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A new Unity Pro or Paid forum needed?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by arkon, Feb 17, 2013.

?

Should I create a new VIP only Unity forum?

  1. Yes create it and I will definitely join

    35 vote(s)
    32.7%
  2. No don't do it, I would not join

    72 vote(s)
    67.3%
  1. antenna-tree

    antenna-tree

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    Sorry, not trying to insult anyone. I was just juxtaposing this forum with ZBrush's in where they have the full spectrum of users posting (noob to AAA) and trying to think about why that is.
     
  2. khanstruct

    khanstruct

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    lol, I know. I'd love to see some posts from the guys that made Battlestar Galactica Online, Mechwarrior Tactics (so I can yell at them), Wasteland 2, Endless Space, etc, etc.
     
  3. MarigoldFleur

    MarigoldFleur

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    Some of the crazy inefficiencies in BSG:O's netcode make me think they may need to post under a beginner's forum/tag if we ever get one.
     
  4. antenna-tree

    antenna-tree

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    I disagree, Top Row would simply mean exposure... which would actually mean something here if more people visited this forum that were in influential positions in the industry. It's a bit of a catch 22.
     
  5. arkon

    arkon

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    I know the vast majority of users here are free users so I am full expecting the poll do reflect that. BUT I need to know it won't be a place for me and 6 others.
     
  6. arkon

    arkon

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    Unity staff on here have already made it clear they are not going to do something to help. I perceived a real need for a minority or users that Unity chooses to ignore, the fact it's their paying customers they choose to ignore in order to please the non paying masses just rankles me more.

    So to answer your question, yes this forum should cater to that paying minority better and create a new section, but seeing as they are not going to do it, that only leave someone creating a whole new forum instead.

    *Edit..
    Part of the problem is it is not clear where you should ask questions to problems, There is this forum and Answers, yet I feel more likely to get a solution in this forum than in answers. As of now there are 1155 unanswered questions in the Answers section, Unity this is shameful on you. By leaving Answers un answered you drive us on to this forum to ask the same questions, increasing noise.
    in answers you should have a no question goes unanswered policy. Staffed by you and not wholly reliant on the good will of the community.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
  7. khanstruct

    khanstruct

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    They aren't ignoring anyone. They're just choosing to not isolate other users. There is plenty of support for everyone.

    Those Pro users are given a pile of great tools and assets for their money, then you call everyone else freeloaders? You may want to check that elitist view.
     
  8. superpig

    superpig

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    I think the key is simply what people have already been discussing: Make sure that they can get value out of the forum, either by structuring things in a way that helps them get advice from other similarly advanced people (incl. Unity engineers), or that helps them give advice to other similarly advanced people.

    Without that, you've got to ask yourself: why would someone bother coming to this forum, when they've got a game to be getting on with?

    I don't think the Top Row thing would drive engagement any more than the Showcase/WIP forums already do - people would come along to post screenshots when they're at release, but it won't cause them to stick around beyond that. Not to mention that more advanced devs are more commonly subject to NDAs that prevent them from showing off their work prior to release anyway.
     
  9. antenna-tree

    antenna-tree

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    Top Row on ZBC is full of post release stuff by individuals from whatever AAA game (Halo 4, Uncharted 3, etc). Anyway, the idea is to try and attract talented people to stick around and to raise the level of discourse here. I might be fooling myself, but I think it's possible to make this forum a place that is attractive to more advanced users which I think would be beneficial to everyone.
     
  10. khanstruct

    khanstruct

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    Unfortunately, I think a big thing keeping them away is the amateur, and often obnoxious users. And, not to support the elitists here, but that is the result of having a free version of the software.

    However, I don't think having a separate forum for Pro users would do anything to attract these higher level users. Just because you're sitting at the grown-up table, doesn't change the fact that you're in a house full of screaming kids.

    I like the idea of the top row, and I think its a step in the right direction, though I don't think its enough to bring the right kind of people in.
     
  11. TylerPerry

    TylerPerry

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    This is such a bad idea.
     
  12. Khyrid

    Khyrid

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    Unity should change its name to Disarray and then segregate all the users into isolated sub forums. This would reduce the noise. Let's stop all this working together and exchanging ideas crap, because novices are annoying. I never had to learn, I was born knowing how to code and make 3D art. Why should we elite have to tolerate anyone who's professionalism is beneath ours?

    Nobody who doesn't own pro would EVER under ANY circumstances share a similar problem or solution as a pro user. Free users don't even know what a variable is. They are inferior. You see, pro users, your problems are not your own, it's the free users. They are responsible for the state of affairs on this forum. It's us and them. The free users are the vermin of our otherwise great society. The time has come for the final solution.

