-

You weren't just randomly blurting out a scientific fact unrelated to anything; you were making a case for why it's ok for male protagonists to outnumber female protagonists. The atomic weight of lithium is 6.491, by the way.

So? That doesn't mean they aren't overwhelmingly targeting a specific one. It also doesn't account for all the ones saying that they don't care about any demographics but themselves and are just doing what they want to do.

 

Actually, take a look at my steam page; most of my played games have no story line or the genders are swappable. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm somehow a misogynist.

No I wasn't.

What they're doing is going where the money is and there's less and less money every day in that demographic which is why we're seeing the shift to casual games IMO . And those games targeted to straight white men? I see all types of people playing them.

 

I never said you were, and I haven't said anything about you personally at all. I don't see how this has anything to do with anything I've said.

Hippo said that men should always be rescuing helpless women in games and not vice versa because men are physically superior. Taschenscheiber said that it's not necessarily true, and that some women are stronger than men and so the roles could be reversed. You disagreed and said it's a scientific fact that if you chose a random man and a random woman of the same age, the man would always win the fight. Going back to what I said earlier, if you REALLY don't care if there are more games where a girl is rescuing a guy, then why are you fighting it?

Again, that's irrelevant; it doesn't matter why they are doing it, the point is they're still targeting that demographic, and I was mostly arguing against people claiming that that wasn't happening.

 

I may have gone overboard when I looked back at that, it doesn't change the fact you were implying I was lying.

Not fighting it at all, I've only responded to things in this thread that I don't agree with.

No, I said I would bet money on it because that's a bet I have a much greater chance of winning at than a trip to the casino.

I don't really know how to target the straight white male demographic..it seems like every game that supposedly does also has a bunch of other demographics in it. Now..I know how to target the straight male demographic..but that would be crossing the line into "adult entertainment" .

 

OK, buddy, just so long as you're not angry about it.

Well, you take that idea, but make the girls mostly white. And thus, half the female characters in games were born.

 

Well, I'm interested in how you determined the "fact" that I, alone, am responsible for stopping the entirety of humanity's social advancement. This is a pretty big responsibility. I mean, I was planning on just eating a donut and doing some programming but now I feel like maybe I should like, wipe out a continent or two with the power of my mind or something.

 

Since I can't really quote the bit where you highlighted, I can see where the misunderstanding happened...when I said it's not a claim it's a fact I was referring to the fact that men are generally stronger and not that the bet is always guaranteed, that would be a silly thing for me to say.

I'd certainly love to see different more types of females represented..I also want to see more types of men represented. The reasons for why it's like this can be many, budget is probably a big one. I certainly don't think it's "straight white men" though and saying stuff like that is detrimental.

 

So are you saying that you think a game dev team entirely made of, say, black women making a game designed specifically for black women wouldn't be able to find room in their budget to actually include any black women, and would instead spend it all on different character models of white men?

 

It looks like race and sex is really important to you, I really don't know how to reply to someone who puts this much emphasis and importance on it.

I really don't know how to target specifically black women, can you enlighten me?

 

That sounds like avoiding the question to me.

Sure. You could, for example, make the protagonist a black woman, and include several strong supporting characters who were black and/or women. You'd also want to make sure to avoid negative stereotypes of black people and/or women.

 

Here, let me give you an even harder-to-weasel-out-of example: Let's say you're playing an "adult entertainment" game, like you mentioned earlier. One game only lets you have sex with a bunch of women. The other only lets you have sex with a bunch of men. Which one do you choose? Are you going to tell me that even now, gender makes absolutely no difference and is entirely trivial to you?

 

It is

That herein lies the problem, you think the way of targeting a group of people is making them the center of a game...it's not.

The former; if it's the one where I get to have sex with a bunch of men I'd imagine it'll become boring quickly since there would be a lack of variety wouldn't you say?

 

You just claimed to have no idea how to target any demographics. How are you so certain that I (and the entire collective demographic marketing division of nearly every company ever) am wrong? You keep saying you have absolutely no clue what any demographic at all likes, so how can you also claim to be an expert on it?

So, you're admitting that gender does sometimes matter, and it's not trivial. That's good. Now you just have to get to the point where you can admit that maybe, just maybe, other straight guys also prefer to look at girls in skimpy outfits rather than guys in skimpy outfits, and maybe you'll understand why putting a room full of straight guys alone in charge of character costume design tends to come out looking differently than a room full of gay guys or straight women.

