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72 KB Core Runtime

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ferazel, Mar 20, 2018.

  1. Ferazel

    Ferazel

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    I need to say the biggest surprise that happened in the GDC presentation was the nested prefab announcement... ok not really they’ve been teasing that for years. To me the lightweight 72KB runtime announcement stole the spotlight for me.

    Is there anything more Unity people can share about this upcoming feature? Like what are the limitations of the runtime, and what other image/asset compression was used?

    While this will be amazing for webgl content (which I’m sure is the primary market) it could also be incredibly useful for lightweight mobile/embedded products. Where start-up and asset sizes can be a big problem for some lighter use cases of Unity.
     
    Mauri and theANMATOR2b like this.
  2. HeadClot88

    HeadClot88

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    I am curious as well :)
     
  3. Tiny-Tree

    Tiny-Tree

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    google also presented this service today which could be one of their use:
     
    RavenOfCode, Twist01 and HeadClot88 like this.
  4. N1warhead

    N1warhead

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    What I'm curious about is run time battery consumption, that would be the only thing left on getting full fledged phone apps from being made.
     
  5. Psionic-Games

    Psionic-Games

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    This could be amazing for webGL games and for demoing of your mobile games, very exciting times ahead!!

    Can't wait to find out more info on this...
     
  6. orb

    orb

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    The blog says 73 Kelvinbytes, so it's not THAT cold.
     
    angrypenguin, hippocoder, Ony and 3 others like this.
  7. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    For me, this was the biggest surprise ! Small runtimes / builds !

    In the Keynote it was mentioned that this is aimed for Ads & Messanger-Apps (interesting, no idea what exactly is meaned). But i really want to know, and if so it would be unbelieveable, if these "small runtimes" method aplies also to WebGL (3D) & native mobile Apps (iOS / Android) ??? Does anybody knows....has more infos about it ?
     
  8. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    His examples were all based on web technology.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  9. passerbycmc

    passerbycmc

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    this looks really nice, especially for some web platforms where you need to support desktop and mobile browsers, which the current webGL target is not up for atm.
     
  10. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    Hm, its hard to believe that it has something to do with the webGL 3D. I think, i can remeber he said something about html5 and canvas. And i didn´t see anything with a 3D content. Sadly WebGL is too slow on mobiles and too "fat" for internet streaming. But if this 72kb runtime has something to do with the regular Unity-webGL export we know, than its hot.
     
  11. Ferazel

    Ferazel

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    I am sure that the idea is to be a better platform for platforms like Facebook instant games, and that new google instant play platform. Lightweight games that don’t require a big download. However, embedding a simple webgl deployment is also really appealing for dynamic web content.
     
    r0undh0u53 and passerbycmc like this.
  12. Tiny-Tree

    Tiny-Tree

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    i think the starting point was playable ads on mobile.
     
  13. passerbycmc

    passerbycmc

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    Yeah think so, right now unity is not viable for fbInstsnt or similar platforms so as a result poeple need to roll there own or use things like phaser. Stuff like phaser work just fine, but the tooling sucks so content takes a lot longer to create then in unity.
     
  14. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    I hope its not only for "playable ads" :confused:

    Unity mobile export is: OK (filesize, performance) ... could be better ! But its ok.
    Unity webGL export is: very BAD (filesize, performance) !!!

    Even with WebAssembly support, etc. I can´t reach everybody on Desktop with a 32bit Browser. Performance sucks (especially fullscreen). Mobile even more worse. Currently the only way for us all is "ThreeJS" or similar. I am surprised of the capabilities of ThreeJS. It has great shaders and other nice things. The only downside here: its not that comfortable, fast developing, as in Unity

    Too less info here! I wish Unity should roll out more specs about this new feature. For some of us, its important to know more, because of decisions and planing upcoming projects !
     
  15. r0undh0u53

    r0undh0u53

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    Having FB Instant and PWA (Progressive Web Apps) as targets would be great! Seeing that Apple is now taking PWAs seriously and Android having full support of PWAs means that we don't have to generate native binaries just to target mobile devices.
     
  16. Arowx

    Arowx

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    I was really excited about this but...

    In the keynote and blog page it sounds like it's a separate architecture branch, aimed at HTML/canvas and the demos were 2D only.

