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Are you "serious"?

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by RJ-MacReady, Nov 12, 2014.

  1. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    Do you consider yourself to be "serious" about game design and development? What does "serious" mean to you?
     
  2. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    No. I enjoy games, development, learning & improving my game dev knowledge and skills.
    It is not so serious that it causes me stress. Sometimes I let other people do that. If I make progress on my game projects each week I am content.

    Guess it depends on what you consider "serious". I have tried working with people in the past who said they were very serious meaning very committed to completing the game project. Their interest dropped within days or weeks when it became obvious game dev was a process... slow and steady... not a way to get rich quick.

    I do this for fun plain and simple. Yet I seem to be more committed than many who say they are serious.
     
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  3. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    I also have difficulty defining what serious is. I'm committed, and sometimes I even get bent out of shape over the stuff, but my attitude tends to remain sort of light-hearted, nonchalant. But I guess that's how I am with my regular job, too.

    Edit: But I want to do this as a job. I'm really willing to do anything to learn the skills necessary to trade my job for one in the game design and development industry. It's my hobby but it's also my obsession.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2014
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  4. Ryiah

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    I'm "serious" in doubting this pertains to game design. :p
     
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  5. RJ-MacReady

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    In all fairness, that has been said about every thread that has been posted on this forum since day one.

    In fact I think the most common thing posted on this forum is "don't post this here."

    :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2014
  6. slay_mithos

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    Tricky...

    My answer will have to be "I am not certain".

    I mean, I'm doing a lot of it to keep my skills alive, to learn, to try things out, which means "no".
    But at the same time, I do delve into this exercise whole heartedly, and am planning on making at least parts of an actual game, which requires a sense of "seriousness".

    Take from that what you want ;)
     
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  7. GarBenjamin

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    It kind of goes without saying that if you are not actually working on a game project and are just reading, talking and writing about game design & dev then you almost certainly cannot be serious. Serious about actually doing something I mean. Otherwise you'd be actually doing something. Working on a game. Fighting with quirks. Coming up with cool stuff. Racking your brain for hours on a silly issue. Ya know.... having the "good times".
     
  8. JasonBricco

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    I would call myself serious, but I'm also new. And I have a lot to learn!

    I'm very committed to releasing my game, I spend great amounts of time on it each day. I invest in learning opportunities (other than college, which I don't see as worth it).

    And... that's pretty much my life. I don't do much else. I work on my game and I learn new things through various websites (Edx, Coursera, Digital Tutors, Game Institute, Udacity, etc).

    Of course, I'm relying on this. I'm trying to make a career out of this, it's not a hobby thing. I can't see myself enjoying any other kind of job.
     
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  9. GarBenjamin

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    It's kind of incredible the number of people who want to make their living by developing games. A great goal but of course the more people pile in to the industry the less likely any one person is to succeed. Simple supply and demand. If 100 people are in town and there are only 3 cows the milk is worth a lot. If there are 1,000 cows the milk may be worth less than water.
     
  10. JasonBricco

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    Except that in the case of cows, they all produce milk roughly evenly - they're all roughly doing the same exact thing.

    In the case of games, people make very different kinds of games. And some people make more unique games that stand out, some just copy games that already have been successful hoping to also get successful. Some make more complex games and put more effort, some make games like Flappy Bird. (Then again, a lot of these simple games like Flappy Bird were quite successful...)

    I don't think it's so simple like that, though. You can have a lot of power in how successful you can be, it just may be harder and require more effort if more people join the industry.
     
  11. GarBenjamin

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    You have some power over your success in the game industry as far as making games as an Indy and selling them. Some. You can control if you make a game or not. You may be able to control how well designed the game is. You may be able to control how good the game looks. And sounds. You may be able to make a good game. A fun game. You may even be able to make a great game. A game that is so fun and addicting nearly every person would want it enough to buy it. Great. Now you have completed step 1. Step 2 begins. You have some control over awareness for your game. You have some control over how many places carry it. And so forth.