 

No way, I am dual wielding grinding axes right now. I call the one on the right Freedom and the one on the left Equality.

 

Must be difficult marketing a game with no gender in it..no demographic to appeal to.

Nah, just that I'm not really sure there's much gameplay in a man-on-man situation since there's not a whole lot of ways to go about it. But I should take that somewhere else, there's kids reading.

 

Man, this discussion sure has become a giant trainwreck.

 

I don't share your feeling!

 

No, I'm a social justice RANGER fascist. I took ranger to get dual wield for free so I could wield Freedom and Equality. Also, I picked up Favored Enemy: Gamers and Favored Terrain: Cyberspace.

 

Honestly I can't even figure out what you're arguing about anymore. Can you? Are you saying that you literally don't believe that corporations market to specific demographics? Like, you think marketing departments don't exist and that it's a conspiracy made up by people on the internet? I don't get it.

I really hope you don't believe that I actually believe you here.

 

"Real men" don't feel the need to get the last word. They walk away.

 

Pfft, no way, my "social justice ranger" line was pure gold. I need to remember to reuse that when someone starts up a new thread about Zoe Quinn or something. Also the part about Dabeh only having sex with girls because they have an extra hole was kind of funny.

 

Was the point..

 

... are you serious?

(And because there are kids reading, I won't elaborate on this. But it's pretty much complete nonsense.)

 

Alternatively...

• Real (Wo)Men (Aurore, Hippocoder) walk up to a dragon and order it to leave before someone gets hurt.
• Thespians (most of this thread) write character-length biographies detailing their life story and minutiae about their character.
• Brains (no one in this thread, or we wouldn't keep responding to it) actually disarm the six-skull trap.
• Loonies (probably all of us in this thread) will do anything for a cheap laugh, including linking to this GIF.
• Munchkins (makeshiftwings) try to 'win' even though A) it's not a game, B) it's not a RPG of any description, and C) you can't dual wield Freedom and Equality unless you're a warrior, those are two-handed weapons. What, do you have an Iron Bottle with a deity trapped inside?

This thread is starting to remind me of the 'design a game six words at a time' thread, that Aurore graciously locked down after allowing us to educate ourselves in why such a topic was a very bad idea. Maybe we can get some locking love here?

 

I'm sure Sarkeesian wouldn't have any objections over Frogger and Duck Hunt.

Also, games like these are pretty boring.

And the answer is simple: Make games that have no characters, or at least no plot. Voilá, no sexism and racism. I've said that before. But that won't help anything to minimize any differences in real life, just make rather boring games.

As soon as you have characters and plots, your game will reflect on real life issues, because that's how storytelling works. And then you will have to think about what stance you want to take. Ignoring real life issues is, of course, an option, but that's still taking a stance: namely the stance that everything is fine as is, or at least that it is none of your concern.

 

Yes. Plenty of historical leaders have attempted to suppress and eradicate ethnic differences and create one united monolithic new world order. And now, they are almost all universally considered evil.

 

Sarkeesian would , if not already totally bashed Pac-Man. Look at Ms.Pac-Man,..slap a Bow on it,..Bam,..woman! heh

Go back a bit further,..I remember a game for Atari,..now..unless it's in some fineprint in the 'instructions'( who reads those!?) ,..it could be argued that this 'hero' could be any gender or race, least while playing.


You're a square with a 'sword'. Ok ok,.it is discriminating all the circles and triangles,..ugg,..can't win.

I'm not 'white'( ok, if you were blind, you may think I was),..and my friend is black. He cringes whenever he cannot make a black character in an MMO, but thankfully it is rare. The Secret World Online has a fantastic variety of cultures,..albeit with zombies not far away.

"examples of game genres that can appeal to both men and women, across different ethnicities and races? "

Any game that gives the player options to be portrayed as they'd feel comfortable and treated by their actions should qualify, no?

MMO's for one. EDIT: ugg,..ignore all the anime-porn fanservice ones, pls
Those Tycoon games as mentioned.

Casual games blew the door open for normally non-gamers(men & women). and MMO's today are teeming with variety.
It's happening. the spread of players out there isn't just 13-yr old boys in America, right?

