About Okino Polytrans

Update about my review: 2 years after I tried to get the .X -> FBX converted downloaded again because I erased it. The owner forgot that he gave me this plugin and asked me about $400. This purchase was a good experience turns to be one of the worse experience with a company ever. The man behind this software is stubborn and won't, even in front of evidence let me download what I have purchased before. He apparently didn't take note of my entire purchase and refuses to give me updates, support or even just a link to the product I paid at this time: AVOID THIS COMPANY. The product is good, but you will get screwed.


I've always had problems converting my models and always found Okino Polytrans (http://www.okino.com) on my way: but I never purchased it.

Recently I had to convert DirectX Skinned mesh + animations to FBX and I couldn't find any program that would do the job. After 2 days of testing every solution I went back to the Okino website.

I (again) downloaded the Okino Polytrans demo and found that the FBX exporter was not in the demo.

I left rude a message to Okino's support, asking how I could test it, if the proper translators are not included into the demo?

The author of the program responded in these terms:
"As a new user to Okino you have to know who I am. I'm the super-guru of the 3D
conversion industry"

We exchanged several emails and it seems that he is working 24/7! I sent him a mesh, and he sent it back converted to FBX and working perfectly 2 minutes after!

I decided to finally buy this program (about 500 USD)
It was the most complicated purchase I've ever made online, fax, signature it took 2 days.

Finally I got the product and the FBX exporter.

Okino Polytrans converts PERFECTLY any Direct X, whatever it is animated, skinned, with errors, and make an optimized FBX that loads in Unity and works.

I think it is the only tool to do these kind of things and I though Robert Lansdale deserved some homage for developing this masterpiece for more than 20 years!

 

I just wanted to follow up to Nikko's posting since it exhibits a number of common misconceptions that pervade how some people approach my product. I want to augment it with what most of my customers would write instead. Many people feel they are the first to use the product, but I have tens and tens of thousands of production companies using it every year and the concept of it 'not working' or even 'partially working' just does not exist.

1) If you want to totally ignore the rest of my message (which I suggest) then the important part is that I/we/Okino have provided all the defacto cross conversion software for 2 decades now. I have long supported Unity and Nikko is not the first person to find out that I have a pipeline into the Unity software. By late 1997 I had sold to every 3D game company in the market, so that has and had been a well supported aspect of our software since those days. That includes guaranteed conversion of skinning + animation data, our forte and pioneering effort in the DCC world. If you don't believe this statement, I'll convert any source file to a destination format for you, for the file formats we support (lansd@okino.com). Our newer releases to the production markets have been Collada, DWF-3D, SketchUp, XAML-3D and U3D, and I jumped on the FBX bandwagon from its earliest Kaydara days.

------

Long follow-up.. skip if you wish...

2) As explained in very long emails to Nikko, we have pioneered and dominated the professional 3D conversion market since the 90's. I have invested 10's of millions of dollars into the development of the package Nikko is using today. It is not a one person package but written by dozens of main developers, each one on a specific format. The animation + skinning portion has several dozen man years in its development and hence I easily and daily mention "It'll work error free". The problem is, most people on forums have come to use free software and not a package like ours which is completely dedicated to pro-development and usage.

3) This software has been targeted at all high end production studios, so it has been made to work in the worst of cases a decade ago. For those reading this forum, that means handling the worst case data, be it skinning, animation, scene data, etc. between all the major 3D packages (MAX, Maya, XSI, Soft-3D, LW, FBX, Collada, DirectX, etc). http://www.okino.com/conv/skinning.htm. In other words, this is not any newly written package, but something developed daily since 1988. Over the period of /years/ we rarely see any errors or problems, and that's just the reality I live. General public perception would say otherwise I suppose.

4) Nikko's comments about "it not working" simply does not exist in my vocabulary. I can't even fathom that occurring in Okino software and would never go to sleep should such a problem exist. Here is the part for all the logical readers: if I sold software which didn't work, then why would it become pervasive and used in all production studios?

5) When someone says it doesn't work, that means they didn't take the 60 seconds to write to me and ask what they need to learn. Nikko did that and within an hour I calmed him down and showed him that the source data just needs a Z-flip during import, a common everyday sort of thing. Unfortunately, in this day and age, people kick the tires of the car but never think to write to the engineer who created the car asking how to operate it. I would never think of writing to the developer of the software I buy because they would not write back? Right? My name is at the top of Okino.com for that reason -- write to me and you'll have an answer within minutes typically.

