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An Unreal Decision

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MadJohny, Aug 15, 2014.

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  1. MadJohny

    MadJohny

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    So I just found this on reddit and I decided to share it here, since those comparasion images feel like total bull**** for me. About the rest, they have some points here and there.
     
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  2. Deleted User

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    Well switching back and forth it does look a fair amount better (due to many reasons). The issues they had rang true for us, don't care about BP but editor! ARRRH!.

    Edit: Explanation of reasons below.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
  3. TheSniperFan

    TheSniperFan

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    You probably feel like the comparison images are total bullshit because they are (at least if you compare them directly what the author doesn't do).

    I wonder how the upper screenshot would have looked like if he took the time to:
    1. Change the quality settings from lowest to high (just look at those MiP maps)
    2. Enable antialiasing
    3. Make the screenshot at a proper resolution
    4. Replace some of the S***ty textures
    5. Create new objects/details that aren't there yet
    6. Spend some time tweaking the lighting
    7. Replace Unity's crappy default shaders with proper ones (their Lux counterparts for example)
    (Which is basically a list of things he did while switching to UE4)
    Guess what? The difference would be considerably smaller.

    Although Unity has its fair share of problems, those images are a weak comparison. Especially points 1-3 come off as cheap.
     
  4. bluescrn

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    Yeah, those comparison images are ridiculous - comparing low-res non-AA'd screenshots with broken lighting/shaders, low-res lightmaps and no postprocessing - to Unreal at 1080p with super-high-res shadowmaps, AA, bloom and DoF...

    With the possible exception of the shadows, I suspect Unity could match those new screenshots, if you turned everything up to 11, tweaked a few shaders, and ran it on a suitably powerful PC...

    And I can't agree with some of their positives with UE4 - as a coder, I don't want to have to deal with visual scripting or visual shader editors (which make it even easier to kill performance)

    There's a discussion of the article on Hacker News, which brings up some valid points, though: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8180201
     
  5. Deleted User

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    Well to me it looks like anisotropic filtering had been turned off (or on lower settings), the quality of the textures were sub par. You can easily get away with de-compressing them in true color for PC and Console without touching the edges in terms of performance. It also looks like it hadn't been baked in beast (but I've had issues with exporting too much to beast and Unity falling over), although I've managed to get some saucy looking lighting with Unity.

    Anti-aliasing isn't up to par with UE4, but what's with all them weird looking black lines? Looks like the shaders are messed up.

    I know Unity's rendering functionality and performance well, because that's pretty much all I spent my time tweaking and bought a mass array of third party tools. Whilst I'll stick by my statement and say the UE4 does look a lot better, the Unity one could look FAR FAR better as well.

    Then again, being honest the UE4 one could look better.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
  6. jp122

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    The screenshot comparison is fair because it's comparing what comes out of the box for both engines. With Unity, you have to spend $1500 to get post-processing effects, and that's at the very minimum
     
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  7. MadJohny

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    What about the mip map problems and the ultra low resolution textures, shadows and screenshot (look at those outlines how much pixelly it is)? Plus no AA
     
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  8. Aabel

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    $1500 to get the ability to do post processing. The post processing that ships with Unity pro isn't very pretty and doesn't compare to UE4. Same goes for the basic shaders.

    The point is artists are more independent in UE4 than they are in Unity.
     
  9. Deleted User

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    Still, point being you can do better than what's shown in that picture with Unity.. It's not hard to find examples.

    As much as I jump up on down sometimes, I'll also defend Unity for what it does right.
     
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  10. Aabel

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    Of course better can be done with Unity pro, but it requires additional investment in either asset store purchases or time from someone to write shaders and post effects.

    UE4 is just a friendlier enviroment for artists.
     
  11. Ostwind

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    I don't see the point bashing about one picture (even tho its very ugly) when rest of the post is well written and has a lot of valid points in it. Most of the post is not even about graphics that much but about workflow.
     
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  12. Dreamaster

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    LOL! Yeah they took some "effort" to make that first screenshot so bad.

    Here is a pic of some armor I'm working on for a UMA asset. I'm using a Marmoset Skyshop shader in this one, but even without it they can still look pretty cool.

