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Are you spending too long making your games? [video presentation]

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Arowx, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. Arowx

    Arowx

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    This successful indie games developer analyses his development logs and revenue data and shares his results with other developers.

    Is there a sweet spot between development time/cost and revenue for game developers, for Grey Alien Games* it looks like there could be.

    So how well do you record your development time/costs and games revenue and have you analysed the data to boost your earnings potential?

    * Note this developer mainly works on 2D casual games e.g. Match 3 and Card games but has maintained their business financially for a number of years. I do not believe he uses Unity.
     
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  2. LaneFox

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    Are you spending too long in Arowx threads?
     
  3. Ryiah

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    I remember this developer. He gave a talk at GDC about surviving as a game developer for over a decade while not having any hit games. From the way the description of the video you linked reads he clearly has continued his streak.

     
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  4. neoshaman

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    Of course I'm taking too long, I didn't know half the stuff I know now, and I had no idea where to go either, i'm broke, I'm likely to stay that way too, it's not always about the money, or the mental health or the social status :( yep you should be concerned if you are like me, don't do me lol
     
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  5. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Your just attacking the message passer and not the message, which is by another successful indie game developer (11 years self employed).

    What is wrong with the message/meme/idea presented of finding optimal development times for a given game genre to maximise your returns?
     
  6. Murgilod

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    There's nothing wrong with this Arowx thread. It's on-topic to game development and business and references a professional in the field who has had a few other good talks under their belt.
     
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  7. LaneFox

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    Well, your OP and my reply are actually pretty much on the same theme. Where does the bell curve fall when it comes to spending time in these types of threads?

    I don't think my reply is any less valid than your OP.
     
  8. Arowx

    Arowx

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    As an asset store developer I thought you would be promoting ways of improving other developers time/profit margins! ;):D
     
  9. LaneFox

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    Thats my point ;)
     
  10. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    neoshaman alludes to it, but what you're working on likely plays a factor as well. If it's something you have plenty of experience with and you're just pumping stuff out, then I can understand maximizing return in that manner. However if you're learning new things or doing novel things that require experimentation then there's gonna be some overhead that may not get accounted for in revenue.
     
  11. aer0ace

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    Yep, spending too much time on my current game. I estimate another 2 years until I'm finished. That's way too long. Full-time day job commitment hasn't changed since I started back up in 2016, but the other life stuff has. It has a tendency to mess up long-term dev plans. This video has caused me to re-evaluate my large project goals, and probably pivot to a more short-term dev cycle on some other simpler ideas I have cooking, and then come back to this larger project at a future time. I hate switching context, but if I'm to run a business while doing the full-time job thing, my free time is precious, and I'm not willing to adjust scope of my large game. Sure, I've abandoned numerous projects in the past, and hence my reluctance to pivot. But sometimes you gotta right the ship.
     
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  12. Joe-Censored

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    Using years or months to measure indie game development time only makes sense for someone working full time on it. Often though indie game developers have a day job and then work on their games in the evening and on the weekend, in addition to the rest of life they have to do. So 1 year for the part timer might equal 3 months for someone working full time on it.
     
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  13. zombiegorilla

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    I think it is pretty clear that from the dreck that is out there, that most are spending way too little time on their games.
     
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  14. Martin_H

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    Nothing is wrong with it. If all your threads were like this, there would be no meme about Arowx threads™.
    Interesting topic and I liked his previous talk. I'll watch this one later. Thanks.
     
  15. QFSW

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    Yeah I think the Arowx hate is a unwarranted here, just because most of his threads are Arowx threads™ doesn't mean all of them are
     
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  16. Arowx

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    I like the example he presents where you earn $100k from a game on steam then:
    • 35% goes on taxes and steams%
    • $35k on artwork/music/assets/marketing.
    • leaving $30k net profit.
    • Over 1 year development that's about $14 an hour (just above minimum wage for a years work).
    What if the Unity community did a survey of hours worked and cost of development vs revenue, would we see trends in game styles 2D/3D, genres, platforms, assets used.

    Would we all then try and jump into developing the most profitable games genres/platforms?
     
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  17. BoogieD

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    I have little interest in making trashy little 2D games that have all been done before.
    I don't count my passions in dollars per hour.
     
  18. EternalAmbiguity

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    If this were just a job, maybe. But I don't think it's just a job for most of us.
     