    On a serious note, I did actually toy with the idea of having an elite collaboration forum for teams with professional looking projects. I came to belief that sectioning off the forums would only cripple the usefulness of them. You need to have a large and diverse population to interface with or else any restricted forum will stagnate.

    This vision of a professional streamlined forum where only serious developers post, fails because there are so many different skill levels. For pro users alone, you will have skill levels from the same as free users to industry pros. The very serious developers, the ones making games and selling them don't spend a lot of time on forums. Why would they want to help others? They have their own priorities and they are the ones who are least in need of help. When they encounter an issue it is rare and complex and they would likely contact unity directly. So who would be your population of dedicated members?
     
  13. n0mad

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    I'm not sure the comparison with ZBrush Central is a good thing. ZBC is all about eye candy. There's absolutely no need to dig deeper into what the eye sees, it simply works, or not.
    Here, we are on a game dev forum. There are graphical features from games, sure, but there is a far larger majority of coding stuff. Promoting coding quality is not like promoting eye candy, you have to read carefully the discussion, the details, before starting to see why it shines so bright.

    That's why I was suggesting different promoting methods.
    If you go full focus on Screenshots (or if you don't promote coding equally), this will turn these forums into even less interest from users to elevate their coding skills.
    (imho)
     
  14. khanstruct

    khanstruct

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    I would like the Khanstruct sub-forum. You guys can read it, but only I can post there.
     
  15. superpig

    superpig

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    Well, you could make a kind of gallery thing out of the Showcase section and pump the screenshots across the top of forum pages. It'd be pretty but I don't really see it driving engagement. At a guess, ZBrush's Top Row works because the advanced users are already engaged (and so provide content for it), not the other way around. (And n0mad raises a good point about the visual nature of ZBrush versus the wider design/coding/interactivity elements of Unity content).

    I don't think you're fooling yourself - it's certainly possible. I don't think that the path there is necessarily going to involve making only changes that are beneficial to everyone, though. Even if you're not persuaded that having a dedicated 'for beginners' forum is going to benefit the beginners as much as it'll benefit everyone else, it might be a step in the right direction if it brings more advanced users here at all. You can get them coming to the site first, and then look at ways to better integrate them later.
     
  16. antenna-tree

    antenna-tree

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    Who said a Unity Top Row would purely be about eye candy? We could feature anything that is cool... whatever... Playmaker is cool, Top Row... some clever networking API, Top Row... awesome shader solution for forcefields on mobile that was arrived at 3 pages deep, Top Row... click on the link to read the thread and find out more about it.

    And it could be per section (where it made sense). Most of it would probably be games and Asset Store stuff, but it could be more open than that.
     
  17. n0mad

    n0mad

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    I see, same layer as the Asset Store I guess ? Sounds good.
     
  18. keithsoulasa

    keithsoulasa

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    THIS

    Many common issues ( like Unity not building/signing correctly with a certain Android SDK JRE) affect all of us . No one forces anyone to participate . I actually like the openness of the Unity forums , which is very clear on whats allowed and whats not( unlike Stack overflow which just bans people without warning) .


    If it's a real issue , and money is on the line then you have the OPTION of paying for premium support .
    And what makes you pros are lining up to help other pros( with extremely complex problems ) , but only in a special forum .

    In fact a simple question like 'How do I make an array public ' is going to get far more answers then ' My MMO is running out of memory after 30 minutes of gameplay, how can I override the default memory collection . '
     
  19. CharlieSamways

    CharlieSamways

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    This, There is a HUGE gap between the quality 'appearance' of the Unity folk in comparison to that of Polycount or ZBC. I think putting eye-candy on the top row is smart, If people moan, its just because they aren't good enough to get their work featured. It should give people some initiative to stop dicking around.
     
  20. khanstruct

    khanstruct

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    I think that's one of the biggest issues here. We coddle people who, quite frankly, just suck at what they do. I'm not saying we have to outright say that to them, but why not show off and showcase some of the top-quality products? Who gives a damn if people whine because they weren't chosen?

    Put the top quality work, front and center. Let the lesser developers filter to the bottom on their own.
     
  21. CharlieSamways

    CharlieSamways

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    Mhm, I don't like to think of Unity as a commy nation. But sometimes.... :L
     
  22. SevenBits

    SevenBits

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    The system khanstruct is proposing isn't commy. It would enhance forum quality, something that treating every member as equal doesn't always do.
     
  23. SevenBits

    SevenBits

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    Which is what I was proposing, although in a less overt way.
     
  24. CharlieSamways

    CharlieSamways

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    I agree with Khanstructs views.
     