More and more women, and yeah ethnic,.( what is an ethnic? don't we all have ethnicity?!) are getting all the toys that used to belong to only a few.
Those RockStar days of MadMen style offices will naturally become more balanced.


Which will come first?

A diverse community of Devs that make "Gender and Ethnic Neutral games" without having to try.

or will the player community be so diverse as to equally play any game regardless if it is Gender and Ethnic Neutral?

 

Ha! Exactly what an NPC would say!

Well as you can tell from my photo, I am a metroid, so I use two tentacle-claws for each weapon.

 

as an aside,..my first game while learning Unity( MissionMoonCard, in my link) Don't play it,..it's sad))

I sorta purposefully made the point person who guides and instructs you an African-American woman because I thought it would be cool and it was the first image to pop into my head when drawing her.
Subconsciously it was probably a desire to have variety,.or maybe just tired of the screaming cigar smoking sergeant-type.

 

I can't help but notice you never answered my question about the iron bottle.

 

well,..that stuff happens now. People are jerks. But that'd be on the community, not the devs. And , at least in MMO's they usually DO monitor players for hate/anti-religious/ and sexualy harrassment acts.

 

to be fair,..pretty sure he meant that the Historical leaders doing the suppression/eradication were the ones universally considered evil.

I changed it because otherwise you're implying that we ALL must follow those wants, which is not the case.
Dealer's choice. You're edging on censorship now. Though, a particularly insensitive game may tank with the sales, that'd be on you alone for making it,..heh.

You are free to make any game you like. It is not hurtful if YOU want to(wait,..hurtful or evil to whom?) ,...But personally I would think it is hurtful to impose that sort of limitation. It can be interpreted too many ways and abused,.and we have enough of that as is. imho.

 

Makeshiftwings!

I like your passion, man, I really do. And I don't disagree with a lot of your sentiments, but you are coming off kind of overly aggressive I think. As an example, if this was the Civil Rights era I could kind of see you siding with Malcolm X rather than Martin Luther King, Jr.

Not that I'm implying that you are black, I don't know what race you are, and I actually prefer not to know, as I think that if your race were revealed it would become a strawman to attack. People seem a little touchy in these forums. Let's everyone take a deep breath, eh?

In any case, indie game development is not Hollywood. You don't have to fall victim to the wants of "The Man," whoever that "Man" might be. Unlike Hollywood, you are free to make whatever kind of game you want, and absolutely no one will stop you.

I don't think anyone on this thread will disagree with you that the majority (not all, but definitely higher than 50%) of white male game devs make games that feature a white male protagonist "saving the world." And many people who are not white and who are not males will still enjoy those games, as some have pointed out. But it's mainly through lack of options.

If a game dev wants to make a game with strong men rescuing weak women, because that is "historically accurate," then let him do so. Nothing really wrong with that, as long as these game devs don't actively try to prevent people from making games featuring strong female protagonists. As long as these types of game devs are continuing to enter a huge but highly-contested market, they are leaving the market wide open for games targeted toward smaller but wide-open under-represented markets.

Do you know what one of the top grossing games this year is? It's some glitzy Kim Kardashian game, made by Glu Mobile. I guarantee you not many straight white males (angry or not) are playing that game, but it is raking in hundreds of millions. If you look at the pictures of the Play Store reviewers, most of the players are young black and hispanic women. And Glu Mobile is headed mostly by white and Asian dudes, I believe. Those dudes were smart, because they knew branching out from their usual combat-heavy games would allow them to grab all that money laying on the table that other white and Asian male game devs were ignoring.

As you said, half of mobile game players these days are women. And the majority are definitely not playing high-tech shoot-em-ups like Call of Duty. I guarantee you, if you make games specifically targeted toward non-white non-males, you will capture a large market segment that is currently being under-served. As an example, imagine an indie game dev making a mobile game specifically targeted toward empowering young teenage black girls. It may not be a big market compared to young white gamer males. But such an app would capture every single user in that market group, and could certainly make an indie dev a significant amount of money.

Smart developers find the under-served portion of the market, and dominate it. That is the gist what the OP was looking for I think.

On that note, I really hope we male brutes do not continue to bicker and chase Teila out of this thread. As the lone female voice (of reason?), she is providing information that can potentially make us male devs a lot of money. So I really want to continue to hear her input.