6) And yes, I am the super guru of 3D conversion software. In the world there has to be one or more such people and I can fill those shoes of one of those main experts. I receive 50-200 emails per day from the production market (be it ILM, Disney, NASA, Airbus, etc.) and have answers to all questions. I am not a hacker sitting in his bedroom, but the owner, founder, CTO of Okino. I oversee, manage and co-develop all of Okino software, and answer all tech support, so I can explain conversions from the bit-level of any file format up to referring to any past customer experience over the last 21 years. This is not a hollow statement. The problem is that many people are just not used to writing to a large company and getting their veteran CTO to respond to all their questions. I do it, rather then 19 year old kids, because I run a very respectable company.

7) It does not take 2 days to get the software. Suzanne Phillips does a turn-around in 1 hour or less, 10am to 5:30pm EST. Nikko's order was processed within 6.5 minutes upon receipt of his online order placement. As for ordering, I had already long discussed this with Nikko. I do not sell to home users but only to corporate companies and professionals. My ordering system is geared to those customers. Anyone needing online ordering can do so through a dozen resellers, including Digimation, NovEdge and Oak Corp. My only main argument and discussion to date on such a matter has been with Nikko, but his argument is valid relative to his own perceptions and requirements for ordering. That however, is not how I came about to create this system over the years. Everything is done for specific reasons. I am, however, open to any and all suggestions and those suggestions are most often how Okino software evolves.

8) And yes, as I openly promote, I am available almost 16-18 hours a day, 7 days a week, to provide instant Okino tech support, as well as tapping into my 21 years of knowledge base. Just read www.okino.com/conv/users.htm to see what my company is all about. It's run for our users and to bridge all the 3D packages, in an error free manner. Okino is not a stone-walled company (like those I buy software from), but run by people who personally communicate directly with each of our users. If you come to our booth each year at Siggraph, and you are a registered user, I'll most often know you by name or association.

9) From day to day experience, many people have little personal confidence in 3D data translation programs. That's fair and understood. So, throw out that pre-conceived notion and remember that I personally guarantee proper conversion between all of our supported formats. That just comes about from the long use of our converters in industry. Nikko's FBX + DirectX conversion pipeline is one of those we have long supported well. Also, most importantly, we don't "convert from DirectX <--> FBX", which other programs may do, but instead we have a long tool chain inbetween any of our 2 import/export formats. Nikko's conversion works because of our "Arctic" engine written by Joe H. at Okino. This "Arctic" engine is the 'guarantee' aspect of our skinning/animation conversions, where his SDK fixes up all known issues reported to us to date. In particular, exporting skinning + animation from LW, MAX and Maya is particularly fraught with errors, but I can openly say that our code has long handled all known issues. Someone would have to prove otherwise.

Thanks for letting me clarify and expand upon Nikko's comments. If anyone does need conversion help, or example conversions into Unity, then just drop me a quick email.

 

I never had problems converting my models

...as long as game engine have been using simple file formats

I am just a bloody amateur

Really for just 500 usd ? :twisted:

Some years ago I decided to make my .ms3d (MilkShape ) converter for my own opengl

I took one week ( with the help of a book ) and it perfectly worked


Final comment

I do hope Unity3d and other engines would finally realize that these bloated file formats (FBX,COLLADA etc) are just an msin issue
They have been designed for movies not for simple animation for games

How can a guy seriously spend 500 usd just to import a file in his engine ? :evil:

 

haha, I understand that a bloody amateur may not need this tool, but it is good to know that at least it exists, just in case someday you become a real PRO with an attitude and a big ego and you find that for a 6 figures budget you cannot convert this damn files from a PC game to an iPhone game and that the only solution is to create a converter, or to re-animate the meshes?

Now I have all the models that works in FBX format and I accept the budget and do the game convertion to the iPhone... problem solved.

(note : I'm not affiliated with Okino and the author of Polytrans is someone with a lot of personality as you can read - his answer was unexpected lol - , but he is dedicated in providing a service of quality that is well worth the $500 in my opinion, maybe expensive for a casual developer but for a pro who have a budget and investors, it is just one more line to be included in the development costs)

 

Dont take it personally, you are of course free to spend your many as you wish
I meant that bloody amateurs do not have any other chance for the time being
I meant that Unity3d should support also simple file formats exported by economic animation packages
Not to mention that even high end packages have problems to export FBX

Apart from that I wonder what kind of benefit you can expect using FBX for an IPhone game

FBX and Collada support a lot of advanced feature which are very important for movies and , in part , also for games but I have my doubts that FBX can be of use in this case

 

removed: I got screwed by this company, no update, no support no way to re-download my purchase.

