Search Unity

A New Era for .NET: .NET Core 5 Open Source

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by movra, Nov 12, 2014.

  1. movra

    movra

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Posts:
    571
  2. KelsoMRK

    KelsoMRK

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Posts:
    5,468
    I just read about it here: http://www.wired.com/2014/11/microsoft-open-sources-net-says-will-run-linux-mac/ and ran back over to the forum :)

    I'm curious to see how long it takes and the quality of the product that comes out on the other side - ie how well does stuff work on Linux and MacOS. Especially when it comes to things like Forms that have close ties to Windows.

    Personally, I think it'd be great to use Unity backed by a truly cross-platform (and current!) .NET runtime.
     
  3. Limyc

    Limyc

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Posts:
    28
    And there goes 90% percent of the arguments againt C#. Soon-to-be truely cross-platorm as well as fully open source. This is so awesome! I really hope to see some performance improvements on the Mac and Linux side in the somewhat near future now that this is a thing.
     
    Cogent, drawcode and shkar-noori like this.
  4. alt.tszyu

    alt.tszyu

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Posts:
    110
    Just read about this on winsupersite.com. Maybe I missed it, but do they mention the license?

    Yeah. What does it mean for Unity 7. :p
     
  5. movra

    movra

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Posts:
    571
    Cogent, randomperson42, im and 2 others like this.
  6. movra

    movra

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Posts:
    571
    What open source license is Microsoft using for .NET Core?

    MIT.

    What can you do with the software? Are there restrictions?


    The MIT license plainly states that licensed software can be used “without restriction”.
     
  7. Mr.T

    Mr.T

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Posts:
    546
    So, at least now all the special loathing that Microsoft always seemed to get dissipates a little.

    All monopolies are the same. From Microsoft to Google(AdSense) to PayPal. Once they see no meaningful competition they begin to treat their consumers like trash. I always thought some of this hatred directed at MS was irrational
     
    alt.tszyu likes this.
  8. tiggus

    tiggus

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Posts:
    1,235
    I'm wondering more what it means for Mono? Who is going to pay for Mono license once .NET is built/ported by the community for linux/mac/mobile etc.?
     
  9. alt.tszyu

    alt.tszyu

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2013
    Posts:
    110
    Microsoft will always get hate, because its cool to hate Microsoft.
    Google's motto is "Don't be evil."
    How is that even possible for a corporation?

    But back on topic.This is interesting, but unfortunately, we as the end users probably won't see any benefits from this in the near future. Unless UT have been working behind the scenes with Microsoft.
     
  10. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2014
    Posts:
    2,234
    GG Microsoft. GG

    Sadly it will still probably be years before Unity can get to that point, since it's still won't be as cross compatible as they will like/need.
    You still need/want an IDE and debugger, so there should still be some room in that market.
     
  11. movra

    movra

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Posts:
    571
    Miguel de Icaza (Xamarin) was just on stage telling something about Mono and cross-platform developing with http://www.omnisharp.net/. Intellisense in Sublime on a Mac.


    Rewind to somewhere around 3:32:00 in this livestream http://channel9.msdn.com/
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2014
    drawcode likes this.
  12. Arowx

    Arowx

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Posts:
    7,245
  13. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Posts:
    4,562
  14. inafield

    inafield

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2013
    Posts:
    281
    This news combined with IL2CPP tech could make some things very interesting.

    I had someone ask me to answer a question on Quora, "What new improvements are in Unity 8"... was rather surprised, and then realized it was in reference to Ubuntu. :p
     
    Cogent and shkar-noori like this.
  15. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Posts:
    4,562
    inafield, Cogent, drawcode and 2 others like this.
  16. ZJP

    ZJP

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Posts:
    2,646
    so, what does this mean for Unity?
     
  17. yaapelsinko

    yaapelsinko

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2013
    Posts:
    102
    Maybe sometime it will stop to be a pile of junk.

    As far as I understand, now they can throw Mono completely and migrate to original .NET.
    And use VS as the main IDE.
    But that must be a long way.
     
    inafield likes this.
  18. ZJP

    ZJP

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Posts:
    2,646
    Thanks.
     