P.S. Not that it's all about money... I honestly think Makeshiftwings cares about the social justice side of this issue more than anything. But I don't think you have to go complaining to (white or whatever) male devs and try to force them to agree with you, or even understand, to bring about your vision of social change... I think you can just go ahead and make a bunch of games that empower under-represented groups, and I wouldn't be surprised if you became a millionaire in the process as you sought to bring about your vision of social justice, and helped a lot of under-represented people at the same time.

P.P.S. Not saying the good ol' USA is perfect, I am well aware of your point that we have done many questionable things to piss off many nations in the world. However, the core of what I think is so great about this country, is that anyone can come here and follow their dreams and passions, and get rich to boot! Isn't that why we indie devs are doing what we do, so we don't have to be under the thumb of the Corporate "Man" ??

 

Give them mechanics that have enough depth to carry the game on their own. Like Poker or Chess (and yeah, I've seen them become strawmen here, but I haven't heard criticism of them from any self-respecting feminists), or World of Tanks, or Civilization, or whatever.

But the only reason storytelling - and games with storytelling - appeal to us is because they reflect in some way upon our real life. Breaking Bad or the "new" Battlestar Galactica or Game of Thrones paint worlds that are far away from optimal, and still, people like them.

Also, I'd like to point out that BSG and GoT are actually pretty good examples that "not being sexist" in your games does not mean pointing out how awesome women are every five minutes. BSG just has female characters in important roles and it's no big deal. The president's a woman? Everybody's okay with that. The president is the former minister of education? THAT's a reason to pan them. Or take Game of Thrones - that series even features women in weak and disempowered roles all the time, but still they are acting, not reacting, they have agendas, they do not rely on males to do everything for them. Especially notable with Arya, Daenarys and Cersei (especially in book four). In short: They are people.

At least from my stance, that's clear proof that you can create plots that are non-sexist without giving up any artistic liberty, and your storytelling will actually benefit from making characters of different ethnicities, genders, sexual orientations and favourite colour of Skittles relevant for the story. Simply because those characters are different and different characters are what makes a story complex, interesting and non-stereotypical.

Of course, I am not a woman (as you can see in my avatar, I'm actually Big Boss), just somebody who thinks everybody should be treated like a person. So some people might disagree, especially on Game of Thrones, and I am so not trying to marginalize their positions. Like I pointed out before, feminists are not some kind of hivemind, just a bunch of people with somewhat relating ideas and ideals.[/QUOTE]

 

Nice to see the discussion become interesting again.

I have said this so many times...I don't think anyone needs to conform to another person's standard of game genre or style. If one wants to make a game that with a social conscious, then so be it. My decisions for our game are not made to be politically correct. They are made to attract the types of players I want to play my game. If that means that I make a culture within our game that is matriarchal, then they is what I will do. If I want a dark skinned culture that is neutral, not good or bad, but like all the other humans in the game, then I will do that. Will it draw women and people of color to my game? Maybe. Will it turn off white men? I doubt it. In fact, I worked for a game that did just that and we had many women (usually older women), many men (usually white), and people of color who commended us for being different. That is the player base I want. Plus it makes the game and story more interesting for everyone.

On the other hand, if my game inadvertently makes a statement that is good for society, it will make me happy. I doubt it will...but who knows!

I absolutely agree!

I have teenagers. When I try to get them to do something, try something new, they almost always fight me at first. I have already raised two teenagers so I am an old hat at this. I often say to them, I am not out to change you, just expose you to new opportunities. The vast majority of the time, they ignore me until they are ready to figure it out on their own.

So consider at least my participation to this thread as simply exposing you to something different. However, as Tashenshieber says, you can make a non-sexist plot without giving up anything. On the other hand, you don't have to do so if that doesn't suit your vision. Stick with your vision. BUT don't slam people who introduce new ideas. You are not compelled to listen.

Rsr asked a question and we are trying to answer him (well, some of us are ). Try not to read too much into the responses.

As for Game of Thrones, those women are strong in the context of the time depicted in the game. They are tossing out the ideas of powerless women and finding power in their own style. Compared to modern women, they still have predefined roles and boundaries, but compared to medieval times, they are amazing women.

 

Oh, you should read some medieval history.

