Are you tired of saying "sorry, that isn't available in the free version"?

I didn't say using pro is stupid, I said if you need shadows to make your game "good" then you are obviously not making a good game beneath that.

All those games were made with 100k - multimillion dollar budgets... As well as being inherently well made. Shadows don't make the game, they add to it. If you can't make a good game in free, you probably cant make a good one in Pro.

Of course it would be nice to have all the pro features in free, but Unity has to make money to keep going. When I bought pro I was even a little unsure due to the lack of extra features... Unity is fully within it's rights to do this.

I sincerely doubt UT will add a splash free license, but who knows? As I said earlier, it is easier to make the money for pro than you think.

 

Are people complaining about the watermark now too?! Go startup a game made with the Unreal engine. The first screen you see is something to do with being made with Unreal. Hell any other game for that matter, just fade in your company logo after it. Herp derp.

 

Yes, I realize that's what you said. That's what I said you said. Now re-read my response. If someone wants their game to be as "realistic" as possible they're going to want need real-time shadows. If Shigeru Miyamoto decides that his new Mario game needs to have real-time shadows, your reasoning says he's "obviously not making a good game."

No, shadows don't make a game good, but the lack of shadows CAN make a game bad. Imagine all those games I listed (in the previous post) without shadows. The reviews would look something like this:

Finally, your entire argument is moot because I don't think anyone has said every single game MUST have shadows to be good. If I'm mistaken, please quote the post that does. Until then I'm calling stray-man argument again.

Stonetrip doesn't require a splash screen for games made with Shiva. Same for Terrathon and their C4 engine.

 

Meh. The Watermark discussion has been done before. And it was a waaay bigger issue when we actually had to PAY fur Unity Indie....

 

so why the F*** are you still here ?
don't be a dumbass, no one is forcing you to use Unity....

seems like you are in this forum just to start a fight every single time i saw your stupid post.

EDIT:
ah finally, one of the great feature from this new forum :

 

Since I don't have to answer to you, how about you go eat a dick? And learn to read while you're still in 3rd grade, mmkay?

Yeah, we killed that horse, beat it with a stick, shack-paddled it, rode to the gates of hell, chopped its head of, and beat it with a stick again.

 

What I am trying to say is that if this is such a big issue, buy pro. Otherwise why not just focus on making something with a great free engine? I honestly don't think that many people would care if you used a blob shadow or an improvised version of realtime shadows (which can be done). Like it was said earlier, even the latest fallout doesn't use them, but nobody was like "TIS GAME SOXZORZ!"

You also forget that Miyamoto has access to a huge amount of resources, which is why he can do whatever he wants

EDIT: by the tone of your posts I am starting to think that this is a useless argument to get into. How old are you? Literally.

 

Let's see the list.

WoW: Only received Real Time Shadows with the release of the most recent expansion. WoW has spent more time without shadows than with. I never read a complaint that stated "If only this had Dynamic Shadows" It used to have Blob shadows, a feature present in Unity Free.

CounterStrike: Same as WoW, Shadows are new as of CSS, previously used Blob. Never heard a complaint about shadows in CounterStrike.

Crysis: Crysis has pioneered many bleeding edge graphics abilities that are currently now being implemented in other engines (Both Unity and Torque 3D recently copied their approach to deferred rendering [Light Pre-Pass]). People would complain if Crysis was missing shadows because it was advertised as a new graphics milestone. If you try to build a graphics showpiece, and are not using custom middleware, and have 0 budget I'm gonna go ahead and say that was a bad idea on your part.

The CryEngine also cost 6-7 figures. Not a good point when trying to use it as an example for a feature that should be free.

Unreal: $2500 per person per year or %25 of your profit. Either way you cut it, if the Unreal team just bought Unity Pro it'd be cheaper. If it's so important why aren't you jumping at their pricing plan?

Super Mario Galaxy: Nope. If you notice the shadow always points directly downwards at all time no matter the orientation of Mario on the world. That is inconsistent with any mathematical model of lighting or shadow maps. I can't tell you exactly what they did, but possibly some sort of multiple mapped Blob Shadows or Mesh Projection. But it's not Reali-Time Shadow mapping.

Street Fighter 2-4: None of those use Dynamic Shadows. 2/3 are 2D with oblong sprites. 4 uses Mesh Projection downwards on the ground plane. These are all doable in Unity Free.

Don't really know Medal Of Honour or Forza very well, although I know Battlefield 1943 didn't have dynamic shadows and I never heard any complaints.