    Screenshot 2014-07-24 22.06.09.png
     
  13. Silly_Rollo

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    That still doesn't compare to UE4. Comparing UE4 default to Unity loaded up with a bunch of glitchy asset store modifications is silly anyway.
     
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  14. TheSniperFan

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    I agree with you, but let's be fair here:
    Unity 4 is a last-gen engine. Comparing it to the likes of UE4 or CE is simply not fair. I mean what is to expect when one compares an outdated engine with the newest and hottest ones out there?

    In this whole engine debate there's just one important question for me: "What Unity 5 will bring to the table?" or "Will UT deliver or not?"
    So far it looks promising. I mean the video about the new physically based shading? Cannot complain. The new GUI editor? Looks sweet. The new audio mixer? Looks cool too (although I don't really care since we're using fmod studio which hopefully get's a Unity 5 version soon after release). And so on...

    Anyway, Unite is next week. So let's see what we learn there.
     
  15. Aabel

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    Get real, it's completely fair to compare Unity 4 to UE4. Unity 4 is what is available on the market now. UT charges good money for Unity 4 you better believe people are going to compare it against other commercial products. When Unity 5 is out on the market then it will make sense to compare it.
     
  16. Deleted User

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    I'm not comparing, because there is nothing to be compared. We are at the dawn of a new Era in 3D games, one that will be around for a fair few years to come. The only real winners out of this is us and how big a part Unity will play in the whole picture is yet to be determined.

    Can't wait for Unity 5.0,
     
  17. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Article reads like a bit of marketing rather than a genuine comparison. Because a genuine comparison it isn't, going by the 2 screenshots.
     
  18. CaoMengde777

    CaoMengde777

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    screenshot comparison is totally ridiculous

    hmm i didnt even know Unity had these negatives you guys are talking about... good to know,
    hopefully Unity 5 will be Really Nice!

    luckily, currently iam only interested in making "serviceable" looking graphics, and not "amazing" graphics..
    by the time im interested in amazing graphics Unity 5 should be out Yay ! :)
     
  19. ZJP

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    Big LOL. Rarely seen a comparative like that : totally oriented and bad faith.
     
  20. Jase-NZ

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    The Article is very interesting, looking at the Blue period section, the decision to move to Unreal was an emotional one. The rest of the article seems to be the justification for it. After all, if you don't drink the kool-aid then you realize, you've spend a lot of money and time.
     
  21. Peter Apple

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    When you have real tech. bugs, you are working on your own. Is this tool really worth $4500?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
  22. Justei

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    I feel like Unity 4 can't come close to UE4.
    There are several things that the comparison brings up that are actually very valid points!
    1. 32 bit editor, crashes ALL OF THE TIME
    2. Performance Issues, lets face it. Umbra does more damage than it helps (at least for us), and baking lighting for a complex scene is impossible because again, it crashes. Constant lag, glitching and other issues are a daily problem. We actually crash on average 10 times an hour, and sometimes more often than that.
    3. Physics are seriously problematic and flawed, we have so many physics bugs that we have to remove features so we don't kill the physics engine!
    4. Large scenes and unloading/loading scenes dynamically for a persistant large map gameplay is virtually impossible to do with quality.
    5. Team work is quite hard, and can easily mess up in bigger projects (but it's doable).
    6. Lets just say graphics aren't unitys strong suite at the moment. We can't even use render textures without issues and same goes for cubemapping on too many objects.
    7. And a lot more.
    Fortunately, Unity 5 fixes a LOT of these problems (if not all). And when that happens I feel like it can actually start comparing itself to UE4.

    And since Unity 4 has been around since 2012, it's obviously not going to be as good as an engine that came out to the public in march :/.

    However, I am really looking forward to Unity 5 and I hope that Unity 5 will allow me and my team to really upgrade our game to a different level in terms of performance and graphics and features for our players. Let's just hope it's possible to upgrade from 4.x to 5 without too many problems :).
     
  23. Deleted User

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    Well I just opened Unreal 4.4. and had to re-start the scene from scratch due to funky behaviour. It's happend in every release so far, if it's not Lightmass that goes weird it's something else. Good job I'm only evaluating it, if that happend mid project I'd be mighty miffed.

    These things happen, find a stable version like 4.2.2 of Unity and cling on for dear life :D.

    Then again, as others said it's not what happens it's how it's dealt with. Epic are good at dealing with bugs when you give them a heads up.
     