    It sounds like a separate 'Unity 2D HTML micro-game engine' not a super small build of Unity WebGL. (UT confirmation please?)

    Mind you if you could have an interactive 2D micro game or intro as a precursor or loading screen/setup screen for a real WebGL game that would be amazing!

    Hopefully they will still work on reduced build/load/streaming sizes for Unity WebGL games.
     
    theANMATOR2b likes this.
  17. elbows

    elbows

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    I certainly got the impression from the keynote that the unity editor is the main thing this system has in common with unity as we know it, and that this project is quite a different beast than their usual efforts to extend normal unity to new platforms.
     
  18. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    So they announced it at this years GDC? Only 5 years to wait for it to come out then. :/
     
    theANMATOR2b likes this.
  19. moonjump

    moonjump

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    I really hope this also works for mobile. But if not, hopefully the technology developed for this will be used to improve mobile build sizes.

    It does seem odd having a core of 72KB for one export, and minimum build sizes in 10s of MB for others. Hopefully options and the consequences will be fully explained soon.
     
    theANMATOR2b likes this.
  20. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    Not really that odd. After all the browser itself is in effect a stand-alone player which you don't have to bundle in. Whereas for a standalone PC build you have to bundle in the player with the app. To draw a sphere on the screen in HTML5 is only a few lines of javascript code. Hardly any bytes at all. It's really only the physics engine which will take up the room. Box2D is not very big if you're just doing a 2D game. 3D is another matter because you've got to convert the PhysX library to javascript. The surprising thing is that the build was so big to begin with. (Well not so surprising as Unity has not been known for its efficiency).
     
  21. elbows

    elbows

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    Because the Core Runtime probably has hardly anything that we traditionally associate with Unity in it.
     
  22. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
    Peter77 likes this.
  23. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    Where's the nested prefab section of the video? It would be good if YouTube had a search function.
     
  24. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    This is what i mean ! All others (playcanvas, threeJS) have such small sizes for years ago. Unity´s webGL is to big-sized (sure you can split it with assetBundles, but loading time will be added, it doesn´t dissapear). Also with optimized shaders unitys WebGL doesn´t have a good performance.

    This is why we all want small filesizes and a similar 3D performance export like in playCanvas.
     
  25. passerbycmc

    passerbycmc

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    yeah even if it means not support all features that would be great. Since three.js is pretty capable and you can get decent stuff done in the 2d real with phaser. Problem is the tooling sucks. While the tooling around Unity and C# is amazing.
     
  26. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    Exactly. The other tools are great in performance & filesize way !!! But on the other hand, they are far more difficult to use !!! Really, it takes much longer to publish your desired goal ! (have only threeJS expirience)

    Unity on the other hand, is superb in usability and its super easy to get your desired goals. For me, only the Web-Export
    webGL (3D) sucks the most ! Therefore: to the Unity-Team, please make such small filesizes possible within great performance on Browsers and mobile Browsers, not just 2D, do it 3D.
     
    theANMATOR2b likes this.
  27. passerbycmc

    passerbycmc

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    also nice thing about unity is S*** just works out of the box. Today i spent 4 whole hours, just messing about trying to build a proper tool chain for THREE.js, messing about with typescript compilers, webpack and npm, to get a good content pipeline made when that is just a solved problem in unity.
     
    theANMATOR2b likes this.
  28. yoonitee

    yoonitee

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    Also, I hope the actual compile time to WebGL is quicker now. Last time I tried it it took about 10 minutes to compile an scene with a single sphere to WebGL! I just gave up and never used it again.
     
    Martin_H likes this.
  29. theANMATOR2b

    theANMATOR2b

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    That seems - wow :eek: - I've had pretty decent luck with compile times for WebGL. My desktop is about 3 years old now - not a beast by any means - but looking at my notes Fttt compiled in about 2 minutes. Maybe Unity was hanging on something - maybe some super shader or large texture size?

    I'm also crossing my fingers for runtime speeds of WebGL loading to be faster/smaller.
     