  25. khanstruct

    khanstruct

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  26. Khyrid

    Khyrid

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    They're in order of facial hair. Is that a commy thing?
     
  27. TylerPerry

    TylerPerry

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    I don't want to have something like Playmaker shoved in my face, It is a good tool, but it is easy enough to search and fine. Everyone knows that it exists if they want it search.

    Only something that doesn't have the coverage it deserves should be helped... IE Undead Pixel(Jks :p)
     
  28. khanstruct

    khanstruct

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    New people are signing up for Unity all the time. Not everyone knows about these tools. Besides, its not being shoved in anyone's face, its just a collage of cool assets and games that have been created with Unity. Click it or don't.
     
  29. Myhijim

    Myhijim

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    Why not a Asset subform!

    Am I too late :p
     
  30. arkon

    arkon

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    Well seems like 30% of people are in favour of an alternate forum! Having it's own asset exchange might be a good idea too. just need a name for the domain now.
     
  31. ronan-thibaudau

    ronan-thibaudau

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    As a pro (and very very heavy spender on asset store) user i'm very much against this idea.
    If it was a unity forum, handles by unity, i'd be all for it (a dedicated forum a la MSDN where you're guaranteed to get a STAFF answer if you're posting past a certain delay). However if this is going to be a community thing and you want to keep the signal to noise ratio down, filter, but don't do it based on pro licence.
    1) It's hard to prove (and i aint sending some stranger my company's invoices for proof)
    2) It doesn't mean that much really, you're tossing out some really nice free indies and getting in some noisy pro

    If you want to do this then do it right, make registration mandatory to post but not to read (no use witholding information, if you have a good information ratio, may as well make it public). And make each member go through an approval testing that he is a professional (as in, of professional level) in at least one of the fields unity requires (programming in either C# / unityscript or boo OR some form of art + knowledge of how to include it in unity OR overall jack of all trade in unity , but at least one of those at a level sufficient to push in a game)

    I'd also say making the forum paid (even a minimal fee) would remove most of the noise (spam, silly arguments etc) however i wouldn't pay to a stranger for this kind of service (let's be honest, hosting a forum is basically free, even more so if you already have an infrastructure).

    So overall i'd really rather see unity step in, add a PRO subforum that is limited to pro user accounts, and actually have staff answering them (not on random posts once in a while, but on EACH and EVERY single post untill it's solved, treating threads as support tickets unless they get community-solved within 24 hours).
     
  32. Metron

    Metron

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    I second this... It's up to Unity to provide a better support and higher visibility of threads created by Unity pro licensees. Unity employees will less likely register and reply on an external site.
     
  33. ronan-thibaudau

    ronan-thibaudau

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    That + here it's pretty easy for them to code up a trigger in a subforum to auto register a mod to receive email updates, a single person dedicated to this could dispatch the info to the correct teams and it would avoid situations like "it's the first time we hear about this issue" when they get contacted about something that's been discussed for months on these forums.

    I think unity is now large enough to justify 1 full time person (not like an asset store person like caitlyn, but one "just forum, no other responsibility than browsing all day" person) that would do just that, browse forums, tracks threads, see how they go, and at least in a pro forum provide pro support by making sure no issue goes unresolved.

    I would actually pay EXTRA for access to this subforum, on top of my pro subscribtion (but i'm not sure many would). I've already had questions which are probably of little interest to most as they're specific, only unity staff likely can answer those, so they get banished to the 7th floor of forgetfullness in the scripting forum. I'd be happy to pay 500$/year for access to a subforum with a guaranteed staff answer in say, 72Hours. I'm not asking for a super emergency direct phone hotline to the devs with 5minuts answer here, just a "if the community can't solve this, we guarantee a unity staff will get in this thread untill it's solved after a few days". This is a very good middle ground between expensive dedicated support and community support, it's community best effort + unity reasonable effort only when needed!
     
  34. nullstar

    nullstar

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    I dont understand you lot. You admit that you want proffesional and talented developers to be more involved in Unity and the forums, but then in the same breath disregard the concerns brought up by those developers which is stopping them from becoming more invested.
     
  35. MarigoldFleur

    MarigoldFleur

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    No, he said "more advanced users." Nothing about that requires Unity Pro.
     
  36. nullstar

    nullstar

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    I didn't mention Unity pro once. I said proffesional and talented developers
     
  37. khanstruct

    khanstruct

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    He is not referring to anyone posting in this thread (or any other thread for that matter). He's referring more to the high profile game developers out there, using Unity. For instance, the guys on Wasteland 2, Bad Piggies, etc. You may be great at what you do, but (to my knowledge) no one outside these forums has any idea who you are, nor have they heard of any of your games (assuming you've made any).

    Please don't be offended by that; no one has heard of me either.
     