  24. Ricks

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    The lighting quality in the Unity screenshot is a joke. You can easily create better than this.
    They didn't even bother to get the lighting correct, so I won't even bother to read their article.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
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  25. Dantus

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    It seems that most of the critique will become obsolete with Unity 5. They clearly made the right decision to switch the engine for that project. I am sure that some of the issues could have been solved, but that isn't the case for critical ones like the 32 bit restriction.

    My impression is that Unity is improving. But it is still not at an acceptable level. In the past when you submitted a bug, you were not even informed whether they were able to reproduce it.
     
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  26. calmcarrots

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    I agree with a lot of points on that article but some things are total bull. Anyways, most problems that should have been fixed in Unity 4 are getting fixed in Unity 5 so I guess it's alright.
     
  27. TheSniperFan

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    Sorry, I should have made myself clearer on that one.
    I meant a comparison from a technical standpoint. Not stuff like price, value, availability.

    It's just like pointing out that the Xbox One has superior technology when compared to the PS3. Of course it has and there's no need to go in forums and bang on about it.

    UE4 > Unity 4? Of course! There's no arguing that. However, that question is nowhere nearly as interesting as "UE4 >/=/< Unity 5?"
    It's like saying "I'm going with Xbox this generation because Xbone > PS3."
     
  28. Pix10

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    It's not a very good comparison, not least because the Unreal version is clearly further along in texturing and modelling than the Unity version, and it appears they haven't discovered the anisotropic slider so their Unity textures look like sludge.

    Lighting-wise, Unreal does have the edge because it's material system and Lightmass are much closer together - helped in no small part by the PBR nature of their materials and quality of emissive surfaces. This is less "Unreal is better than Unity" than "Beast is S***".

    So yeah, Unity 5 should make a huge difference without tweaking lots of knobs.

    That still doesn't make a fair comparison though, because you can get similar results to those he's shown with a little know-how and effort.
     
  29. kondrup

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    When I read the article yesterday it was clear to me that the two screenshots was 100% incomparable, so enough about that. Not even sure if the author wanted to make that comparison..

    I think the high price is Unity's biggest issue at the moment. I will probably get my Rift in a couple of weeks and one of the reasons for buying it was to make VR demos in Unity but I learned some weeks ago that I need Unity Pro to create them :/

    The problem is that I can either pay 75$ a month or pay 1500$ for the full Unity Pro license. I am only doing this on a hobby level and will not earn money from the demos I make, so if I compare these prices to UDK who only charges 20$ a month it becomes very tempting to start looking more into UDK even though I have been using Unity for more than 4 years. In just one year the difference between the two monthly subscriptions would become: 900$ - 240$ = 660$

    - Think I might have talked myself into buying an UDK subscription ;)
     
  30. Imre

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    UDK is still free and you can download it from https://www.unrealengine.com/products/udk - not sure about Rift support.
    Subscription based engine is Unreal Engine 4 :)
     
  31. BIG-BUG

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    Right. Actually the article does in no way imply that those shots are made for comparision so there is no use in comparing the graphical quality based on these screen shots or blaming the author for not doing it right.
    I think the blog contains several valid points and is a good read, but there is nothing in there which wasn't discussed a thousand times now...
     
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  32. GiusCo

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    The most relevant info is that professional small-to-medium shops (3-10 guys) may find UE 4 better than Unity and have a shot... this is not novel though... UT just responded that they are not changing their pricing model because of that.
     
  33. kondrup

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    I can see I made a mistake by calling it UDK, I thought UDK was just a general name for the Unreal Engine. Before UDK3 and now UDK4, but I was wrong. In my post I was only referring to UE4 :)

    You are right, their development kit is free but UE4 cost 20$ pr. month.
     
  34. thedreamer

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    A few months ago, Epic say they gather the idea about new GUI

    they only took a few months to make new GUI System

    while we are still waiting for uGUI.

    Epic is too fast company but Unity is very slow company

    unity 5?? when? unreal is updated monthly. unreal Is already 4.4 when unity 5.0 is released also Unreal 5.0 will come.. Unreal Development speed is amazingly crazy
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
  35. Stormbreaker

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    Gotta give them credit for that, they've released 5 major updates in 5 months, that's one major update per month. It took Unity 6 months to jump from 4.3-4.5.
     