Eleanor of Aquitaine takes the cake as the most powerful, influential, and generally hardcore woman of the Middle Ages. She had the good fortune to be born to a father who was concerned about leaving a competent heir to the rulership of the Aquitaine region, for starters. For herself, she had a number of good qualities: great political sense, great beauty, a strong will, and was pretty bright. She was among the first to formally take up the cross of the 2nd Crusade. I read somewhere that she was handy with a sword as well, but in a cursory glance of the wikipedia article, I'm not seeing it. Still, not a lady to be underestimated, even with the rather harsh restrictions women endured at the time - especially being a woman of royal birth.

Queen Melisende of Jerusalem was another hardcore nobly-born lady. A cousin of Baldwin I (yes, the guy who established the Crusader State of Edessa), she ascended to the crown of Jerusalem alongside her parents* Baldwin II and his wife, Morphia. She was (rather unusually for Frankish law) raised as heir presumptive, and married her to Louis VI of France to ensure there was sufficient force behind her to safeguard her position and lands. Fulk V, Count of Anjou and Main, was assigned to that area for what amounted to security, but wound up trying by force to limit her power with his force of Crusader Knights after marrying her and siring Baldwin III. Due to deft political maneuvering, a strong will of her own, and loyal followers, his efforts didn't really account to much in the end. Her call for help after the fall of Edessa, and the onslaught of Saladin, led directly to the Second Crusade. Her son, Baldwin III and her had a brief division (one that included opposed armies), but even though he wound up formally taking over, she still wielded considerable influence over Outremer, and died on good terms with her. And everyone knew that screwing with her was a profoundly terrible idea.

Even though I wasn't the best at medieval history when I took it in college, there's some really interesting stories interwoven into it. It's easy to lose these awesome stories when you're deluged by names and dates, as is so often the case in a classroom setting, but sitting down and doing some cursory Google research...well, it's worthwhile.

Crown Princess was originally going to be based off of Eleanor of Aquitaine's life, but I couldn't figure out a good way to make a fun, generally appealing game without leaving history off on the side of the road. That was one reason I abandoned that project.

*: I goofed. She actually set a trend for a new ruler being co-crowned with her parents. She did the same with Baldwin III, her son. Sorry!

 

I do. Actually, further up the thread I mentioned the same exact thing, even Eleanor who was awesome. Along with Emma, wife of Cnute..one of my favorites. What a woman!

I guess I should have said "compared to the depiction of medieval women in most entertainment media..."

Thanks for calling me out on that. Ladies in the medieval ages actually had way more power than in the Renaissance and the Victorian eras.

 

What I find interesting from a historical perspective here in the West (Europe, mostly) is that women lost influence over time. Since the political structure of Europe up to the Reformation/Counter-Reformation was dictated by religion, it might seem an interesting fact that in the early Christian church (before Catholicism or Eastern Orthodox were even a thing), women wielded great power in their religious communities.

In fact, had Frankish Law been more receptive to women holding places of power, some of the gender inequalities we see in the modern day West would likely be less bad (after all, the powerful ladies were well-known outliers.) There are still other religious ideas, like the doctrine of Original Sin, which was formalized before even the first Council of Nicea, that wound up circumscribing women's options in higher roles in the Church (and, bear in mind - the modern idea of secular states is a modern one. For a very long time, there was no division between Church and State. If you were apostate, you were guilty of treason by default. The Church didn't have to send anyone after you; that was the job of Those Who Fight, not Those Who Pray.)

Anyways, I've dwelled on history a wee bit too long. Are we suitably off topic yet, or do we need to go further into the weeds? I think I see someone's golf ball.

 

I love history! I could talk about it all day long.

Most games that take place in a medieval setting are fantasy, so there is some leeway in the roles of women compared to men. Of course, like men, women want to play the hero, the woman who is different from the average women in the game world. History gives us some ideas for making our heroes as does mythology. Just remember, Guinevere was a product of a later period of time than the time depicted in the myth. She represents the romantic ideals of chivalry, women are respected because they need protection, a common scene still in many stories and games. Beautiful story and one worthy of attention but still a story. History tends to be more gritty and the real female heroes much less romantic.

A fantasy woman can be much tougher and the roles for women can be different. A woman can be a warrior. Even Tolkien thought so and he was from a different time as well. Jordon and Martin certainly give us a few memorable females as well.