Not having any shadows of any kind can make a game appear floaty, but Unity doesn't restrict the creation of shadows. Blob Shadows, Mesh Projection, Animation Shadow Meshes with the regular Mesh are all available options. Dynamic Shadows (via Shadow mapping) themselves are not terribly old and it's not like 90+% of games before 2005 felt floaty.

I don't think anyone is stating that making a game with shadows is bad design, it's that making a game and relying on dynamic shadow mapping while using a product that you know doesn't allow that is bad design.

 

1. That's what we're talking about isn't it? There's now 13 pages and poll to answer your question.
2. That's irrelevant to this discussion and beside the point I refuted.
3. Yes, it is useless, not because of my tone, but because you are locked-in to your own narrow view and refuse to see anyone else's side of things.

 

But I'm not, am I - I implied earlier that it would be nice for a splashscreen-less version to exist.

I do think about the argument that I am involved in, you know. The problem here is that people are constantly complaining about a product that is free... F.R.E.E. You didn't have to work for it. Yippee!

People should happy :-/

Yes, the splash screen is irritating and they stole a few features away. Did you actually spend any money on previous unity releases?

You didn't actually have to upgrade to 3.0 from iPhone basic 1.7... it was a choice, hence the way that you don't have to do so to keep making games.

 

There also seems to be a confusion of want and need.

With a few exceptions (A Game based on flashlights maybe), few game designs need dynamic shadows.
Almost any game idea that is 3D and wants to look pretty wants dynamic shadows.

The idea is that no matter how realistic you want you game to be, dynamic lights are not the main mechanic and can be substituted for a lesser replacement. You can create that concept without the lights and it is functionally similar, but visually lesser. It makes it a design want. There are only a small few concepts that cannot be created without dynamic shadows.

If you are making a marble rolling game, you need physics. The concept cannot be created without physics. That means that Unity without physics cannot create that game. It becomes a need for that design.

The fact that it is a design want and not a design need is what makes it a strong candidate for the Pro feature Upsell. This is also similar to the watermark. You don't need it gone, the game works fine without it, however most people want it gone.

 

That's funny because I bought it a few months after release and it had real-time shadows. In fact I just searched for screen-caps of the beta and say a bunch of real-time shadows as well.

Also, not true. Look for some old screen shots.

All that babble doesn't change the fact that there were rt shadows. And if they had been missing I guarantee you people would have been like, WTF?!

Yup. Maybe it's a trick, maybe it's a blob. But it's real-time and it's a shadow.

Again, maybe it's a trick, maybe it's not. Either way, it's a rt shadow. If it's doable in Unity Free they should package it and call it real-time shadows to appease the angry Freebie users.

I feel like I have to keep reminding people that I'm not really in this boat. I'm not asking for the shadows, but I see their point and felt their pain with Unity Basic. Yes, tricks are there. They just suck. Like attaching a blob shadow or mesh projector to a rolling object. That was a fun learning experience for me.

Well of course it would be bad to design a game around a particular engine that doesn't sport all the features you require. But again, no one is saying that. People are saying shadows make things look better and they want them. Personally, I think UT should flip that switch and give it to them. If I'd bought Pro I'd still say, "Give them some god damn shadows, man!" Besides, they've already got that stupid, length splash screen.

 

Man, does anyone read anymore? Yes. I own Unity Basic. Yes. I own Unity iPhone Pro. That makes like 13 times I've said it in this thread alone. :|

And I think the splash screen makes a lot of sense. It says, "Here you go, cool cats. Use our engine, but you have to tell everyone you're using it." It's advertising. It's good business. Stripping shadows is just kicking someone in the shin right before a race.

@Ntero, exactly right. Probably no one, or at least a very small few need shadows. But think about it this way. UT put the splash on the Freebie for advertising. So they're advertising their product... with the uglier version of their product. :?

 

Um by your logic, if SMG and those other games use blob shadows and blob shadows are real-time shadows then that means Unity Free has real-time shadows. Just pointing out the problems in your logic there..

The fact that new users don't know about blob shadows (and cookies), whose fault is it? The user who can't be bothered to read the tutorials, or Unity? They aren't marketed as "real-time shadows" because technically they're not, therefore if Unity said they were real-time shadows they'd be lying. Blob shadows do work in real-time and they look like shadows but they're not "real-time shadows".

They're blob-shadows.

 

Yeah, but I already said that didn't I? You know, where I said, "If it's doable in Unity Free they should package it and call it real-time shadows to appease the angry Freebie users." Yes, they should just call those real-time shadows. Only then they'll have to make blob shadows work right, all the time.