 

There really is no choice. If you want animated meshes, that is what you use. Also, it's not like the final build contains FBX files; that's only what Unity imports, and then stores everything in its own format.

--Eric

 

I believe the Obj and Collada importers in Unity go through the FBX SDK, so they're getting that for free. It also means those importers are only as good or bad as the FBX SDK support. I had a problem importing some OBJ files (converted via Polytrans) into Unity, and looks like it was an FBX SDK problem (duplicated it with the standalone FBX converter and found a mention on the Autodesk forum)

 

Would I have this same comment as you if I had to purchase Okino software? Indeed I would! I know what the value of $395 is to non-company purchasers. But like I said, perception is everything when it comes to my company, my product and my life. Let me show you the flip side of your argument:

1) Many consumers relate the cost of a product to its "value", or what they think it should be worth. Fair enough, I spent as much for my dish washer as I felt it was worth. But with PolyTrans, or any software product, you are actually paying for the cost to the development company to bring that product to you, not so much its apparent value. US$395 is a VERY LOW entry level price for this level of complex software. What I should be charging is $2000 and then I'd actually make some money. But I'll be honest that I've kept this product at US$395 since 1996 so that entry-level people can afford it. This is not BS but my true intent for the product.

2) This product costs me several million to develop per year and all sales goes back into development. I don't drive a Porche or have a fancy house since all the revenue has gone to bring a top quality product to market. The simple UI intentionally hides one of the most ultra-complex products in the 3D graphics market, and that is no marketing hype. It has a super-set of features of the best 3D animation/modeling/rendering products on the market, since to convert 3D data between programs you have to fully emulate those programs first (that's the hard part of writing professional conversion software).

3) If your comment was made relative to a professional game developer, then it would be incorrect in a specific context. If you want to get specific data to convert between two 3D programs or file formats then I can tell you there's only a few programs which could do it, if at all. You would spend money if and when you have an unsolvable conversion problem. PolyTrans costs real money because it costs a whollop of money to write the software, such that I can openly state 'it always works'. You get what you pay for in terms of any good quality software purchase.

4) My comments on the forum are geared toward those who simply have a major conversion problem to overcome and must find a solution, or else it'll cost time and money. That's the core reason anyone would spend money on my PolyTrans product -- it solves problems when time is of the essence. If you have infinite time then I'm sure you might be able to make a conversion process work with free components after a few years of work. I never force this software onto home users or casual 3D users, since I know 99% of them will pirate the software anyway (and that's just a part of reality).

Anyway, thanks for letting me post these comments. You'll find via an Internet search that I do not do forum postings but keep to direct email communication. It is super rare if you'll find me posting to forums, meaning that I don't use forums to promote Okino software. My message here was more of a follow up to Nikko's comments. I tend to be very verbose in my communications.

 

Wait.. Unity will impot collada? Am i reading this right, cause the website doesn't list this.

http://unity3d.com/unity/features/asset-importing

 

It's mentioned here (under Other Applications)

http://unity3d.com/support/documentation/Manual/Meshes.html

 

Thats good news, but the unity team might want to add that to the other page as well. I would have been exporting collada instead of FBX if i knew.

 

But surely your best quality is your modesty.

 

There is an alternative, in my opinion

Unity3d should simply support other file formats beside FBX , as simple as that :wink:

You are right when saying that there are only a couple of reliable FBX converters
The point is that FBX (The name stands for FilmBox)is a redundant file formats for game programming
It contains a lot of informations which are of no use for us

You can make fantastic games using MilkShape or .x

You would agree that you dont need to be a guru to develop a MilkShape or a .x converter

You spoke of professional applications

Unity3d 2.5 Indie costs 200 euro

Does it make sense, in your opinion, to spend 500 usd just for a converter ?

This is what I meant in my previous post

I do hope Unity3D want to fix this issue in the next 2.6 release

P.S.

What about an agreement between okino / Unity3d ?
Registered Unity3d users are allowed to buy your product at a special price, I am prepared to spend up to 200 usd

 

I hate reading spats and try not to walk into them when I can, but for what it's worth...

Converting files between DCC packages is a headache in the games/cgi business. Formats such as FBX (and more recently Collada) try to address this, but you'll find that the implementation of importers and exporters differs between packages and so sooner or later you're going to run into problems.

I first used Polytans ten years ago (still have the box) and I can tell you now that, back then, without Okino there'd have been many, many tears, lost hours and a great deal of wasted money as consequence.

That was then, this is now, but there's still a place for products like Polytrans, because it's independent of the bugs and foibles in the DCC importers/exporters. Collada is bloody awful and FBX, while getting better, is still subject to breakages. Making sure everyone uses the right version alone can be a nuisance.

