of-warcraft

    Then if you want the Legion expansion (which appears to not include additional game time) that's $49.99.

    https://us.battle.net/shop/en/product/world-of-warcraft-legion
     
    angrypenguin likes this.
  35. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    15,614
    Ahh, of course. In that case the pricing does seem a lot more reasonable for its market, then.
     
  36. CarterG81

    CarterG81

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2013
    Posts:
    1,773
    Did you even watch the video before writing them off as a generic mmo?

    Most of the time the links to new MMO's, especially on crowdfunding sites, are exactly this. However skipping through the video - it seems they have some pretty new & different things that set this game apart from all other MMO's. Although I didn't view enough to elaborate on the details... it definitely doesn't come across immediately as "Generic MMO".
     
  37. CarterG81

    CarterG81

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2013
    Posts:
    1,773
    Steve Jackson is so awesome.

    I like the discussion of board games & similarities of them & video games.

    It's actually how I tell if someone is, IMO, a "Real" Game Designer. If they can or at least show interest in designing board or card games - not just video games? Legit. That is because game design has less to do with video games & more to do with games (of all kinds) than most gamedevs seem to realize.

    I have a solid argument for why I have this opinion though. A lot of game design involves history of game systems... just knowing what's already out there. What works. What doesn't. When designing a video game...To exclude the lessons of design from some of the best board games is heresy in my mind. And I've always been interested in making something akin to "Pen & Paper RPG: The Video Game". Something far more "video game" than something like a tabletop simulator. Something which involves the awesome animations & audio of video games, and is still mostly a video game, but in the tabletop/boardgame spirit, freedom of story, and GM direction.

    Unfortunately it's unlikely to happen until we just bypass all of our current tech by skipping to AR boardgames or even further with some kindof advanced AI that finally lets us have an automated dungeon master.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  38. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    15,614
    Neverwinter Nights kind of sort of vaguely did something like this, which actually lead to one of my coolest online gaming experiences.

    When running a server, someone can join a game as a Dungeon Master instead of as a player. That person can control NPCs, spawn enemies, place items, award XP, and generally provide for rich player interaction with the world... because you are directly interacting with players, rather than leaving them with a bunch of pre-scripted events. There were plenty of limitations, such as having to assemble maps and such in advance, but there's still plenty of cool stuff you can do.

    Yeah, to me it's more about "interactive design" than it is about "game design". After all, game design is just a subset of interactive design where we're making stuff that's entertaining.
     
    CarterG81 likes this.
  39. Tzan

    Tzan

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Posts:
    733
    When ever I talk with someone about game design and they complain about programming, 3d art, 2d art, etc... I tell them to make a board game. All you need is a brain, a stack of paper, a pen. If you feel super fancy you can use photoshop to do some art, print it and cut it out. Or just use parts from some of the 30 other board games you own. You own board games right?
    You really learn a lot from just pumping out board game ideas and testing some of them.
     
    CarterG81 and Martin_H like this.
  40. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    15,614
    Even when I'm making actual video games I often think of things in board-game like ways. For instance, I often use the idea of having a "deck" of items, events, characters, etc.

    I also find it a really good way to think about complex problems, because it helps you break them into broad pieces that describe the interactions rather than visual representations. Once you've described the interactions you can often think of fairly simple ways to plug those into a scene in a video game, because you've already had to strip out a bunch of extraneous stuff. (Hand of Fate has some simple but direct examples of this, in its fight sequences where the scenario details are determined by cards drawn or in decks.)
     
    theANMATOR2b likes this.
  41. zenGarden

    zenGarden

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Posts:
    4,538
    Yep, i watched, nothing that hypes me despite the good ideas.
     
  42. theANMATOR2b

    theANMATOR2b

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2014
    Posts:
    7,790
    Blueprints FTW?
    Joking smiley - o_O
     
  43. CarterG81

    CarterG81

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2013
    Posts:
    1,773
    Sure, but by definition don't their new ideas contradict the claim it's generic?
     