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  19. aer0ace

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    What I have found in comparing my 1 year as a full-time indie dev to having a full-time job currently, is that you can approximate your productivity to be cut to 1/8th. Which is about right. If I spend 40+ hours/week on full-time indie dev, and find myself doing about ~5 hours/week in my spare time with my full-time job, it comes out to an eighth of production output. However, this isn't completely true, because with shorter sessions, there is a lot more context switching to get into the "mode" of development, which means writing myself extra notes and a lot more planning than I normally would if I had a long 4 to 8 hour session. So a game that would take 3 months of full-time dev would take 2+ years for me to complete. Number Crunchers (linked in my sig) took me about 2.5 full-time months to complete. The gameplay itself took maybe 2 weeks, but all of the extra production value (modes, polish, Android Play Store integration, etc.) added that much more time to the dev cycle. So, I can reasonably expect myself to produce something about 1.5x better than Number Crunchers in 2 years while having a full-time job, accounting for experience and piggybacking on any technology that I built.
     
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  20. Martin_H

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    Is it really a reasonable expectation though? 2 years are a lot of time during which many things in your life can change. Not to mention 2 years worth of feature-creep and time to question your own decisions weighing on you, compared to a more focused 3 month fulltime devs sprint.
    Maybe you are different and more focused than me to pull stuff off according to plan, even years later, but I could see myself having vastly different outcomes if the same amount working-hours is crammed in 3 months or spread over 2 years.
     
  21. aer0ace

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    You are right. Reflecting on my past productivity while having a full-time job, the most I've ever spent focused on one project was about 2 years, but I did not finish that project in that time. I pretty much just repeated that behavior in the last 2 years (pretty much to-the-day), even though I've gotten much farther in this project than any other project I've spent this long with (while working full-time). Not only that, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for this project, but I know it's still about another 2 years out, unless I start aggressively looking for contractors to help finish it, which I'm not ready to do yet. Although, I'm fairly positive I will be hiring someone for some story art and music eventually.

    I really appreciate the kick in the ass. I've been a pro and hobby game dev for almost 2 decades now, with only 3 personal projects published. That's got to change, and despite the fact that I hear "start small" all the time, and even preach it, I'm such a hypocrite to this day. Curse creativity.
     
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  22. zombiegorilla

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    I wouldn’t say “all”, but, yes, I do think a lot of developers, particularly new developers would do exactly that. Probably using it like a checklist.

    There are about a million things to figure out just to make a game in general. Quadruple that for making a potentially successful game. And people don’t realize it is a complex art form, and just want simple answers. Correlation is not causation. The amount of time spent making a game is irrelevant in comparison to the tons of other factors, like skill knowledge and resources.
     
  23. Joe-Censored

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    All true. I work on my project part time about 15 hours per week. A lot of that is broken up into small chunks though, like 45 minutes every work day during lunch, a couple hours in the evenings, and then a few blocks during the weekend. I spend around the first 10 minutes each time getting my environment all set up, tethering to my phone, logging into my remote game server, getting the right scripts open I was working on and getting my train of thought back to where I was, etc. Adds up to like an hour and a half a week just in getting ready to put some work in.
     
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  24. theANMATOR2b

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    Thanks for sharing @aer0ace @Joe-Censored - So it's reasonable to factor if spending both longer time each session and more time during the week will reduce the long outlook. I'm attempting to put in over 20 hours per week - so far I've only been able to put in on average 16-18, but - it is hard, and it effects everything else un-related to game dev. I'm committed to pushing aggressively now - to keep a truncated overall dev cycle - but damn, it's hard!
    I don't think - at this point - I could even have motivation for a 2 year outlook. That is a long time, even if everything was planned to perfection and scope was held in place.

    Maybe the time change will help - give us another hour during the day.
    Good luck all ~
     
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  25. BoogieD

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    Gee, I spend up to 16 hours coding on some days. Usually about 12 hours each day for a few weeks then a break for a while doing something physical outdoors. If I break things up into smaller chunks I lose focus on core development.
     
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  26. theANMATOR2b

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    Are you full-time indie? 16 hours a day has to result in expected roi, Is this how you support yourself?
     
  27. BoogieD

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    I'm an indie coder and have always worked this way but relatively new to Unity. With 16 hour days I only expect to get sore eyes. Perhaps roi if things work out well. I have a passion for development and know there is tons of work to do it properly so jump in the deep end. I no longer have to equate time spent with income so have freedom to do as I wish. I rationalize things differently because I can. Coding is entertainment for me. I haven't watched TV for 5 years or more. It bores the crap out of me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
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  28. Kiwasi

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    I spent way too long on my first game. The concept deserved maybe two months, tops. I spent another year tweaking and messing around with stuff. I got essentially zero benefit for the additional ten months working on the game.

    Its very easy to spend too long on a project.
     