Unity's approach to using FBX is nothing short of lovely. But when you talk about getting something into Max/Maya that someone has given you, that's where it pays to have tools like Polytrans at hand. It may seem expensive, but if your time is worth a measly $10/hour that's the equivalent of a few days of struggling with another method (and without the quick support of Okino, as nikko discovered to his benefit).

These days I get by because I've developed work-arounds and have a pretty good understanding of file formats, but if I came to an impasse next week, I'd be straight onto the Okino website. (haha, no I'm not affiliated...).

Time is money and stress is years off your life. Why make it harder than it needs to be?

That's my ten cents anyway.

 

It is what I meant
If you dont want to run into trouble The golden rule is ;
" Make it simple ( but not that simple )

FBX and Collada are very complicated files

 

That's the point... Polytrans does try to make it simple; which is why it's well worth the asking price.

 

You can make things even simpler if you get started from a simple file format rather than from a complicated one
Is FBX file format strictly necessary for game programming ?
Nope

 

You're missing my point, which I think can only be fully appreciated if you've been on the sharp-end of a big, complex production composed of lots of packages (and different versions of those) being used to create lots of different types of data. It's not all verts and keyframes you know.

In that sense FBX was chosen for what you're asking for: Simplicity...In the pipeline.

That's all I have for the subject anyway as I'm lucky enough not to have any problems with it so maybe can't be objective to all situations, but if you really want to discuss the merits of more file format options, a dedicated thread would probably be less confusing

 

I have never been arguing about polytrans price
in his first post nikko wrote

" I had to convert DirectX Skinned mesh + animations to FBX and I couldn't find any program that would do the job "


Same for me
Should Unity3d support also .x or MilkShape , Nikko and others would save 500 usd since you dont need a guru to write a converter for those much simpler but
exhaustive , as far as games are concerned, file formats

I do hope that Unity3d would take into duly consideration this situation in the next releases

 

Now that I've paid for Polytrans I would say no haha.
But it is true that if Unity wants to compete with XNA and if they want XBOX target platform, they will certainly have to import direct X files.

The thing is that Okino spent years of development to fix lot Direct X weird implementations in some application and I bet Unity has something else more important to do than re-doing what Okino did before.

Probably the best solution for Unity would be to license the Okino engine and use it as importer.

 

Thanks nikko

I suppose ( just guessing ) that Unity3d are not so keen about this issue since most of Unity members are Mac users

I have developed games, as an hobbyest programmer, for 5 years
Some months ago,I switched to Unity3d

While I was enthusiastic , and still I am , for the engine itself I found my self in an unpleasent situation

Same as Nikko, I tried to convert my models ( mainly in .x file format ) into FBX
None of the economic convertes is reliable

If Unity does not fix this issue, what shall I do ?

Should I throw away all my animated files ?
Should I spend 500 usd for the Okino converter ?
Or maybe, should I switch back to my old engine ?

 

About XNA it actually work with FBX file quite well, so no need to run into Dx messy format at all ^^

 

the x format isn't messy
its actually dead simple with distinct chunks for every property (similar to collada)

the problem is that many exporters are messy.
aside from the fact that X has been a stone age format since its first day of existance.
it does not even support basic DX features like multitexturing and multiple UV sets

 

ok, some file formats can not be at the state of art but they work
While many FBX exporters / converters are not reliable

I can survive without the second UV coord but what shall I do if I can not even load my model in the engine ?

This is also a matter of fact which Unity3D should be taken in duly consideration

Dont you think that an alternative to FBX should be available ?

About the supposed superiority of FBX , please have a look at spiralgear's thread

 

So at the end don't we end up with the same behaviors, even is format is clean , but you have to fight from engine to engine or 3d app to 3D app because they all have their "own" way to interpret this format ?

When you work as an artist you don't want to spend ton of hours dealing with a damn export / import problem, this completely kill the workflow, and if your not "tech" enough to get your hand dirty at looking over that yourself you dont have so many choice ,

Or you use a format and 3D app that work in your pipeline, and considering Unity , and other 3D app , fbx is fine, i never had a problem that completely block myself , it's work really well either from maya or XSI and certainly form other app.

Or you buy tool like Okino which I guess target to make the convert process if needed smoother.

Or you wait that the engine developper team build an importer that fit your need ( you can wait for age sometimes ..)

Or what..change engine..?

About superority of Fbx , i dont think this is the purpose here.
And for what bring on the table like possiblity collada or such format , who 's here is actually using 100% of that features in a daily basis work !?