  44. Raven000

    Raven000

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Posts:
    9
    I would say they already have money before the kickstarter even started. Someone here mentioned that this could be just simply an attempt to build a community, and with the ads and content that they already have in place, I would agree.
     
    Teila and CarterG81 like this.
  45. RoadhouseRex

    RoadhouseRex

    Joined:
    May 30, 2017
    Posts:
    1
    Well, to clarify, the budget is 30 to 35 million, which is coming mostly from the Developer himself, Steven Sharif (pretty wealthy guy) who has set aside 30 million of his own funds for the project, As of the typing of this post, the kickstarter campaign has surpassed 2.7 million with 15,550 backers. Which has done better than Chronicles of Elyria, a comparable "New MMO". I am excited for this change of pace in a game genre, Pay to Win is a cancer in the gaming community. Any Developer who wants to change the status quo and introduce new ideas should be welcomed irregardless of what game engine they are using. Even slight changes in a Genre of games that has become different skins, same grind, same engine should be welcomed by the gaming community. What good is having a sleek new game engine if you are just revamping the markets current cud? Plus the current long term MMO's are just cash grab machines. LOTRO just celebrated it's10 year anniversary, players are expecting an expansion and the game is still running the same hardware they had 5 years ago. They haven't fixed the core game (laggy in the new areas, it crashes randomly) and are building on a rotten foundation. Most gamers i know are just fed up with this mentality, especially the subscribers to the "free to play" game, but they are cautious since the over-hyped No Man's Sky disaster. Which, btw grossed 78 million as of 2016, so pair the game price point with a 15 dollar a month subscription fee, the tons of players who are waiting out the hype train and this game has a lot of income potential, especially since they have promised to never go pay to win. The backers, who have pledged the $400.00 + package that comes with a lifetime subscription, plus the ability to refer players and earn income of those folks who sign up, it seems to be a pretty win win no matter what, despite the folks calling it a pyramid scheme (which has been debunked). The best analogy for the free to play games on the market is this. Free to play is like a spaghetti dinner, You get the pasta for free, sauce is available to subscribers, meatballs, garlic bread and a fork are available in the store.

    All of you guys have a great day and happy coding / developing and may all of your endeavors be successful. :)
     
  46. Teila

    Teila

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Posts:
    6,932
    Years ago I worked on an MMO project that did just this. It turned out to be a disaster, mostly because if you give the public too much power over the design, you will end up having to disappoint many and some do not take that lightly. I think every day I had to tell someone that the ability to do that particular thing was simply not possible (this was a long time ago, remember?). Keeping a design focused when you have 100k people trying to tell you what they absolutely needed to have in a game is really difficult.

    Having the community involved is great but publicly stating that they could influence the design may come back to bite them. Of course, that may just be talk and in the end their design will change only a small amount. :)
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
    theANMATOR2b, Socrates and Martin_H like this.
  47. Teila

    Teila

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Posts:
    6,932
    I agree with this. There are a number of well funded MMOs coming out that seem to be changing the way they are played. It is about time. I wish they would do more than lip service to the ability to play without combat though. Otherwise, I think the future looks good for experimenting with more than the old MMO mechanics.

    One thing about being independent, regardless of whether it is a wealthy developer investing in his game or a lone developer making a small MMO, we have the ability to experiment without shareholders and company breathing down our neck. We can take risks.
     
    theANMATOR2b likes this.
  48. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    20,952
    Agreed. Crowd funding is just another marketing tactic now and one that allows you to acquire your pre-orders before people would have rationally chosen to pre-order in the past. If there is enough interest you may even be able to continue receiving funds post-campaign.

    After conversing with a fellow gaming buddy we both ended up pledging to the Kickstarter.
     
  49. Teila

    Teila

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Posts:
    6,932
  50. theANMATOR2b

    theANMATOR2b

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2014
    Posts:
    7,790
    Which is probably the case based on the non-verbals I commented on. :D Shifty eyes.
    But either way - I wish them all the luck - MMO's are such a daunting goal to shoot for.
     
    Teila likes this.