    Ippokratis likes this.
  30. elbows

    elbows

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    Clues:

    Democratizing Data-Oriented Design: ECS for Small Things

    https://unitydesigndayfinalsession.splashthat.com/

     
  31. Ippokratis

    Ippokratis

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    @yoonitee WebGL build time suck badly but
    - they improve when you build again ( successive builds take less time)
    - you can develop the game for desktop (fast builds for prototyping-tweaking) and switch the build target to webgl when you have a release candidate ( e.g. end of the week).
    -try the cloud build

    When WebGL first came out it was practically unusable due to export size - build times, I use it for the past month for a project and I find it quite improved - 3 mins build time on a 3770k, 9Mb downloadable size.
     
    WillNode and theANMATOR2b like this.
  32. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    Who is the inventor of threeJS ? :)

    Interesting. Thx for thisn info. The speech starts tomorrow. Lets see what he will talk about. Its hard to believe that webGL can handle all these. We will see.
     
  33. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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  34. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    I guess he was dissapointed with the webGL capabilities (but it was before webGL 1.0, made with actionScript). Its 7 years ago he started threeJS. Crazy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  35. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Remember he's a member of the demoscene. For the most part it exists to show off the programming and content creation skills of the members and reinventing the wheel is very much a part of this. If I had to guess his motivation was likely no more than that he could.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
    Martin_H likes this.
  36. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    So true ! I was allways amazed by the DemoScene. Don´t know many of them, but as i can remember one of their goals are to keep the fileSize of the app, as small as possible.
     
  37. shader13

    shader13

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    The thinking in runtime is GOOD, but I am curious how Apple think about it?
     
  38. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    Hm, Apple Devices support allready webGL, right ? Guess they are willing to accept webGL & other runtime S***
     
  39. passerbycmc

    passerbycmc

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    how does this matter, the whole point is that it runs in the browser.
     
  40. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Unity ECS seems to be very modular and small?!
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  41. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    Here are All-Vids:

    Democratizing Data-Oriented Design: Evolving Unity
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/241945353

    Democratizing Data-Oriented Design: Job System & Entity Component System
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/241981630

    Democratizing Data-Oriented Design: A Data-Oriented Approach to Using Component Systems
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/242024723?t=05m34s

    Democratizing Data-Oriented Design: From C# to Machine Code
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/242024723?t=01h34m26s

    Democratizing Data-Oriented Design: ECS for Small Things
    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/242024723?t=03h04m41s

    Thx to Kamyker for the Links.
     
    Kamyker likes this.
  42. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    I have to say: i don´t got it with: Democratizing Data-Oriented Design: ECS for Small Things .
    As i understood, through ECS you can disable as many components as you want, to get your small size. But i have no idea what Entity Component System means. In the term of, what do i have to change in my current workflow
     
  43. Arowx

    Arowx

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    It depends on your target platform, Unity Small is based initially on Java Script code, Unity Big C#.

    Think smaller chunks of data not big MonoBehaviour kitchen sink objects but tiny components like Health float health, maxHealth;

    And systems that interact with a subset of components e.g. CollisionSystem only deals with components that have Damage, Health or Physics.
     
  44. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    Okay...somehow, it make me sad, as i watched until and to the Q&A. Somebody asked if 3D will be supported, so his answer was: not yet.....but in a distant future :(:D:D
     
    rob_ice likes this.
  45. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Check out Imposters, where you render 3D objects from all angles as sprites and then present them in 2D e.g. the original Wolfenstein. You can still have fun and even present your 3D games as super light demos.
     
  46. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    The problem with impostors is that they're very high-storage and high-memory, especially if you want to animate them in any way past viewing from another angle.
     
  47. Arowx

    Arowx

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    Actually as Unity Small is JS what's stopping developers from bringing in third party 3D solutions or making their own?
     
  48. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

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    Hope that we can force iframe this 73 to center fit and full cover the screen in the background using HTML5 CSS3
    [question link] so I can make my website without learning curve
     
  49. sledgeman

    sledgeman

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    For small HTML5 stuff you have other engines , authoring tools. So its not really attractive , for 2D things. I don't get it, why they are not working on a 3D 72kb core thingy. This is where demands are ! 3D for the web. There are some tools in the asset store for threeJS. Don't know how well this 3rd party works....
     
  50. Deeeds

    Deeeds

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    The target of this small stuff is WeChat.

    And WeChat.

    Plus WeChat.