    It is the same as cows despite us not wanting to think so. When mobile market was not flooded prices for apps were much higher than now and people eagerly snapped them up. Now the market is so flooded it is common to see good games with less than 50 downloads period.
     
  12. zombiegorilla

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    Yes of course. But I don't build serious games.
     
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  13. JasonBricco

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    Well, I guess that's where good knowledge of marketing comes in. Knowing how to get the word out properly, how to build awareness, etc.

    And, I suppose having money would sure help!
     
  14. RJ-MacReady

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    I think we need to realize that bubbles burst. The app market was born only a few years ago. That get rich quick stuff? It's gone. Now, reality sets in.

    Work hard every day, be valuable, take what you can get and in many years you can get somewhere.
     
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  15. zombiegorilla

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    But... but... but... I HAVE been working for almost a full month on my ball rolling game! The free graphics I downloaded for it are super awesome. My mom and my friends say it is awesome. Why don't people see/buy my game!?!?! Apple should make games more discoverable. :mad: I want my millions of dollars. Its not fair! Unity should market and sell my game too! Whaaaaaaa!
     
  16. JasonBricco

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    One thing about me is that I'm not doing this because I want to 'get rich quickly'. In fact, my decision doesn't even factor money in. I chose this career on the basis that I would rather have less money but enjoy what I do than have more money and hate my job. Granted, I need enough money to live a comfortable life. But I don't need millions for that. Not even close.

    I'll try my best to make quality games with the knowledge I have. If they work out, great. If not, I'll keep trying, basically. No giving up.
     
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  17. RJ-MacReady

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    I said be valuable.

    I am a plumber. Random guys will walk up to me and say how can I get a job working at your company, I want to make your kind of money... I say well what experience do you have, are you okay with working really long hours and taking a couple years of training before you can start making any money?

    Then they usually just ask me for money or cigarettes or something and then I never hear from them again.
     
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  18. RJ-MacReady

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    It takes a lot more than just spending a lot of time is how you spend that time. And more often than not success really just comes down to doing things that you don't really want to do
     
  19. GarBenjamin

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    Yeah game development has become the modern Gold Rush. And you know who was making big money then, right? There were a certain group of people who always made money. And there was the much much larger first group of people who for the most part made nothing to very very little despite putting in months even years of hardcore work. They kept working chasing because they knew it was possible they could strike gold. After all it happened to that one dude! But that smart group. The second group now that is where the true gold is.
     
  20. GarBenjamin

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    That's the key @JasonBricco don't get into making games to make money. Do it because you enjoy it. Enjoying what you do for a living makes a huge impact on your overall happiness. I enjoy my job very much. In IT but not making games. And while it is not completely true... if you do what you love you will never work a day in your life... it certainly makes a huge difference in your workday. Time flies. And 80% of it is very satisfying.

    You've got the right attitude if you're just doing it for enjoyment with no more expectation than to maybe earn enough money to buy a pizza once or twice per month.
     
  21. SteveJ

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    I disagree that people who are starting out in game development should disregard whether or not they're going to make money. People seem to think you either have the desire to make money, OR artistic integrity. What everyone needs to realise is that you want both of those things to be elements of your approach. You have to think of serious game development as a business. Developing a game costs money, and therefore, you have to at least be thinking about strategies to make back your investment and - hopefully - some profit. It's fine to make games as a hobby (i.e. for enjoyment), but those games are for your family and friends to play. As soon as you start thinking about releasing to the public, you need to start thinking a little more professionally - otherwise, you're wasting everyone's time. Most importantly, your own.

    Just because you're making games because it's your "passion", doesn't mean that you shouldn't also be making games to create revenue for yourself.
     
  22. zombiegorilla

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    Just tell them the money is great, but the giant apes throwing barrels are a bitch!
     
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  23. zombiegorilla

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    If you make money creating games, you get to keep making games!
     
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  24. Ryiah

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    Unless you've got a truly unique game that no one else has developed. Dwarf Fortress, which started off as a hobby, is a good example of this. It is extremely unlikely to happen because most people would write it off as an impractical game to develop, but when it does it can fill a niche few people realized existed.