Hell, that's what Conitec and Blitz did with the mesh projection shadows, but at least those always worked.

 

Ok, for WoW that is incorrect. Wrath of the Lich King introduced Dynamic shadows. Anything from Burning Crusade and Vanilla only contained Blob. The modifiable variable didn't even exist prior to that http://www.wowwiki.com/CVar_extShadowQuality. Look at the bottom you can see it was added in 3.0.2. Show me dynamic shadows prior to that. Any link will if it has some reference to version used.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1270971.html
As I said, CS didn't have them CSS did.

Crysis: Crysis licenses go for $1 000 000 per game. Unity is free. Comparing apples to oranges. I will agree they are there, but it's irrelevant to use that for any reasoning that they should be included in Unity Free, because CryEngine costs $1 000 000. Just like having a top of the line engine in a top of the line car is not reasoning for including that engine in the least expensive car on the market. Just because the most visually top of line engine is doing with millions of dollars and hundreds of people has no bearing on what an individual with no budget feels he needs to be able to do.

SF 2-4 and SMG: It's trickery. It's all doable in Unity Free. If you consider these Real-Time shadows, then Unity has full support for Real-Time shadows. I could have sworn the current debate was about Dynamic Shadows, of which those are not examples of. Therefore you have 2 results:

1) They are irrelevant to the discussion because they do not contain the feature being argued about and show visually pleasing replacements for said feature.
2) Unity Free already does what you feel it should do. Glad they could help.

Edit: But shadow solutions are personalized. They include Blob shadows and they are ignored. If they used SMG shadows people would complain that SF 4 shadows weren't included. If they include SF 4 shadows, someone would complain that the pre-baked Source Engine style shadows are missing. It's a vicious cycle and I really like to think Unity could spend it's time better than creating custom solution packages for every whiner that wants something cool but doesn't wanna learn how to make it.

You are correct, Unity can flip the switch and enable render targets (and therefore dynamic shadows). The argument has nothing to do with what they could or couldn't do. I also agree that shadows make things look better. I think everybody here agrees that shadows are a great feature to use.

The argument that I see is whether or not it should be offered to free users, or retained as incentive to turn free customers into paying customers. It helps being a want and not a need for almost all situations, and it's also is good incentive because it can turn something that looks hobbyist into something that looks a lot more professional. Hence why it is for hobbyist game makers once they decide to get Pro. It's incredibly desired and rarely needed and so I can't actually think of a better upsell feature. And having only the splash screen would be a horrible decision. Is a simple splash screen worth $1500 per developer to you? We'd just end up with a bankrupt Unity and a lot of games with Unity Splash Screen. An Upsell is only good if it actually causes people to go for it.

 

But as I just said technically they're not real-time shadows. If Unity says that they are, they'd be lying.
(btw, I was editing my post when you replied, I meant to include the second part in case you didn't see it before replying)

Also I haven't really had any problems with blob shadows so I don't see why you say they don't always work...

 

Doesn't that mean you have shadows??? I thought you said earlier "if I had pro...". TBH I've had enough of this... You are just being rude.

 

Sorry, I'm trying to multi-task and missed this comment.

I think a number of people were trying to emphasize earlier that in most situations it's not uglier. Shadows can help but they don't make a game beautiful or ugly. They just help improve upon what it already is (based on texture/model/animation quality). There are some gorgeous games that don't use real time shadowing.

And that logic is somewhat cyclic. If they give Shadows but keep the Splash, then wouldn't it be better if the advertising builds had DoF, or Beast GI, or Plugins to enable external features like Facebook, etc... At some point they have to draw the line, and it comes down to complete opinion about where that line was drawn.

Personally I feel that shadows and render targets are a great place to put it for reasons mentioned in my last few posts. I also feel that having the Splash Screen as the only difference wouldn't justify the upgrade. And Unity needs to have those upgrades if it wants to survive. It's all well and good to have a fantastic free version to increase advertising, but that would all be for nothing if the added features were not enough incentive to make as many people as possible want to upgrade.

 

@ jackshiels
I don't think iPhone Pro has real-time shadows but even so by his logic he has real-time shadows since by his logic blob shadows count as real-time (not by my logic since I don't see blob shadows as real-time shadows).

Codinghero, no offense intended or anything (honestly, please don't take it the wrong way or anything) but you should go through your logic a bit more when posting since you basically contradicted yourself (Free should have real time shadows (you)->blob shadows count as real-time shadows (you)->therefore Unity free has real-time shadows? Then what is everyone complaining about?)
But then if blob shadows don't count as real-time shadows, then what happens to all those games we just mentioned that use blob shadows and not real-time shadows?

