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A non-violent game about Gandhi and core loops

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by DanielDemidov, Apr 23, 2020.

  1. DanielDemidov

    DanielDemidov

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    Good afernoon everybody!

    I'm fairly new to this forum, although I've been trying to create games on Unity since 2015.
    If it is possible, I'd like to listen to the community opinion in terms of the following.

    Right now I'm trying to create a turn-based strategy about Mahatma Gandhi. The goal is to free India in 200 turns.
    I've tried a lot of different concepts, including card-based mechanics, classical resources management etc.
    All these attempts failed.
    Now I realized that the problem is that I don't have a clear idea of what the game's core loop should like. The core mechanic.
    I though I could just translate Gandhi's actions into easy and understandable game mechanics but it seems it doesn't work like this...

    I've identified criteria for the project but it didn't help in shaping the core mechanic.

    What should I do in this situation?
    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    What were "Ghandi's actions"?

    What is your purpose for making this game? What is your "essential experience"? What do you want a player to feel when they're playing?
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
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  3. DanielDemidov

    DanielDemidov

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    Thanks for the reply!
    1. Spreading ideas of satyagraha, controlling the movement of India's independance, negotiating withe the Empire
    2. Gaining experience and, if possible, releasing it
    3. I know C#, a bit of Javascript, Java, can draw static maps and write texts...
    4. I want the player to feel the global scape of what is happening, to feel that his decisions can influence millions of people and can make great crowds all over India to stand up and take action. But the player should also feel how hard it is to prevent India from beginning a war for freedom and avoid violence. I also wanna the player to feel historical flavour and atmosphere of India and the the colonial era.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
  4. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    Sorry, when I said "essential experience" I was referring to a term by Jesse Schell in his book on game design (http://deck.artofgamedesign.com/#/menu/2/?lang=en).

    When I say "Ghandi's actions" I mean that literally. What physical actions did he take? That can inform what your player should be doing.

    Did he give speeches? If so, you could incorporate that as a gameplay mechanic. Offhand I'm thinking about something like Deus Ex Human Revolution's dialog battles --

    --where you say lines and someone's opinion changes based on that. For a speech to a large crowd, you might have multiple factions who all react to what you say differently, and you must adequately appease each faction, with consequences for failing to do so (as an example, if you sound too radical the government faction might label you an extremist and have you jailed and executed).

    Have you played or seen Stardock's The Political Machine? I haven't played any recent edition, but you might look to that game for some inspiration.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
  5. DanielDemidov

    DanielDemidov

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    Thanks for the link, will look at it a bit later.
    Well, I thought about adding speeches as a separate mechanic, but then...
    I read many articles about game-design and about how do you finish your first (and this is my first, in fact) game and...
    From what I've read, I've drawn several conclusions:
    1. The first project should be as simple in terms of development and design as possible. Ideally, one should be able to finish its prototype within a few days.
    2. Mechanics themselves should be prioritised - like one core mechanic which has 1-2 additional and they create a game loop.

    And, honestly, I can't imagine how to make the mechanic of speeches simple. The only way I can see it is that we've to add several factions, each with their own preferences and interests. Then +100500 variants of different parts of speeches so that the player has something to choose from. Different themes of speeches. Their influence on these factions. And all this sounds... a bit complicated.

    One more idea is to make them generic, say, "make a speech on discrimination!" which will give various bonuses depending on the character's experience etc. It sounds better, though, what will be challenging in this system?
    The player then will have to:
    1. Collect the necessary mana ponts
    2. Choose the speech type
    3. Spend mana

    I feel there's probably something wrong with my logic here, so... Do I approach this issue correctly?
    This may sound a bit like over-thinking about simple things, but in fact I just wanna understand the core and reasons of my problem
     
  6. DanielDemidov

    DanielDemidov

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    Also, to make things clearer - the game is a turn-based strategy. I already have a map, a calendar system, some basic UI etc...
     
  7. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    I think keeping things simple is a good idea. I also think the idea could be done fairly easily.