    Another game that started off as a hobby and had releases for a number of years was the roguelike ADOM. A couple years ago the author decided he wanted to revisit it to revamp it with better graphics, audio, platform support, etc and threw up a crowdfunding for it on Indiegogo. It raised a little over $90,000.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/resurrect-adom-development
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2014
  25. RJ-MacReady

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    *Clicks imaginary dislike button*

    Everybody should not model themselves after the most exceptional, random, rare cases of success. For one thing, everybody trying to be the next Indie mega sensation ensures that nobody will be. It's just the law of supply and demand at work.

    Honey boo boo is now rich, should we all eat sketti and become couponers? It's exactly, literally the same thing. The indie gaming thing has become so much like reality tv, it's not funny. Really. I'm not laughing, and I laugh at everything.

    Do you know how many indie developers there are? Nobody does. I think there are probably more people wanting to make games now than there were guys who started rock bands in their garage in the 70's. It's that many.

    I think you HAVE to think practically, if you really love making games.

    I can fall back on my current trade if this doesn't work out, say I just get burnt out or go crazy, so I'm o.k. But I don't understand investing your 20's in something that you are o.k. with failing at because in your heart, your already a winner. <3 <3 <3
     
  26. Ryiah

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    My point is more that hobbyists can make games for more than family and friends. Both Dwarf Fortress and ADOM were hobbyist developed games that caught on. There are other examples I am certain, but those are two that immediately come to mind.

    Tarn Adams has made sacrifices for practicality's sake. He sacrificed graphics, audio, a decent UI, etc in order to push his effort completely into gameplay.
     
  27. RJ-MacReady

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    I mean I guess the difference between making games and say, a cartography hobby, is that making games is a real job people get paid for. So if you can't make money making games, why are you doing it?
     
  28. GarBenjamin

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    I think it can be done. A person could make a living designing and developing games. I believe that fully. So let me rephrase what I said.

    Make games because you enjoy making games. If you want to make money then don't focus on making some huge game that will take you forever. That kind of game is fine to make if you are only doing it for the love of it. If you want to make a living then you should approach it differently or at least I would. I have seen far too many people spend tons of time and even money making a great game or other software product and end up making hardly any money at all.

    To do it like a business I 'd look at the best game I could make in the shortest amount of time. Make it launch it. Take whatever money I make reinvest it into marketing and helping make the next game. Basically growing a business. The old fashioned way. Maybe you can buy a pizza or whatever once or twice per month but the rest of the money you pour back into your business. And keep growing it until you are making more than you need to live on. Then you can decide whether to keep working the same way, form a company, etc.

    What I am getting at is way too many people think they can simply spend a month or two years making a game and then have a smash hit making $150k or more. And I am just trying to keep expectations realistic. That is always a possibility but it very unlikely.
     
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  29. RJ-MacReady

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    Or let me put it this way. You can make money off of even a decent game. If you're not making any money at all, what is it that you're doing wrong?

    Because you have to be doing something wrong.

    "Tarn Adams has made sacrifices for practicality's sake. He sacrificed graphics, audio, a decent UI, etc in order to push his effort completely into gameplay."

    Sounds like somebody who doesn't play well with others.
     
  30. GarBenjamin

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    Maybe they are doing something wrong. Maybe not. Look at the Asset Store. Why are the top asset developers making over $30k per month while most asset developers will be lucky to make $100 per month. And I bet there are many who have not made a penny despite having a good quality asset.

    There are some obvious reasons such as being "first to market". If you get there first and solve a big problem AND you don't get lazy and continue providing great customer service and continue improving your product you will have a much greater chance of success than the person who makes an even better quality product a year later. Why? Because even if you make a better quality product (maybe even cheaper) a year later than the first person... the weight of the community will be against you. Most examples will focus on using that first asset. And users of the asset will be more likely to defend the first asset and see you as an enemy than they are to consider switching. I am not saying this is the whole reason I am just saying it is a big picture and many things come into play beyond how good the product itself is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2014
  31. RJ-MacReady

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    Well I mean in fairness you're talking about assets, and I think that's quite different. You're talking about selling to a pool of developers. All I'm talking about is selling to the general public, even if you have to monetize your game through ad revenue... I mean I went to highschool with two different guys who both managed to make some money off of apps. And can I tell you, they weren't the best quality games I've ever seen. But they were complete and they were decent, and they were pretty fun. So that's what I am talking about I'm not quite sure what assets have to do with what I'm talking about.
     