 

Realtime shadows have pros and cons and non-realtime aswell. If you have lots of dynamic objects and moving lights sure realtime shadows is a great benefit. They do look worse than baked ones though (if you can afford the texture resolution). On top of that unity shadows has had problems with lots of artifacts in the past (maybe that is fixed now). So achieving the most realistic look using baked shadows and staying away from using lots of moving lights and objects is the way to go in my opinion. If your game design doesn't allow for that sure I understand the need for the realtime shadows. The idea that realtime shadows will always help your game look more realistic is not true though.

Something that will ALWAYS help improve the look is image filters though, wouldn't mind having those in Unity free

 

I personally think they should put all the features in Pro back into Free, except they should lengthen the watermark splash screen length to 1 hour and have a background sound of ducks quacking while the splash screen is showing.

 

But then there is MORE stuff in free than in pro. Doesn't seem fair to pro-users

 

They should be allowed to download Free too. Then they can have Pro AND Free.

 

Like I said earlier, they're still shadows.

Don't always believe the forums (see attached image).

My point about Crysis is it has rt shadows. That was all. Put a price on it all you want, but I was just saying they're there. And like I said, A5 (Conitech) and Blitz3D both had them ten years ago for $50 and $100 respectively.

No, it's about real-time shadows. And trickery or not, those are shadows, and they're in real-time. I bet if UT dropped a 100% reliable mesh-proj or even blob shadow in the Freebiers would be appeased. At least for a while.

1. Yes they do. You just want to call them trickery instead of shadows.
2. Not quite. Mesh-proj and blob shadows are buggy... at best. And why do you keep saying "you?" Have you not been reading about how I don't want anything?

Not personally. But that's because I have other options. To someone else? Maybe. With Umbra, Beast, and all the other features? Most likely. Also, it'd put UT's better face forward instead of the gimpy one. Besides, I doubt many people are paying $1,500 to get shadows. And for the ones who are planning on upgrading to Pro, I doubt adding shadows to Freebie is going to deter them.

Uh, but they are. They're shadows, and they're being "cast" under the objects in real-time. By definition, they're real-time shadows. As I said, Conitec and Blitz did it ten years ago and no one called them liars. Also, the problem I have with blobs, like I said, is for rotating and/or rolling objects.

Uh, what? No, it means I have Basic... which doesn't have shadows. If UT fully supported blob shadows and made them work, and changed their name to real-time shadows, then yeah Unity Free would have shadows. Now if you meant do I personally have shadows, yeah. I do cast a shadow. And if you meant as in game engines, yeah, because I also own Shiva (and several others). If you consider that being rude you have got to be the most overly-sensitive girl on the forum.

That's one opinion. And it's a Pro user opinion, of course. So would the Pro users complain if UT took rt shadows out of the Pro version? I'm guessing yes since a lot of the 3.0 fiasco is about shadows. Let's take shadows out of every game on the market with one big update. You don't think people will notice? Remove shadows from paintings and see if people still think they're beautiful.

Probably, but since UT licensed those features at least the division makes sense. Just turning off shadows is arbitrary.

@Jingles, no I didn't contradict myself. Read everything before responding, thanks. Until they make them work 100% and label them as real-time shadows, Freebie doesn't have real-time shadows.

 

You know very well what I was talking about - in general you are being quite rude.

Other people agree with me on that one... I am starting to think that you are simply a troll. And by the way, iPhone pro needs unity pro to function, therefore you do not have iphone pro...

Your social skills leave much to be desired. Do you like insulting people? Does it make you feel better about yourself?

 

@ jackshiels

I have to say I agree with you

 

If anyone on this forum is a troll, it is definitely you. You exist here only to contradict any opinion that is not 100% in line with Unity Tech. Even when quoting them you refuse to fully read and understand anyone else's posts. Either that or you're just a professional moron. I will gladly mail you $100 USD if you can point out where I said I have Unity iPhone Pro, you simple, simple, child. YOU have officially started the insult game, I'm happy to join.

@Jingles, of course you do. You both are of the exact same opinion and are obviously incapable of diverse thinking. Congratulations on finding your soul mate. <3

 

I will officially take my $100 now... and you admitting you are either forgetful, a liar, a troll, or all three.

P.S. Considering you have, apparently, said it 13 times and are exasperated by how we keep forgetting you have Unity iPhone Pro, you would think that YOU would remember saying it.

 

codinghero seems to have the social skills of a 3 year old with downs and the attention span of a gnat. Impressive, truly impressive.