  38. n0mad

    n0mad

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    Let's rename Unity Pro to Unity Extended so we don't have those elitist callings anymore :p
     
  39. nullstar

    nullstar

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    No offense taken, I dont particularly advertise what I do proffesionaly, but I probably am the type of person that Unity is trying to attract. Click on my sig and read the 'about me' section if you wish to learn more.
     
  40. arkon

    arkon

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    I too would prefer it done by Unity, but they are not going to do anything, so I am seeking an alternative solution. I may be a stranger to you but am I any more of a stranger than Unity themselves? I am a CEO of a successful gaming business with a couple of successful unity games on IOS, I wouldn't be asking for company accounts, just some form of proof that you are either Unity Pro, OR one of the other platform licences, It could even be like the masons and done by recommendation where anyone recommended is given probationary posting status and once they have proved themselves not to be a nuisance then given full access.

    This thread and the other one clearly shows Unity support to be lacking on the social forum and Answers and an alternative is clearly needed. I am open to any and all suggestions for what the rules of a new forum should be, who can join with what status, what proof would be needed, what to call it, volunteers for mods etc. Please PM me if you want to help or contribute. I'm still not certain I will do it as I am a busy individual and although there seems to be a 30% in favour its not a definite yes.
     
  41. CharlieSamways

    CharlieSamways

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    Lol, the fact you've made British Bulldogs just makes me happy. *wipes a tear* School days.. Brilliant stuff ^_^
     
  42. Toasttify

    Toasttify

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    Imagine when you started, imagine that all the experienced users and owners of pro where posting on a separate forum, one you could not access. No good could come of this, this defies even the name of the product, unity means one group of people together, from beginners to advanced, and it should stay that way.
     
  43. nullstar

    nullstar

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    Hehe thanks, I was really buzzed about making that. I wanted to give each of the kids different personalities so they would interact with each other by shouting school playground style insults at each other using little speech bubbles above their heads, give it a real Grange Hill vibe. At the beginning I was even experimenting with training neural nets to try and make interesting behaviours and tactics for each child. Then I booked a last minute holiday to Egypt which meant I only had a couple more days to work on it before the compo deadline so just threw in some rough hand-coded AI so it was at least playable and called it a day. Maybe at some point I'll go back to it but there's too many new ideas to explore ;).
     
  44. spinaljack

    spinaljack

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    I used to work in elevator studios too before I left. Might have been in the lift together at some point lol.
    Glad there are lots of developers here in Liverpool.
     
  45. nullstar

    nullstar

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    Oh sweet, you were one of the Milky Tea people. Yeh no doubt we bumped into each other at some point. There's quite a big indie developer scene in Liverpool these days, good stuff :)
     
  46. Swearsoft

    Swearsoft

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    How about a difficulty rating for threads and a link next to New Posts. This would be voted on by forum members, so tough stuff would get votes, even if they don't get answers, then it would be easy to sort through them.
     
  47. Khyrid

    Khyrid

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    Wouldn't it be very simple to just have a section between the stickies and standard post where people who have pro have their threads stay on top? HAHA, that would make many free users angry. I'm a free user and i wouldn't mind unless it buried all free user's threads.
     
  48. n0mad

    n0mad

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    The base idea is good, but practically it means some beginners could upvote the difficulty rating so their questions are attracting advanced coders (and answered faster).
     
  49. nullstar

    nullstar

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    The idea could be adapted to fit in nicely with Unity Answers and the Karma system they have there. For example, if you read a question but cant answer it, you get the opportunity to click the "couldn't answer" button. Perhaps this would award a minimal amount of Karma to encourage people to use it. Each time the button is clicked the difficulty rating of the question is raised one. Then have it so that questions can be searched in decreasing order of difficulty and apply bonus Karma to people who's answers are chosen as the correct answer based upon the accumulated difficulty of the question.
     
  50. n0mad

    n0mad

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    Pretty nice mechanic.
    Although I'm not sure enough people would bother clicking the couldn't answer, if one question is not answered it's often because either readers didn't read it till the end, either they left without posting because they didn't understand the problem. Both ways this means they won't bother to take the time to click on "couldn't answer" (and also because in general people don't like to admit they were clueless).

    The "Like" system I suggested earlier would work in such scenario :
    if any post can be "liked", so can be Original Posts. Then, we could imagine a simple icon in front of every topic in the forum lists that would represent how many likes the OP got. That is : a "hot" meter.

    This way, Questions that are really interesting (therefore which would receive a lot of likes) would be more visible from their icon (or color ?).

    Such a Like system, applied to other posts than OP in the thread, would also solve the problem of the best answer (à la Unity Answers) .