  32. slay_mithos

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    Tarn is one of the perfect examples of someone that will do what they want, without listening much to feedback.
    The results are nearly always wonky, and seriously not as good as they could be if the same concept could be executed with more respect for the audience and with more directions.

    A dwarf fortress with all the gameplay options, but a better design toward the end user would make a game played by many more people.

    At the same time though, I'm not sure anyone more "normal" would have worked so hard on the mechanisms that make that game so attractive to those playing it.

    On the plus side, he makes a somewhat decent living, considering it's completely through donations, it's actually crazy to see. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145294.0) if you want a report on how much player donate on regular basis to keep him working on that completely niche.
     
  33. RJ-MacReady

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    "On the plus side, he makes a somewhat decent living, considering it's completely through donations, it's actually crazy to see. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145294.0) if you want a report on how much player donate on regular basis to keep him working on that completely niche."

    I'd rather try doing what GarBenjamin was just describing, try to start getting games released on a regular basis making money and reinvesting the money.
     
  34. GarBenjamin

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    Ha ha! Fair enough. I was basically just saying it is not as simple as being based on quality of the product. I think many people think if they just work hard enough. Just make the best possible game X they can make that guarantees their success. But it doesn't. That's all. Actually, from what I have seen it may well make much better sense to make a very simple game than to work on a masterpiece of epic proportions.
     
  35. RJ-MacReady

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    In my experience crap sells better than quality, because crap can be sold a lot cheaper than quality. The key to getting established is volume of crap, I think if you can be trusted by the public for creating at least decent quality crap then when you try to make something a little nicer down the road lo and behold you have the capability and the customer base to actually make that a reality. Basically I just don't think anybody is going to let you have any money until you've paid your dues.
     
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  36. RJ-MacReady

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    Out of curiosity I looked at all the games Blizzard has ever produced and that's really several games before Warcraft was ever released. Their first title was a race car game. Perspective.
     
  37. RJ-MacReady

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    "It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock n' roll." - AC/DC
     
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  38. SteveJ

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    Arguably, at the "indie" level though, I guess ALL game development starts out as a hobby. Dwarf Fortress just happens to be one of those extreme fringe cases that "accidentally" became successful.

    I'd also argue that it's impossible to tell if you've got "a truly unique game that no one else has developed". Every game has elements of other games and I don't think anyone ever knows for certain that they've hit on the winning combination. It just happens sometimes. The players decide.

    I guess what I mean is that you can't really plan to be a fringe case. You can only approach your game development methodically, hoping that you see success... however you define "success" (whether it's monetary or otherwise).

    For some reason, I always think of game development - at least in the indie scene - as being similar to the plot of the movie Rounders :) You've got your Matt Damon character that is determined to get to the World Series and take it all in one big hit. And then you've got Joey Knish that's described as "grinding out a living". He was the real hero of the movie to me - the real smart guy. I think indie game developers should aim to grind out a living. Scoring the big hit might come, and that would be awesome, but you shouldn't bank on it in any way. Run your business to make a living, but dream about being a rockstar.
     
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  39. GarBenjamin

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    Grinding is good. Sounds like we have some agreement going on that designing for success means thinking of the long haul taking a base at a time instead of relying on home runs. @Misterselmo makes a good point that I think goes along with my view and yours as well regarding grinding along. If a person made a very simple game. Say a game that literally took a few days no more than a week to knock out. Release it. Then repeat again and again.

    As he puts it throwing a lot of crap out there. There are people who have found their success this way. They call it throwing a bunch of $4!7 at the wall and seeing what sticks. Basically, it is a way of doing a market test. Throw enough crap and one may hit upon something. People may feel it is rubbish but still connect with it in some way. And then you can run with it and this is the opportunity to invest more time and money and try to go for the double, triple or even home run. And he brings up another good point that fits my view of growing a business.