    Give speech on discrimination:

    > Support
    > Denounce
    > Abstain

    Hindu nationalist (Support:-2, Denounce:+1, Abstain:-1), British government (Support:+1, Denounce:-1, Abstain:0)

    Something along those lines. If the British government score gets too low...perhaps you're jailed, but that raises your standing with another faction. If the Hindu nationalist score gets too low...well...you know what happened. And apologies for being morbid, but along those lines, perhaps death isn't the end - perhaps depending on how you died and your faction levels, India changes in various ways.

    You could get more complex if you wanted. sub-parties who make up factions. Multi-part speeches with generic lines ("Today we must stand against/defend X" / "[faction name] threatens the fabric of our culture"). This is just one example.
     
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  8. DanielDemidov

    DanielDemidov

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    So, the core loop then will be:
    1. Choose theme of the speech
    2. Choose speech style
    3. Get bonuses and use them
    4. Repeat
    ?

    Now, I've got one idea. What if such a game is based on "key location"? These could be anything from the colonial
    administration in Delhi to Gandhi's ashram in Akhmedabad or the markets of Bombay. The player can "use" these locations. For instance, in Bombay he would establish contact with Indian traders and may gain their support, in
    Delhi he could make a speech etc.
    The cool thing is that all these things could be represented as one mechanic under different names for each key location. This would in fact require only one C# class and may work efficiently.

    Then as for parameters and variables, I though of something like this:
    1. Inspiration ponts. They are strictly limited and can be used to perform all that stuff in key locations
    2. Supporters. Key locations may give them as well as some other things.

    Parameters:
    1. Popular support. The more it is, the longer will your supporters resist. But if it's too high, this means they are fanatics and can behave terribly.
    3. The British Empire influence.
    4. The British Empire hostility. The more it is, the greater is the chance that the British will put Gandhi to jail or react
    brutally after his actions.

    The player will also have a special mechanic "start satyargaha" which will be using supporters in order to reduce the influence of the British Empire in India.

    So, the player wins when he declares independance. And he can do this when the BE influence is low and he has
    a lot of supporters all over India.

    Something like this. It sounds like a nearly complete concept, although, I have a feeling it still has some drawbacks.
    And I still can't figure out how to make the satyagraha mechanic interesting...
     
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  9. DanielDemidov

    DanielDemidov

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  10. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    Speeches could be just one of a few activities. You might also have fasting protests for a specific issue (which subsequently would increase/decrease faction standings based on their perception of the issue) (Edit: for this you might make it so the player can stop or start the fast at any time, and the longer they go the greater impact it has, but at the risk of them dying), or reactions to events (like someone asking if you support joining the British army in a world war for example).

    Sounds like you've got a pretty clear path forward. Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
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  11. DanielDemidov

    DanielDemidov

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    Thanks a lot for your support!
    Will try to make it real soon :)
     
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  12. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    i'd treat it like a narrative game. like a visual novel or old school adventure game. Things happen, you make a decision. Each decision goes into a tree so there is many possible outcomes.
     
  13. DanielDemidov

    DanielDemidov

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    Well, thanks for the reply, though, I tend to think a narrative game means a lot of content, which is hardly possible to achieve in the first project...
     
  14. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Are you familiar with board games? Modern board games do a fantastic job of abstracting concepts so that you can have interesting activities around a theme without necessarily having to implement the details of those activities.

    I'd suggest checking out a few, such as Dominion and the Firefly board game, and maybe some of the Elder Sign games. These all do a great job of abstracting complex things into simple implementations.
     
  15. DanielDemidov

    DanielDemidov

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    Hm, will take a look at them, thanks a lot!
    So, abstract mechanics (board-game style) in computer games aren't bad, are they?
     
  16. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    It depends what you do and how you do it. The key point is to understand different ways you can abstract things and how they impact player activities and choices.

    For instance, a speech mechanic could be about picking a topic and checking alignment with various things, as was described as above. But does that represent the whole speech? For instance, a speech could be formed of multiple phases, each with their own mechanic: Choosing your message (faction alignment?), then delivering the speech well (gain supporters by matching reactions?), then handling questions afterwards (choose who to accept questions from, and answers give you bonuses until next round?).