I call Dx messy because having experience with it and comparing to Fbx now , this day and night in term of comfort of use , that maybe a totally different story for somebody else.

For now Unity use Fbx, so use it or i dont know put unity team under pressure to get a DX import or whatever.
And as i say before XNA have use of Fbx format too , so that wont be really a starter here to make Direct X format feature in unity , well just my opinion.

 

Back again

As Dreamora has re-iterated, the issue is usually with the exporters.

Collada btw was started by Sony for the PS3, and was a real pain compared to Unity FBX (this is why I don't like Collada...it's not a bad format in itself). Sony dumped it onto Feeling Software (or Kronos Group, and the plug-ins on FS...it wasn't too clear at the time) anyway, and we had to wait months (or pay more bucks than Okino ask for) to get updated plug-ins for Max Maya, which were going through Autodesk's version reshuffle mid-life crisis at the time.

Internally we have our own Collada to binary converter and it's been an on-going concern for years as we find holes, support new versions and then new app nuances. Pain in the backside I call it, but that's the price you pay if you want to make games. "Simple" sounds lovely, but it's not simple if it puts a stranglehold on your artists.

But the great thing about things like FBX and Collada is that they're open-ended. You can support almost any kind of data you want to. Painful but cool too. Weird huh.

 

Just a follow up of my purchase with this company: AVOID at ALL COST.

I purchased PolyTrans + DCC in 2009 and my purpose was to convert direct .x files to .fbx.
I lost the Direct X plugin and asked to get a link to it to Mr Robert Lansdale who claims to be the "never failing guru of 3D conversion".

Epic Failure!

After several emails, he ask me to pay the DCC package AGAIN, because apparently he didn't saved my record correctly. Even in front of evidences (long emails where he try to translate a model for me which convinced me to buy the product), even after I sent him the receipt, and the emails I exchanged with him before I am in that situation: it will cost me +$300 to get this single plugin that was previously included in my purchase.

Now I am in trouble because I need to update an App, using a feature only possible with his product.

My advice: never deal with this company. They are greedy and unreliable, and the owner is the most outrageously arrogant person I have ever met .

 

Bummer. But honestly, based on your and Lansdale's initial posts on this thread (along with the macabre site for the company) alarm bells were ringing loudly and incessantly. While this may be at your expense, I couldn't but laugh at this guy's attitude and how no one seemed to bother seeing his bullshit through.

 

My mutual Okino/Unity users mentioned that most of the 500k Unity users are students and hobbyists. This would explain the sheer lack of respect you have for the "elders" in this industry.

Since I do not wish to repeat my proper response to Nikko's continued unwarranted comments, I'll have everyone read my proper response here. Nikko needs to stop being my one and only worst nightware user, which all started with him in 2009 on this Unity forum.

http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/64...scaling-to-0.01-an-option?p=617572#post617572

 

Unwrap3D is a really good cheap program that does a good job of converting between most realtime formats including collada, fbx etc.

I've used Polytrans in the past, it was a life saver at a studio I worked at years ago that was making a transition from Lightwave to 3ds max and Maya and needed to share some assets. It was expensive for an individual and support was a bit sparse but the product was the best solution for what we needed at the time.

Been about 10 years since then so I can't really comment about now.

 

lansd, I'm rarely rude or anything but I think you got issues mate. Tens of millions of dollars to convert a file? give me a break. Super guru? sorry, but you're not. You convert files. That is all.

Grow up.

If you have a big wad of cash show some humility along with it cos you've just lost tonnes of customers even posting in this thread with that ego. Elders? I might be pushing 40, but I don't talk down to people younger than me. I suggest you don't either - and yes I've been programming since the 80s.

I'm not impressed with your hot air at all.

As for Nikko, you're silly for spending 500 on a file converter. I can't believe you even did that. Or anyone in this day and age. Then you go on this huge forum rant. Sigh.

The pair of you just wasted 10 minutes of my life that I won't get back. You're as bad as each other.

.x is a dead stinky old file format, FBX is better, move on from the past people. Want proof? well autodesk owns the majority of the world's leading industry standard 3D packages and they say it is. Thats good enough. For $500 you could have got it modelled from scratch. Try using a proper 3D package that deals with FBX and move on.

You don't need .x files to work with XNA. What are you smoking? you can use any file format in the world, you just need to read the mesh in yourself. And if you wanted to use FBX, then guess what? XNA supports that too.

 

I suggest using Frag Motion it is good and cheep (50$ not 500$

http://www.fragmosoft.com/