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  29. MBrown42

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    This is a great question; agree it it easy to get sucked into black holes of time trying to get one thing or another to work they way you want it to. My only 2 cents on this is to try and periodically take a step back and evaluate where your project is, where you wanted it to go, and what your timeline is like. At some point you need to put a stake in the ground and call it done, move on to updates, or do something else for a day or two.

    my first game took over a year, on a very part time schedule. it was a learning curve of unity and game dev in the first place, but in retrospect I spent way too much time on little details that in the end 1) no one besides me may ever notice, and 2) I barely have any downloads so ... spend more time on marketing and strategy, and maybe 1% less on diving into the editor to figure out why [what may be] some little thing look great in the editor but not quite on the device, or whatever.
     
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  30. neoshaman

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    I tend to spend a lot of time on project, but I also frontload all uncertainty, difficulty and complexity at the beginning of the projects, while some people need to do easy task to feel like they are progressing, I just don't, I don't feel like progressing when I know I can do something but when I feel I have no idea how to solve or don't know anything about. I have the experience of project breezing through until meeting major roadblock, that can kill a project.

    The corollary is that observer thinks you are stagnating, you are effectively spending a lot of time moving slowly and looking incompetent, which is true by design. Instead of having just a todo list, I have vague direction with to document and to validate list, ONLY once these list has been cleared I do a proper detailed todo list. IT happen sometime something fail validation and it invalidate the whole project before any actual work start. But also by definition these things are not possible to know how many time it will takes.

    For me it's the best strategy, I'm transforming weaknesses into competence, I may solve problem nobody did before. It minimize risk and cost of projects before actual investment are made, it make working with people easier when all the major risk are out, I have experience of relation falling apart because of difficulty tanking a project. If you work with people, having safe project that can be completed is important for cohesion and morale.

    So do I spend too much time? by definition yes, but I choose to go that way and validate all the uncertainty of all my ideas once and for all. I'm coming down near the end of the list anyway by now.
     
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  31. TonyLi

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    It's wise to tackle your technical challenges relatively early. But some smart designers have a good reason for doing easy tasks first. It lets them quickly evaluate if the concept is fun in the first place. If it's not fun, then there's no need to waste time overcoming the technical challenges. This probably works best for experienced developers who already have a good idea of what's technically possible or not.
     
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  32. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Generally I would imagine solo developers will have more profit doing 2D games because they'll be able to actually finish them.
     
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  33. Martin_H

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    I've spent so much time finding out if I could do some things, that I forgot to really question whether I should do those things.
     
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  34. neoshaman

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    Assuming it's only technical challenge and that fun is the end and be all of games :p. To be frank I'm now more interested in posing new foundation than making fun game.

    Pioneer made new mechanics that inspired other designer to turn them in fun game, if you never take the risk or took an idea far enough, you take the risk of retreading old place. And I'm old enough to have had the pleasure of having made fun games already, I don't have that itch to scratch.

    Walking simulator were not super fun at first, they were intellectual curiosity, it's only iteration across many designer we got something as dense as Edith Finch, and lesson has been trickle down to classic gameplay to make them more effective like in brother a tales of two sons. Taking risk is always hard, we can't just stay were there is light when we know the key was lost in the dark part :p

    Anyway, while fun is a parameter, my real goal is design and production. For example that's why I have a big interest in pcg and interactive story, most pcg are made with structure in mind and design, it's about how to place corridor, rooms, objects etc in plausible way. very little thought is given to intent and meaning generation, except in accidental emergent way or in overall thematic.

    But what are the boundary of meaning? Meaning is what sustain interest, so the logical end conclusion is to test the design of infinite world, how long can I sustain interest in this challenge? That length is simply the metric of the efficiency of the implementation, if the world feel empty and redundant, it point at the meaning being poorly implemented or shallow. Solving that won't be handed to me just by making a fun game at all, I have to invest thought and turn them into actual implementable structure. That takes time and risk.

    Looking for fun is a crowded place, we know how to create fun already, I already did that, if I want fun I'll just buy a good game, but most fun aggregate around just a few formula, new formula are created few apart, and they generally start niche, for ex rogue like is big now, but it was most the obscure with reputation of being an unfunny genre before. I'll buy your game, and hopefully you'll be inspired to make fun game with whatever I figure out. Distribution of concern and all is the most efficient.
     
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  35. Martin_H

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    Have you considered targeting the assetstore first and foremost as release plattform for your project? Based on your description it sounds almost like the logical conclusion.
     
  36. yoonitee

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    There's a reason he didn't have a hit. Because his games weren't very original or creative. Should have spent two years making something interesting rather than 11 years pumping out bejeweled clones.
     
  37. Murgilod

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    If originality is what drove hits, we'd see a lot more original titles in the first place.
     