    The neat thing about board games is that the mechanics are necessarily easy to implement (the players have to do all of the "computing" as they play) and are 100% transparent. So for a designer it's a really good way to examine how mechanics and themes come together and support each other, or don't.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
  17. DanielDemidov

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    Well, maybe something like "Diplomacy" and a bit of "Monopoly" would be nice?
     
  18. angrypenguin

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    Since you raised Monopoly, what meaningful choices does the player make in that game? ;)
     
  19. DanielDemidov

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    Well, whether to buy a tile or not :)
     
  20. angrypenguin

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    There's that, and there's how much to bid when someone else can't buy a property. Pretty sure that's it. And I'm pretty sure that at least one of those has been objectively solved.

    As a result it doesn't make for a particularly interesting set of mechanical interactions. There aren't many choices, they are very simple ones, and once players have figured out the optimal strategy the entertainment comes largely from tension derived from luck. (And drama arising from the bidding part. ;))

    Try breaking down Monopoly as far as you can, and then a more complex board game. What decisions are players making? What is the range of options they could select for each one? What are the influencing factors on those decisions? What are the immediate and long term effects of the decisions?
     
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  21. DanielDemidov

    DanielDemidov

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    I´ve got an idea that since the mechanics of most strategies are in some ways some kind of a heritage from board games, then I can make a list of all board games' mechanics.

    Then it lead me to an idea that trying to invent a game mechanic out of nothing is really hard, therefore, it is much nicer to just pick some basic mechanics from the list and combine them with each other so the combination is engaging.
    Is it really so or making such a list won't help with my problem?
     
  22. DanielDemidov

    DanielDemidov

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    Yep, still trying to make out how to develop this thing...
    Thought adding limitations during the design process might be useful, so came up with these:
    - One core mechanic + max 2 supporting mechanics
    - Prototype to be created in 2 days (max)
    - Not content-heavy
    - No AI - so the challenge will be presented by events (?)
    - The game should give a feeling of grand-scale actions, have Indian and historical atmosphere
    - Easy to learn, hard to master approach

    But.. still can't imagine a nice core mechanic here that would suit the idea and be easy to implement...
    What should I do?
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
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  23. angrypenguin

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    What have you done so far?

    People don't just start magically knowing how to design a game. Just do something, then play it and see if it's good, it sucks, or is somewhere in the middle. Then change it and/or start again. It is perfectly normal to have a bunch of attempts that don't work out before hitting on something that's ok.

    Get something playable, and then go from there. It doesn't have to be electronic, use paper if it's faster for you.

    Except for the Indian / historical one, these are all arbitrary.

    A couple of things to think about:
    1. Get clear on the intent of the game. Games are about interaction, so what kind of interactions (eg: decisions) do you want people to be participating in, and how do you want them to feel about those? Is there something you want them to learn or be persuaded of, is it just about having fun, or somewhere in the middle? If you're not clear on your direction then nothing else will come together.

    2. Identify the different types of actions which Ghandi took, and/or the decisions he made. What else could he have done in various situations? Depending on your intent you could identify various different Ghandi-like actions (eg: protest) as well as various non-Ghandi-like actions (eg: riot). These actions for the basis of what the player can do, and once you've got a good set of actions / decisions you can start building a context in which they are interesting to use.

    Note that this will be an iterative process. It could be that you come up with what seem to be an interesting set of actions and it turns out they don't play well. But at that point you have a context in which to make and try out changes to improve them.
     
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  24. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    agree with penguin - plan as much as you can but you cant figure it all out. Get in there and throw some punches, you'll figure more out once you're knee deep in it.

    Just come up with any wild idea, design it as simple as you possibly can, and then through playtesting you find more ways to simplify it further.
     
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  25. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Read this: https://conceptartempire.com/intro-to-thumbnail-sketching/

    I know that it is talking about art, but exactly the same stuff applies to game design. You are developing concepts, and you will have a bunch of concepts that don't work along the way.

    In art, thumbnailing is about getting the ideas out of your head to where your eyes can see them in a quick, simple form to do early evaluation. You should be doing exactly the same thing with your game concepts - make something super simple and playable so you can interact with it and decide whether or not you like the direction. That can be on a piece of paper with board game tokens. It can be with hand-written decks of cards. It can be linked slides in PowerPoint. Whatever. Just make it quick.