Can this be locked? Please?

 

$100 plz. BTW you started the name calling - I said you were "being rude", you called me a "little girl".

 

Interesting,
You have Unity Free + Unity iPhone Pro? How is that possible? You need at least Unity Pro to own Unity iPhone Pro...

 

Congratulations, you found the one time where I typoed in haste from replying to stupid illiterates. Unfortunately you lose too since you both somehow repeatedly missed my reply to Tatas here:

Thanks for playing tho.

@jeffro11, congrats on increasing your post count by 1.

I'll mail you $100 after you mail me $100 for missing the post above. And calling someone rude is considered an insult.

Are you still trying to battle whits with an empty chamber, Tatas?

 

The great thing about this thread is that people come and argue for some number of pages, then leave after "proving" their case to people too dumb to understand it, then another crusader for free stuff picks up the guidon and charges forth into the battle.

 

@codinghero

So you want a Blob Shadow tutorial? That's it? I'm really confused a few pages earlier where you were arguing about shadows not being included as if it was a Pro feature. They get the same Projector class as you do.
Everyone else was talking about Shadow Maps in here on both for and against sides.

http://reinerstileset.4players.de/unityblobshadowtutorialE.html

I'll even include a second link to improve the z-fighting issues
http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/40257-SOLVED!-Blob-Shadows-Flickering-on-iPhone

Glad I could be of service.

Now maybe in the thread where we talk about the differences between Pro and Basic we go back to talking about the differences between Pro and Basic, and not a buggy Projector class that both have.

Edit:
I'm still really confused. Technically blob shadows are NOT real time shadows. real time means computed in real time. They are not. They are textures on a plane. The texture is created long before the game is run, making the shadows you are asking for not processed in real time in any way.

and this too:

What Pro feature was it you felt you needed to simulate the visual effects in Mario Galaxy, Street Fighter, WoW, and Counter Strike?

 

Not particularly. I guess you skimmed the posts too. Gold star for you! I'll make it a different color this time so it's easier. If Unity Tech would fully implement and support an in-house (not community scripted hacks) real-time blob or mesh-projection shadow system, get it 100% usable and reliable, and call it "Real-Time Shadows," they can technically say that Unity Free has real-time shadows. It worked for other engines ten years ago, I'm sure it could work for Unity now. Either that or they can "flip the switch" and stop stripping out that single Pro feature.

@JRavey, dude, remember the "Oh noes! Apple dun screwed us now!" thread back in April? That one was fun!

 

Your arguments are becoming laughable! 100 bucks because I missed the post above? XD

And again... I didn't call you rude, I said you were BEING rude. There is a difference, you know.

 

Are you the one who basically said, "It's Unity Tech's product, they can do what they want with it?" Whoever said it, same deal. It's my game, them's the rules. I can mail you the fine print.

And finally, thank you for admitting you don't read all the posts. I wish everyone would do the same because it's obvious most of the folks here just regurgitate their same old replies without reading what they're replying to.

No, they're actually exactly the same. Or would it have been different if I'd said, "You're being a little girl?" No, of course not.

Where did I say I wanted to simulate the visual effects in those games? You should fully read the arguments in chronological order. I was just stating that those games have real-time shadows and are great games, which was in response to Jackie's quote below:

But since you asked, if I were to recreate those games I would require a full real-time shadow solution for some. For the rest I'd at least need a decent looking real-time drop shadow that doesn't bug out or require hackey hacks.

 

The difference there is that I am not a little girl and you are being rude... Rudeness is definable, whereas calling a male female over the Internet requires emotional argument to occur.

PLEASE someone lock this now, it's becoming embarrassing.

 

The second point is totally subjective. The first ... .. . never mind.

 

Your social skills are beyond the pale... If I were you I would actually be really depressed about myself... It seems after my logical argument the only thing you can do is make fun of me - the classic sign of someone who is working out of a hole. Laughter doesn't mean you are clever.

 

Um, wasn`t the discussion about DYNAMIC shadows?

 

Definitely, this guy (codingdumbhero) have some serious problems.

 

codinghero just lost the internet.
i don't even have so much lifetime left to list all the faults he made in is fail-try-discussion about blob-shadows and dynamic shadows.

but i must admit that this thread is really entertaining.
Thumbs up for jackshiels that tries to save a doomed soul.

 

codinghero's arguments are just full of holes, at first I thought we were dealing with a person of reasonable intelligence, but it it's hard to believe that now...
oh well, yay for trolls

 

I believe professor farnsworth said it best.....

 

...or like arguing with a mule maybe ?