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  38. neoshaman

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    I think flair is more important than originality, you must know where the audience bent at a moment where you can deliver something. Which mean luck most of the time.

    Originality still need to be relatable, but you can do it too late or too early, audience might not relate anymore, or you are too obscure and the audience need to be build by going through early adopter.

    Reproduction, well since there is a clear standard, you need to reach it, which mean more works, resources and time, and you are in competition with many people that try to outdo the standard,which mean you might succeed but be overshadow.

    There is no real silver bullet.

    If there is a formula that works is to do fast follow while having the resources, that's how AAA roll it seems, same old, "better", bigger, faster.

    Yep, but I'm a crummy programmer, I don't know if I can support a product correctly and not all stuff would be technical anyway, it's more new approaches. I mean for example: can you put agile development or "line of third" into an asset? In my case pcg wouldn't do something radically different in code, it's more about how to use it, intent and meaning are very abstract idea.

    Consider how we do pcg now, we use it to populate map or randomly select parameter, when a human do level design, he start with intent, find the sequence with bubble chart, do a rough lay out and finalize with art and placement, each step reflect intent of the previous. Actual implementation of pcg almost work in reverse, with each layer emerging from the low level placement, so when intent arise it's accidental at best.

    We generally use contraint instead of explicit intent, but there is a difference between the algo wanting tall character, and having constraint above 1m80, technically they are the same, the underlying idea is slighty different and allow different way to manipulate and generate. The equivalent in art would be using slavishly the rule of third, vs creating emphasis, rule of third are design to enforce (contraint) emphasis, but are not the actual goal themselves.

    For example I'm working on story generation, instead of thinking about plot and character or event, I start with theme, stakes etc ... what does they mean? In the case of theme, I bogged down story to expressing human needs, I use a simplify maslow for prototype, that is security, relationship and achievement. Now I can have a high level form in the sense of "desire/fear to obtain/lose a certain state, expressed in term of position along a need scale. This would then parametric lower step like deciding which are the mean of actions, actors, places and structure, and so on.
     
  39. BoogieD

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    Just count how many simple ideas are out there in games that the purchaser has certain basic expectations that are usually poorly met. All too common. Things don't necessarily need to be that original, they just have to be done well to fulfill the purchaser's expectations to avoid disappointment. The same can be said with a lot of software in general.
     
  40. yoonitee

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    There's definitely a market for simple games done "well" if by well we mean with loads of sparkles and pixie dust and unicorns and generic characters with big eyes.

    It is the game equivalent of the painting of dogs playing poker. Sure you can make money out of painting pictures of dogs playing poker. But will you be able to look at yourself in the mirror?


    Look at this character. What's her name? Where did she come from? Why is she standing on a big pile of giant confectionery? Nobody knows.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  41. BoogieD

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    I wasn't talking about re-skinning basic kiddy games with cutesy colorful graphics.
    Her name is Tiffi, sister of Kimmy. They developed Windows 10 together. Don't you Google?
     
  42. neoshaman

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    er .... no, Tiffi is blond, she is in candy crush SAGA get your fact right lol

    THIS is Kimmy

    She is in candy crush SODA
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  43. BoogieD

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    I stand corrected when there's an expert in the room. ;-)
     
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  44. Ryiah

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    At the same time he was able to stay in business that entire span of time making nothing but clones and reskinning them.
     
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  45. zombiegorilla

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    Indeed.

    It’s also worth noting that quite often people get into making games because after playing a particular or favorite game, they feel it could be better and they could improve on it. That’s why I started, and why a lot of folks I know did. While originality may drive some, many are driven by doing it “right” or better.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
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  46. BoogieD

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    It really depends on you own objective. To produce regular income or to be creative in doing something you believe will be appreciated. I could make a lot more regular income doing something I have no passion for but don't need to. You don't necessarily need to 'step where no man has stepped before' to be successful. Just go the same place but do it properly giving the user the stimulation they thought they were buying rather than most the hyped up rubbish out there.
     
  47. Aiursrage2k

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    I dont think so especially zero budget indies.
     
  48. BoogieD

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    Your statement is meaningless. Which part of what my personal perspective is don't you agree with?
    Exactly what don't you think so?
     
  49. theANMATOR2b

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    Interesting. Which game did you feel could be made better?
    What was the result of the game you created, was it better?
     
  50. BoogieD

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    Trainz is a good example. It has a huge online following with many people who have developed assets for the simulation but the software that runs it sucks big time. I've coded a system over just a few weeks in Unity that makes Auran's engine ready for the scrap heap. Turning it into the full online multiplayer community is another thing though.