    Importantly, it's perfectly ok for a bunch of those early "sketches" to be junk. That's cool. You don't know it's junk until you've got it out of your head and looked at it.

    Basically, this thing is not going to jump out of your head fully formed. It hasn't in the 14 months since this thread was opened, and it won't if you give it another 14 months. If you want to do it, then do it. :)
     
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  26. DanielDemidov

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    Thanks for the answer!

    1. Well, ideally I would like the game to tell Gandhi´s story (and, obviously, the story of India) - non-violence movement etc. The game surely has to be fun, but not only that. If I may put it like this, I'd like to add some educational elements and philosophy. So it's not only about 'how to free India in an efficient way', it should be also about 'what type of society one wants to shape at the end'
    2. So I will still need a huge set of actions? I mean, the scope of the game...
     
  27. TonyLi

    TonyLi

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    Take a look at the political simulation game Suzerain for some gameplay ideas.

    Since this is your first game, I think making a physical card game is a smart first step. You can iterate paper prototypes like these very quickly, and it's easier to get playtesters since you can take the deck of cards anywhere and enlist friends/nearby people to play a round.

    Also, since you want to add some educational and philosophical elements, short blurbs on cards are more digestible for players than huge blocks of text.

    Once your physical card game prototype is fun to play, you can translate it into a digital game. There are even some good digital card game frameworks on the Asset Store to give you a head start. They take care of the drudgery framework so you can focus on the creative aspects of your game.
     
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  28. DanielDemidov

    DanielDemidov

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    Thanks for the advice!
    Maybe it´s possible to make a prototype in Excel instead of Unity, so as to test systems in an abstract way and see how the numbers will behave?
     
  29. TonyLi

    TonyLi

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    Sure. You could even import those numbers from Excel into Unity later on. But would that really test the fun? Try to find the fastest way to test if your concept is fun to play (such as making a paper prototype).
     
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  30. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    what could be really interesting is following a cause and effect chain.

    Like you have cards to play a violent action or a non-violent action. Maybe the violent ones show a more immediate and seemingly beneficial effect, but causes things to get more complicated later.

    Obviously in a game about ghandi people are going to know that the non-violent actiosn would be the "correct" ones, but maybe you can find ways to make both routes seem viable, and only after a good amount of playing can people begin to deduce how the cause/effect chain plays out.

    anyway, just some ideas.
     
  31. angrypenguin

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    This is a lot of stuff. Start by picking one or two. If you're trying to tell a "story" then two really critical things are:
    1. Break that story down into its key parts, and write them. Experiment with different ways of splitting it up. You will need to iterate between this and your interaction loops a bunch, but an early step is getting them on paper so you can play with different ways of moving between them.

    2. Your scope here is huge in terms of design stuff you'll need to learn to make it happen. Telling one story in an interactive medium is pretty tricky, because you do not have full storytelling control. Telling two interleaved stories can be done with a little experience. Telling multiple while also teaching philosophy and societal lessons? Pick your battles!

    I think you're trying to have too much detail. Try to abstract similar types of real-world actions into one in-game action which can then have some stats attached to provide variation.

    Take the Firefly board game, for instance. They do a fantastic job of abstracting all sorts of stuff into a single deck of cards which is just "Make Mischief". You could be robbing a bank, racing your ship or hacking a computer, but they're all represented with the same type of card. What changes is the combination of different skill points required to succeed at each card: guns, piloting, hacking, etc.

    - - -

    What other turn-based or board games have you studied which tell stories? Have you analysed the different approaches they take to do it? Have you identified how these games work, and why, and what parts could be relevant to you?

    If you haven't, do it. Buy and play a couple of well known ones yourself, and watch a bunch of online videos of people playing a few more. There are people online who specifically do this with board games. And one of the neat things about board games is that the rules are 100% visible to all players. You can look at every part of those games, identify every rule and analyse why it is there and how it functions with the rest of the game.
     