  19. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Posts:
    4,562
    Well in the short term it would mean better Mac and Linux support as everything could run on the .NET 5 core. However there is a caveat... the problem with Xamarin isn't the framework... it's the runtime. Xamarin is what enables .NET to run on iOS, Android, etc. So, either Android and iOS will have to decide to support .NET 5.0 Core as a development platform, or you'll still need something like Xamarin to AOT it and enable it to run.

    The good news is that the culmination of the open technologies (.NET Core, Compiler, Roslyn API, etc) will make it far easier for people to create products to compete with Xamarin, and possibly even allow Unity to develop their own... although IL2CPP seems like it might be a better path for those platforms and may even be the way forward for Unity on other platforms.

    To me, what is crucial is that Unity get their framework version updated... support better garbage collection... support new language features like await and async and some of the new concurrent collection goodness. This becomes much more feasible now. The opening of .NET Core and Microsoft supporting it to run on Mac and Linux means that Unity will be able to base the editor off of .NET rather than Mono still have it run on Mac and Linux and could lead to better support of a Linux editor even though that encapsulates a very tiny user base.
     
  20. tatoforever

    tatoforever

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Posts:
    3,967
    I'm pretty sure it'll be better than Mono.
     
  21. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    15,154
    I'd have been happy with just Visual Studio Express supporting UnityVS in some manner, but this is so much better.
     
    Cogent and Devil_Inside like this.
  22. braaad

    braaad

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2012
    Posts:
    102
    I quickly looked, but couldn't find an answer regarding plugins but it might be worth downloading http://www.visualstudio.com/news/vs2013-community-vs (new free VS2013 community edition) and see if it works with UnityVS.
     
  23. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    15,154
    Started running the web installer when I saw the news. :D
     
  24. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Posts:
    4,562
    It will work with UnityVS just fine. It's just a renamed version of visual studio professional. ;)

    I'm actually going to install and fire up Visual Studio 2015 Preview tonight and Visual Studio Tools for Unity 2.0
     
    Cogent likes this.
  25. braaad

    braaad

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2012
    Posts:
    102
    I was holding off, but once I found out resharper already had support for it in version 9 I started the download.
     
  26. high-octane

    high-octane

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Posts:
    84
    If the .NET Native compiler also goes open source and cross platform, it's essentially game-over for IL2CPP.
     
  27. im

    im

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2013
    Posts:
    1,393
    more than past time to dump mono...

    also thanks for the links to free vs and link to vs for unity

    im going to try it and hopefully im done with mono editor!

    lets hope unity moves to be done with mono runtime as well!

    :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2014
  28. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Posts:
    4,562
    Good to know! I'm still on Resharper 8. Haven't had a need to purchase an upgrade license yet but I will once VS 2015 is released. Since I won't be using 2015 for production I won't need to worry about it.
     
  29. techmage

    techmage

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2009
    Posts:
    2,090
    Microsoft has always treated developers extremely well and had extremely good developer products.

    It's all ballmer's genetics in their to believe that wrangling of developers is the most important thing ever. DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS

    And rally it was, Windows sucked, people only used it because the windows only apps it had. MS Is trying to save some face here I think. But it's super smart. I think it will work. I hope it will. C# is a really good language.
     
  30. high-octane

    high-octane

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Posts:
    84
    Which is part of why I never understood the almost irrational aversion to Microsoft technology, especially in the Silicon Valley hive mind.
     
    Dustin-Horne likes this.
  31. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Posts:
    4,562
    I'm in Omaha, NE which is in the heart of the silicon prairie. Lots of development on the Microsoft stack around here and far less of that west coast aversion. Actually, most of the devs around here consider themselves to be pretty technosexual. They may specialize, but aren't opposed to particular technologies (in general... there are still plenty of exceptions).
     
    high-octane likes this.
  32. movra

    movra

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Posts:
    571
    Eventually, but not just yet.

    Until the open sourced .NET becomes available everywhere where Mono matters or where some specifics of Mono are used, Mono will continue to be used.
    - http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2014/Nov-12.html

    First, convergence.

