3D Game Workflow Questions

Hello everyone!

I'm super new to Unity and 3D modeling. I try not to ask questions, though feel I'm at a point where someone could help me, or point me to something I can read. I apologize for being so newb.

I'm interested in making a game similar to Captain Toad Treasure Tracker: a skill/puzzle based 3D platformer.

In creating the 3D models and textures, what's the workflow I should expect?

For instance, here's an image of a level from Captain Toad Treasure Tracker.



How much of this level design would you think happens within the 3D modeling application? Thinking through it, I would assume the large static portions of the level are custom built and textured, then pieced together within the game environment.

Elements such as the tree, grass/flowers, reusable elements, interactive elements, and parts of the level that move/animate separately from the large portions of the level would be different mesh objects. Is this correct thinking?

-- Would I create separate mesh items for every individual blade of grass?

-- If I create custom game models for every level, and texture them separately, I feel that would add a lot to the size of the game (a lot of very similar textures, and not a lot of reuse). Also, it's not very DRY (Don't Repeat Yourself). So, if I decide to change the grass color on one model, for consistency, I'd have to redo the textures on all of my levels. Is there a better way?

-- I've learned that in-game models in Unity (and other game engines, I'm sure) do not support sub-divided surfaces. So, referring back to the above image, how would I create the rounded corners you see on some of the buildings? Is this primarily done through normal masking, or freezing sub-divided surfaces into polygons? I've tried the freeze option, it just seems to add a lot of triangles to the level and the rounded portion is still jagged.

-- I've purchased Modo 801. Alas, I can't find tutorial content that teaches a Modo for game development workflow. There was one from digital tutors course that was super helpful, though if I can find more content for a Modo game developer, that would be superb. Is there any other software you'd recommend for someone just starting out?

If you have any insights for me, or can point me in the right direction, please let me know. Any and all help is appreciated. Thanks!

 

Thats a lot of ground to cover.
the entire thing could be made in a 3d modeling app , could be tile set , maybe Probuilder 2.
It sounds like you have not dabbled much in 3D and less so game 3D.

here is a short summary suggestions.

• Learn your software , modo is fantastic for modeling. I use it myself as well as Blender and 3d-coat.
• make simple shapes and expand from there , I take it you haven't used modo much if you don know how to bevel edges. (in modo create a cube , press 2 ,select all edges of a quad , hit B ,and use the scale handle )
• use tile sets , and combine the meshes inside unity for fast level building. there is a lot of good tile tools available.
• retexture tile sets and make variants of them
• Use texture atlases
• use transparent 2d quads for grass

I think you have a clear vision of what you want. But you overcomplicate the road to it.
in other words practice shapes , texturing said shapes, animate if needed , repeat.


http://wiki.polycount.com/wiki/Polycount
this is a good place to start along with the accompanying forum.

 

Thanks Hoegbo,

I have to say, ProBuilder looks amazing. I looked at it a few weeks ago though must have not observed the details of what was being offered. I can quickly prototype level designs before I spend the time texturing everything, and with such flexibility! Prettying exciting stuff; great suggestion.

As for modeling, I've gone through a ton of tutorials. Definitely know how to bevel, lol. My problem is the transitioning from Modo to Unity. Unity doesn't support sub-divided surfaces, so obtaining smooth rounded corners has been somewhat of a puzzle. That's why I was talking about normal mapping and freezing sub-d to polygons. My target platform will be mobile, so freezing a sub-d surface seems to output a lot of unnecessary triangles.

2D quads for grass makes sense. And using QuickDecal from ProBuilder, I have other options to decorate my levels.

I think ProBuilder makes the most sense to me. I can use Modo for complex modeling and animation, and use ProBuilder for level design, texturing, and prototyping. Any other thoughts you think could help? Thanks for your time!

 

What you looking for goes by different names, in 3dsmax/modo/probuilder it's called "smoothing groups", in maya it's "soft/hard edges", in blender it's "smooth/sharp shading". What it does:


From playing Captain Toad, the levels' base geometry looked unique and weren't reused in other levels. Only textures and small objects were reused between levels. This let Nintendo deliver are very detailed and polished look and gameplay to each level. You could do the same thing on mobile but maybe not at the same level of detail.

 

Hi MurDocINC,

Thanks for that explanation. I don't expect to match Nintendo's level of polish by myself, though it's a worthy goal I feel. Knowing the term is a big help in finding helpful information. I'll most definitely be reading all I can about it. Thanks for your help!

 

No game engine supports that so you need those extra triangles, except for those situations where it can be faked with normal maps and smoothing groups. As MurDocINC's picture shows, it does nothing for the silhouette of the object.

Use Farfarer's Vertex Normal Toolkit plugin for smoothing in Modo.

 

Once you learn how to 3d model, you'll find ways of tricking perception with as little detail as possible. This isn't something you learn from a book or someone telling you, this is stuff you learn from experience and trying new ways of doing things. I can make like the entire level in the photo with less than 1000 polygons (just random number as I don't know how many they used) but for sure less than 1000 and make it look as detailed if not more.

But however, the model is one thing, where you really get your good looks for level isn't just 100% the model, but the Shader used. Shaders bring your models to life, if your Shader sucks, your model sucks as well. if your Model sucks, your Shader sucks. They have to be pretty much like a Marriage, they both go 50/50. If one looks worse than the other, they both look bad.

So learning Shader language and Modeling, will really make your stuff look good!

Hope that helps buddy!

 

@N1warhead

Luckily enough on today's hardware you don't need to as much, I've tested 11+ Million poly's in a scene without a massive impact to frame rate on older hardware. Today I'd be much more concerned with lighting / shadows and shaders. Although decimation techniques and clean up alg's have gotten better over the years so there's little reason not to drop the polys.