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  32. DanielDemidov

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    Well, the best (easiest) way I see it is making a card game since cards can be abstract (easy to add new aspects), they can tell a story and are not the most difficult type of systems to implement. So they could be a core mechanic. But despite this sounding pretty easy, a whole lot of other questions arises each type I try to make a decision on the key game system....

    How I should deal with timing? Turn-based? Real-time?
    Which in-game variables do I need? I mean, should I try to limit their number just like in your example with one card for many actions, or here the situation is different?
    Since it's a game about country and politics, I have a map. But it's empty right now, I mean, no mechanics are attached to it and this has to be changed somehow...
    And the UI, and the code structure, and the win-lose conditions...

    And each time all these questions arise simultaneously, making me lose motivation as I've been trying to answer them correctly since 2015
    _______
    As for the games I consider telling a story in a good way, I can name Civilization, Stellaris, Pre-dynastic Egypt, maybe Rimworld (never played it though) and text-based games like Wanderlust: Travel Stories (but I heard that the first game shouldn't be content-driven)
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
  33. angrypenguin

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    Don't worry about answering them "correctly". My early designs were all crap, and that's ok. You need to make some junk before you get to the good stuff. :)

    Forget all this stuff. You can't plan it before you know roughly how the game will work. Start with paper prototypes.

    Separately, do you know how to program? If not, learning that is a whole thing of its own. In which case I suggest you focus on designing games and find someone else who can help out by coding them.
     
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  34. DanielDemidov

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    Thanks!
    Yeah, I know C#
     
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  35. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    everybody is just winging dude. you half form a vague idea and then you just wing it from there.

    have you made any games before? if not this is probably too complicated. maybe just start with solitaire, and add some custom indian independence themed card artwork. then as you work and play with that you mighth start imagining how things can work in your dream game.
     
  36. DanielDemidov

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    Thanks! Will try to implement this somehow, if I ever get to actually starting the development...
     
  37. angrypenguin

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    Here's an exercise: pick a board game and modify it's rules or content to address one of your design goals.
     
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  38. DanielDemidov

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    You mean, I can take any board game and try to add either historical elements or philosophy?
     
  39. angrypenguin

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    Sure, if they're your goals.

    But a subtle thing here: not "any board game". An important part of the exercise is picking an appropriate game as a starting point. Going back to earlier questions:
    You're not giving us much to go on, here. :)
     
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  40. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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  41. DanielDemidov

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    May I take not a board game, but a classical digital one? They are more compex, sure, but it may be possible to simplify the basic rules in a radical way
     
  42. DanielDemidov

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    Soooo, I tried to do this:
    but with a digital game. Thanks for the advice!

    I took Stellaris (space 4x). It has a concept of primitive civilizations that the player can influence through space stations:
    https://stellaris.paradoxwikis.com/Pre-FTL_species

    This gave me an idea that such a system can be used here. I tried to simplify it. So basically I will take the "Ages' mechanic, 'Observation Missions' and 'jobs' from there. These will be simplified and turned into 'Independence stages', 'Movement Projects' and population. The goal will be to get through all independence stages.

    Gonna see how fast the prototype can be created but, as far as I understand, it will require 5 steps.
    Will try to make something testable in about 20 days (including reserve ones, just in case), hope this will not be too tricky and the scope's not too huge.

    Thanks for all the advice!
    I think I may report on my progress here...
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
  43. DanielDemidov

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    Here we go. Added 2 out of 4 basic mechanics, game timing and some basic graphics:
     
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  44. DanielDemidov

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    So, current progress:
    -- Added a map
    -- Added independence states, national development points and dev. progress (when enough dev. points -> new stage. And the goal is to go through all stages towards independence)
    -- Added influence points (currency)
    -- Added basic actions code
    -- Added basic time code
    -- Added basic population code (these icons on the map, can support either UK or the player)
    -- Added actions UI
    -- Added independence states UI
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2021
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  45. DanielDemidov

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    So basically the player can choose between increasing development for influence or getting inluence without boosting development. And if influence is 0, the player loses
     
  46. StevenPicard

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    Not to start arguments with the other players? Lol. I've seen that happen too many times in Monopoly.