  36. TheSniperFan

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    I agree.
    The one thing I'm genuinely jealous about isn't feature related, it's the pace at which the engine is developed.
     
  37. HolBol

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    Those images are very bad for comparison. It's like they've tried to compare the best of UDK with the worst of Unity. Not a fair way to do things. You could get extremely similar to that UDK scene in Unity, with about the same amount of effort that they put into making it look bad.
     
  38. Deleted User

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    There's more too it than speed, stability has to be a factor as well which the issues I had in 4.3 are still in 4.4.

    Although I agree, whilst some tools will need time to mature at least it developed quick enough to encompass near everything a developer could want or need. It'd be perfect if Unity could find a middle ground.
     
  39. tiggus

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    Author never even mentions the screenshots in the article or condemns Unity for graphics reasons and half the replies in Unity thread obsessing about it, sounds about right for anything mentioning UE4 on Unity forums.
     
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  40. Ryiah

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    It won't go from 4.9 to 5.0. It will be 4.10 and so on.
     
  41. RockoDyne

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    Did I read the article right and were they trying to make a mobile game in unity? It would make more sense why there was the second class citizen complaint from the artist if it was an issue of finding good mobile shaders.

    I don't know. It just sounds like there were ten other things that happened to the project, not related to the engines, that colored the move.
     
  42. Arowx

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    Just looking at the Unity image, why do the 'concrete' blocks have black outlines?

     
  43. Deleted User

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    Shaders, I downloaded an asset pack that had a terrain "toon" shader with black outlines same as this. I had to find the dependency on the terrain and then delete it. Wasn't that hard to figure out.
     
  44. kablammyman

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    Ah yes, lets keep harping on the 2 "comparison" screen shots. Lets also ignore some valid criticisms this dev team has because the whole point of the blog post was graphical capabilities.

    Also, I do appreciate the optimism that comes with unity5...however, knowing unity's track record of over promising, and under delivering, what makes everyone so sure that unity5 will ACTUALLY match UE4? How do we know that things wont be truly "ready" until unity 5.5?
     
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  45. Deleted User

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    Well what's to talk about? We already know lack of 64-bit editor and various other tools makes Unity problematic to work with and most of it will be addressed in Unity 5.0.
     
  46. kablammyman

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    you are right, but as i edited my post to say:
    Also, while I agree many points the blog author brings up has been said many times (and i have experienced personally in my professional career using unity) I don't see people addressing any of the valid claims, potential fixes, or anything else. In the end, it all looks like a people are crying because 1 dev team decided that unity is not the bees knees. I know this is no where near a professional forum, but c'mon people...just because someone doesn't like unity, doesn't mean you have to stop liking or using it!
     
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  47. Ostwind

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    Nothing much really. This whole thread feels a bit disgraceful as people rage and cry over one image "comparison" in the blog and even the pic is titled as WIP. It was probably mainly added to fill up the blog. Doesn't matter how ugly it is when key thing, the text in the post is well written and has a point.
     
  48. Deleted User

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    This is why I went for the sub model, it allows you to upgrade free of charge and sure it's more expensive in the long run but I did my due diligence / plenty of research and knew potential blockages in the path (in short, at the time with UE4 being around the corner and whispers of upgrades on the cards, I kept my options open).

    Unity is still a maybe in my camp, but if gets to the point where it's not delivering what it promises to a respectable level I'm happy to drop it like a brick.
     
  49. jp122

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    But then it wouldn't be fair to compare the results of $3,000 spent (for Unity Pro and only 1 mobile platform) against $19/mo (for UE 4 and both Android and iOS, or $450 for 2 years, which is the average Unity release cycle)

    Even if it were a matter of better artwork and slightly more effort, UE4 would still win the comparison because it provides better materials to enhance artwork than Unity Free, and at a much cheaper price than Unity Pro.
     
  50. smd863

    smd863

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    The actual cost of UE4 is the royalties not the subscription price. You can pay $19 per developer for only one month and release a game (or many games) with the engine. You simply owe royalties on all revenue.

    A great deal for hobbyists releasing free games, but it gets progressively worse the more revenue you expect to earn (until, possibly, you start making enough to get into custom royalty-free licensing).
     
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