    Mono is an important part of the .NET ecosystem, particularly for client scenarios (ex: Xamarin). We will look for ways to collaborate with Mono developers and encourage them to take our code to improve Mono. We will also look for opportunities to improve .NET Core with MIT-licensed Mono code.
    - https://github.com/Microsoft/dotnet

    16:00 http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Visual-Studio/Connect-event-2014/017
     
  33. im

    im

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2013
    Posts:
    1,393
    all this just drives another nail in the mono coffin...

    wow the free VS2013 community edition
    http://www.visualstudio.com/news/vs2013-community-vs

    is amazing, about to try it with vs for unity (keep fingers crossed)
    http://unityvs.com

    update 1...

    its installing (aye, my mono develop nightmare is almost over)

    update 2...

    it installed! starting unity to see if i can edit and debug!

    update 3...

    ok it worked great! i can now use it fully, including debugging, instead of mono develop!
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2014
    Joviex and Robota like this.
  34. schmosef

    schmosef

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Posts:
    817
    I think @movra has it right. This really could be the start of a new era.

    I have a client project that's currently an ASP.Net web app that my client wants made into native apps for iOS and Android.

    I love the idea of using Visual Studio to build those apps.

    As far as Unity is concerned, the potential to replace mono for various platforms is just amazing.
     
  35. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    15,154
    Microsoft could have had a monopoly on developer tools if they had been more platform agnostic from the beginning, but they were too stubborn and refused to accept that other platforms had potential. I love that they're doing this though it feels a little too late for them to really change things up. We'll see though.

    Using Visual Studio with Unity properly without spending $500 is one of my favorite reasons for this, but the other reason is amusing in its own right. It allows me to finally use custom theme extensions so Visual Studio is not so hideous.

    Visual Studio 2013 Color Theme Editor
     
    Cogent, R-Lindsay and Meltdown like this.
  36. im

    im

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2013
    Posts:
    1,393
    they should port .net / visual studio to like every major platform that would support it. apple/linux could use stuff like this. eclipsed would be eclipsed by it ;)
     
  37. thxfoo

    thxfoo

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2014
    Posts:
    515
    I think most developers on that platforms would not switch, so it would be a waste of money for MS.
    The VS debugger is not bad, but for most of the rest there are better alternatives available.
    Each time I have to go back to VS for some Windows only code bases it drives me crazy, so many things are so 10 years ago...
    For some issues there are plugins, but I don't want to buy plugin, VS should do all the basics (like Unity should).

    [some issues: search field over all settings missing, recompiles all C++ sources on linker settings change, cannot handle projects on network mapped drives reasonably, Intellisense does not work for any a little more complex C++ code base, the C++ compiler is so much behind Clang (only a complete rewrite could fix that), and it is so slow]
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2014
  38. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    12,364
    Give me a solid C# alternative for OS X and I'll switch in a heartbeat.
     
    Ryiah and Dustin-Horne like this.
  39. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    12,364
    So where can we find the license for the VS2013 Community Edition? I'm downloading the 6.9gb ISO, but if it's restricted for non-commercial use or something I may as well save the bandwidth...
     
  40. thxfoo

    thxfoo

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2014
    Posts:
    515
    Java. Much more widely available, much larger ecosystem, deployed where it matters,...

    Just some numbers from a Dell R720xd dual-Xeon E5 v2 + 10 GbE:

    http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r9

    Throughput:
    Java: 831,515 responses per second vs .NET: 108,543 (and that is with a pure .NET http listener, you don't even want to know the numbers using normal .NET mechanisms)

    Or Latency:
    Java 0.4ms vs .NET http listener: 10.1ms


    See, these are worlds apart.
    [Edit: I was very fair to .NET, I took the fastest .NET variant but the standard Java ones. There are better Java ones. And I took the Json benchmark. E.g. in Cleartext benchmark it would be Java undertow 4.16M resp/sec vs .NET 110k resp/sec, that is 40 times less for .NET.
    Of course the winner of the benchmarks is C++ (e.g. 6.7M resp/sec for Cleartext benchmark).]
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2014
    tatoforever likes this.
  41. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    12,364
    Yes, they are "words apart", because for what I'm talking about Java doesn't get the job done. At all.


    We were talking about the IDE, not the language. Telling me to switch to Java doesn't help me write software with Unity, and it doesn't help any of the many, many other developers who don't get to pick their language for any of a huge variety of reasons. It's not an alternative to Visual Studio for C#.
     
  42. thxfoo

    thxfoo

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2014
    Posts:
    515
    Sorry.