    All the while you are throwing that crap at the wall you are getting some players of your games. Some people like crap games. So as you release each bit of crap you are building a list of people for your next game. Ideally, if you made an app it could pull in updates at the start and say "NEW CRAP OUT! Get it here" so you can try to keep these players playing your games. If you released on the computer ideally you get them on a mailing list or in a forum so you can announce NEW CRAP AVAILABLE! So they can move on to that next game. Finally, you have one that just sticks. You will know it when it happens. Instead of seeing 5 downloads in a week you see 500 or maybe 1,000. That is crap that is sticking to the wall.
     
  40. Ryiah

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    I completely agree they are extreme fringe cases, but if you never release your game, using the mindset that hobby games are not to be public, you may never know. I also don't really view it as wasting someone's time. If they don't want to play my game, they don't have to download it.

    Really though Dwarf Fortress is an extreme fringe case in yet another area. Most games don't have such a horrid user interface. They may not be great, but most people seem to try.
     
  41. SteveJ

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    @GarBenjamin - all makes sense, but I'd just replace the word "crap" with "Quality Products" :)
     
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  42. RJ-MacReady

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    "I guess what I mean is that you can't really plan to be a fringe case."

    How exactly does one begin their plan to accidentally become a one in a million oddity?
     
  43. SteveJ

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    All I really meant by that was that if you're making a game purely as a hobby, then obviously you don't have to think about what you're spending in terms of time and money, or what you can get in return. If you have an intention to release from the beginning, OR your hobby turns into something more serious (that you plan to release), then being able to make money from your release should definitely be something that you think long and hard about. i.e. back to the original point, wanting to make money does not destroy your artistic integrity.

    I kind of muddied the water by going off on a million tangents.
     
  44. Ryiah

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    By developing the first thing that comes to mind and releasing it? Dwarf Fortress started off as a mining simulator that simply evolved over time into what it is today. A fantasy world simulator.

    Yes, I tend to be guilty of this as well. I do agree that if you intend to be professional you should be aiming for games that have a good chance of making money. Otherwise you won't stay a professional for very long.
     
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  45. SteveJ

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    Not sure what you mean. I said you CAN'T plan it.
     
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  46. RJ-MacReady

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    Ryiah got that it was sarcasm....

    And on that note, I would like to respond to what she wrote.

    You can't call it planning if you're relying on absolute complete dumb luck. That's like saying every single day I'm alive I'm planning on getting struck by lightning.
     
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  47. GarBenjamin

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    Seems like the natural flow of discussion defined "serious" as making money from game dev. Not surprising. Most things seem to use money as a gauge of seriousness.
     
  48. RJ-MacReady

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    Well, I know for me when I started needing money was when I decided to grow up and get a place, start a family, etc. So, I think doing something for money is the ice cold opposite of just doing something for love.
     
  49. GarBenjamin

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    Money is a big motivator for sure. And way to many people start a business because they are in need of money "now". Which is the worst thing they can do in my opinion. It's a process. Building a business as they say. I actually think most folks don't even think about it as a business venture at all. From the posts I have read all over the Internet most folks seem to be focusing exclusively on Make Game. Make Money. Nothing else. No thought about business operations (marketing, customer service, expenses, etc). And most folks seem to think it is very easy. I don't know why other then things like GameMaker and Unity are pitched as ways to easily make a game and most people have no frame of reference to relate it to.
     
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  50. RJ-MacReady

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    Because the folks at Unity Technologies were thinking of the business aspect, and when YoyoGames bought GameMaker they were, as well. I do find it odd that so many people are willing to invest so much of their lives into something without any thought for how to channel that passion into making some money back. You see the same thing in musicians. Those with a little business savvy end up going a lot further, playing more years on front of more people and taking their art to a new level. Imagine if the guys from Metallica were content to play little bars and made no effort to brand themselves, sell themselves. Millions of people's favorite music wouldn't exist.
     
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