@Akaishen

-- Would I create separate mesh items for every individual blade of grass?

Nope, in Unity you'd add a texture with an alpha channel (clear channel) cutout. Google alpha channels, it will add it to a plane which will then be painted on as grass. The alpha channel provides the information on what it needs to (cut out) we use a transparency (cut-out) type of shader to do so, don't worry it's supplied with Unity.

-- If I create custom game models for every level, and texture them separately, I feel that would add a lot to the size of the game (a lot of very similar textures, and not a lot of reuse). Also, it's not very DRY (Don't Repeat Yourself). So, if I decide to change the grass color on one model, for consistency, I'd have to redo the textures on all of my levels. Is there a better way?

There was a guy who was working on a UE4 project and all his meshes came from one "atlas" or packed texture, he just shared it with one material. Personally myself, I think it's a little overkill but still it's not a bad way to work.

-- I've purchased Modo 801. Alas, I can't find tutorial content that teaches a Modo for game development workflow. There was one from digital tutors course that was super helpful, though if I can find more content for a Modo game developer, that would be superb. Is there any other software you'd recommend for someone just starting out?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H4Mv-9Zryg-Vn-5cA2g7eqIwLbiJD5ELHcjgGcPN1so/edit?pli=1

This came in very handy when I switched from 3DSMax to Modo. I still use Maya for some things because it's simpler to do so, but for surface and level modelling Modo is hard to beat.

 

I only read the part you mentioned to me so maybe you mentioned in other person you were speaking too.

But correct me if I'm wrong, (I could be as I haven't really used Unity 5 so much for final products yet) waiting to get my new CPU Next Month for anything major with it.

But the Realtime Light Baking and just in general light baking in Unity 5, the more polygons you have, the longer it takes to bake right?

So if that's the case, a little 500 poly level of mine takes almost an hour to bake.
Imagine 11 million oh dear god lol.

But whether I need to decimate or remove polys by hand, it's a habitual habit for me to do it, doesn't hurt to do it anyways lol. I am very adiment about if there is a poly that will never be seen, ever, to delete it lol.

 

Generally GI solutions use Lightmap UV's, I know Enlighten used to use Proxy Geometry for pre-cache. But I've seen in Unity 5, you need decent lightmap UV's without overlapping bounds or things get a bit screwy. In UE Lightmass uses Lightmap UV's too.

This is the one reason I'll try to drop down on the amount of poly's, UV mapping. I have an inert hatred for UV mapping and will dance around like a fruitcake the day someone replaces it..

 

I hate UV's as well, it's so much more complicated than it really needs to be. I don't get how things like ZBrush have Polypaint, you paint on the model, but yet it doesn't save it to Uv's... How does it paint on something with percision without any Uv's to paint onto? So why can't it make Uv's based off of where the Polypaint is.

I just know there has to be some other way of doing things to make it work better than UV's. I hate UV's, people misunderstood me when I first came into Unity Community.

Yeah I've been modeling nearly 20 years, but that's it modeling, I have avoided texturing because it's a pain, one I could gladly say I wished never existed, because there has to be another way yet undiscovered, there just has to be.

 

Okay so, the general workflow for 3D is this:

- Concept
- Layout (aka blocking)
- Fine mesh/UV
- Props/Assets (aka details)

Keep texturing as a separate workflow as it, usually, depends a lot on material/shading, (this is unless it is used as a substitute for a physical mesh, e.g. details on a character could be planes with a transparency map).

Modification of this workflow is of course required depending on what type of 3D model you are doing, eg. level, character, minor asset.

But most important of all, make most of the changes(read: all) early in the workflow, and only minor changes late in the workflow.

 

I believe zbrush does its own variation of vertex colour when painting on mesh, as it is scaled with model resolution. At any rate the painting tools in zbrush is very simplistic (even with zapplink) compared to mudbox, bodypaint or mari.

 

To me it's not the texturing that's the pain, that might even be my favourite part. The pain is the UV unwrapping itself.

 

It appears I originally posted this in the wrong forum. Thanks to whoever moved it here. Lots of great advice and insights.

We've brushed a bit on texturing, with the whole UV discussion. I was wondering what the general opinion of Substance Database 2 was? In some ways, it seems like a great deal to get (50% off for Pro users on Level 11). In other ways... it seems to fit a specific style of game, and not the happy, bright, and colorful feel of a Nintendo game. Then again, they are dynamic textures, and you can change them quite a bit.

What do you guys do for texturing?

Thanks for all the replies! I'm bookmarking sites, and writing everything down.

 

Thanks for the mention- about those UVs, two things there:

1) They seem crazy at first, but it'll "click" after a bit of use and become clear and obvious. Also, regardless of complexity, get used to 'em- you'll need that skillset.

2) ProBuilder does have "AutoUVs" that pretty much take care of themselves, for basic stuff. Might be a good way to start in. You can edit the AutoUV values, and watch the UV layout change in our UV editor simultaneously. Once you gain the confidence/skills, you can do full UV Unwrapping/etc via the Manual UVs.

Most importantly, don't ignore UVs, that's a core bit of knowledge. Can't get around it

Good luck with your project!

 

Sorry for the super late reply.

Thanks for your post Yahodahan. I did buy ProBuilder and followed all the video tutorials. Thus far, it's pretty great. The UV editor seems rather straight forward. Of course, I'm still only manipulating simple shapes. UV unwrapped a complex character model in Modo is likely still a bit of a challenge, though I feel I understand the process well enough. I just need time and practice now. Anyway, thanks again for your reply!

 

Yep.
https://www.unrealengine.com/showcase/amazing-one-texture-enviroment
If this is what you're talking about
It was really interesting to look at.
Very informative read too.