    >> "Give me a solid C# alternative for OS X and I'll switch in a heartbeat."
    I read "solid C# alternative" as alternative to C#.
     
  43. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    12,364
    Fair enough. My response there may have been a little heavier than it needed to be... :oops:
     
    Cogent likes this.
  44. thxfoo

    thxfoo

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2014
    Posts:
    515
    No problem.
    You are right, IDEs for C# are rare. You have MS and Mono, nobody else seems to want to build one.

    When I talked about devs on other platforms probably not wanting to switch to VS, I talked about VS for C++, because C# code is developed almost exclusively on Windows, besides a few strange exceptions like Unity gamplay code. And I don't think availability of VS for Linux/OSX would mean Linux/OSX devs would start using C#.
     
    Cogent and angrypenguin like this.
  45. Dustin-Horne

    Dustin-Horne

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Posts:
    4,562
    As long as you're not enterprise you're unrestricted. The licensing is on this page:
    http://www.visualstudio.com/products/visual-studio-community-vs

    Specifically:
    Q: Who can use Visual Studio Community?
    A: Here’s how individual developers can use Visual Studio Community:
    • Any individual developer can use Visual Studio Community to create their own free or paid apps.
    Here’s how Visual Studio Community can be used in organizations:
    • An unlimited number of users within an organization can use Visual Studio Community for the following scenarios: in a classroom learning environment, for academic research, or for contributing to open source projects.
    • For all other usage scenarios: In non-enterprise organizations, up to 5 users can use Visual Studio Community. In enterprise organizations (meaning those with >250 PCs or > $1MM in annual revenue), no use is permitted beyond the open source, academic research, and classroom learning environment scenarios described above.
     
    Cogent, Ryiah and angrypenguin like this.
  46. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    12,364
    Cool. I'd seen reference to "non-enterprise" but looking around I was having trouble finding out what that meant. Those figures seem good to me.

    To be fair, the up to date one for Mono might be great. It's just the wierd one that comes bundled with Unity that's... less than ideal. I used to defend it and happily work with it, but since they started bundling 4+ some installs are virtually unusable, and it takes a lot for me to say that.

    Many of my recent installs of MonoDevelop from Unity are so bad that it's actually more productive to use a normal text editor. It'll do things like mess up my formatting (rather than assisting with it) and changing identifiers that were correct to incorrect ones (ie: breaking my code and significantly slowing down its development).

    Of 6 or so installs at least 3 exhibit such behaviour.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2014
    Cogent likes this.
  47. makeshiftwings

    makeshiftwings

    Joined:
    May 28, 2011
    Posts:
    3,311
    This is exciting. And yes, as everyone else has said, I wonder what it means for Unity. I'm thinking that this might mean that IL2CPP will soon be pointless, which might have all the devs who have spent months of their lives on it now banging their heads on the wall. Though I have to add a twinge of annoyance that MS is now up to .NET 5 and Unity is still stuck somewhere between .NET 2 and 3.5.
     
  48. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Posts:
    12,364
    Where do people get the impression that IL2CPP may become pointless? From what I've read about this so far, it's just for the desktop platforms. Unity have used Mono or rolled their own Mono support for the other platforms. While IL2CPP does other cool stuff, the gap that it's primarily filling is getting Mono/.NET code running on platforms where support is otherwise more expensive to come by, which is still a problem that has to be solved.
     
    Dustin-Horne likes this.
  49. makeshiftwings

    makeshiftwings

    Joined:
    May 28, 2011
    Posts:
    3,311
    Well, the .NET core and the new .NET native compiler, which does a similar thing to IL2CPP, are both going to be open source. So while there might not be iOS and Android support immediately, I think it's only a matter of time before the open source community gets it up and running. And, no offense to Unity, but I would much rather have the core and compiler written by MS with oversight from a large open source foundation than a closed source one by Unity.
     
    tatoforever likes this.
  50. makeshiftwings

    makeshiftwings

    Joined:
    May 28, 2011
    Posts:
    3,311
    Also, I remember a while ago when I said there was no way MS would buy out Mono because they were basically backing them to do open source .NET and other platform support for them. Well, now I am ready to eat my words, because with this series of announcements, it sounds like MS might indeed decide to absorb Mono.
     
unityunity