If I truly wanted to make a gender neutral game, I would probably avoid history and move into the fantasy realm. You have so much more freedom there. Science Fiction too or any post modern setting would work. Look at Star Trek? And there are some very strong women in the newer rendition of Battlestar Galactica. Both also do well with racial issues.

 

Not going to lie, I'm not sure who got the sweeter deal in that one - Faramir, or Eowyn (spoiler alert, btw)

 

Well Aragorn prolly runs things in Gondor,..But Eowyn inherited the whole of Rohan, didn't she!! So yeah,..Faramir can sit pretty playing with his horses and let her deal with the politics

oh no,..no more tolkien topics,..must,..stop,.....must resist,..

 

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Well, so far the people who have argued with me have said that:
A) I, alone, am the single cause of all inequality in the world.
B) It is literally impossible for a group of straight white males to lean towards featuring straight white male protagonists, and implying that they do makes you a racist.
C) Demographics don't exist, and no company has ever even attempted to market to any of them, because it is literally impossible to do.
D) Maybe, possibly, there is some truth to the notion that there are a lot of games with white male protagonists, but even if it is true, it absolutely definitely has nothing at all to do with the designers being white men.

So... I'm not quite sure the "majority" does actually agree with that statement. If they did, I probably wouldn't be quite so irate.

True enough. You know what is one of the most hated games this year? That very same Kim Kardashian game. Go to almost any game forum, and you'll find at least a few threads full of angry white dudes screaming and yelling about how that game is destroying gaming for everyone and that everyone who plays it is an idiot, and that all "real" gamers need to rally and stop games like it from ever being made again. This is rather central to the whole problem. The same people who say "Devs should just make games for whatever demographic they want" when defending games aimed at their own demographic are the same people who freak out and have a heart attack any time someone actually does make money catering to a different demographic, and go on epic gamer purity crusades throughout the internet. Hell, there are threads about Kardashian's game in this very forum where the same people in this thread pretending all they want is for everyone to make whatever game they want are losing their S*** over how unfair it is that a game like Kardashian's is popular.

 

EDIT: I'm not criticizing anyone who hates a game because it is crappy. I am criticizing those who are upset that a game is targeting a demographic (teenage girls) whom they feel are not "worthy" of being called "true" gamers. The reality is that the Kim Kardashian game is anything but crappy -- it is a slick, well-made game with familiar (rpg-ish) game mechanics. Game devs would be wise to take note if they wish to target new markets.

Wow. If any game dev is losing their s*** over the success of the Kim Kardashian game then they are just completely stupid. We game devs are in this business (yes, business) to make a living (i.e. make money) are we not? If I saw a game blow up in a under-served market I would seriously investigate that market for myself, not get irate over the fact that it's not a "real" game. Who are these stupid game devs who are angry?

Now, if you mean gamers and not game devs, then I got news for those idiots... there are currently literally millions of happy young black and hispanic gamer girls (yes they ARE gamers) playing that game. Welcome to 2014 jackasses. Back in the 1950s, there were millions of racist white males who were irate when schools were desegregated. Change causes fear. Just like during the civil rights, these new jackasses will get over it, or just like back then, their generation will die off, and their kids won't think like them. There were also many white males who marched for equal rights side-by-side with black protestors. Being a white male doesn't automatically make one a white devil (no matter what Malcolm X said). I think you need to slow your roll a bit.

In regards to straight white male protagonists in games today, like I said, don't lose sleep over it. Most games made in the US have featured straight white male protagonists because people like to create things that reflect themselves. That's why movies produced by Tom Cruise tend to feature straight white male protagonists. That's why movies produced by Will Smith tend to feature straight black male protagonists. Shrug. Most US game devs are straight white males. Ergo.

I bet Teila never made a game featuring a macho white male protagonist mowing down legions of enemies. Cuz she's a woman and a mom, she probably wants to make games that heavily feature or cater to women and kids, and aren't too violent. I personally like to make ultra-violent games (especially zombie games), just because I like to play them. I think Ippdev mentioned he doesn't make games featuring violence or zombies.

Game devs make games that reflect their own demographic and interests. If you went to Asia, I'm sure the majority of games feature straight Asian male protagonists. If you went to Africa, I'm sure the majority of games feature straight African male protagonists (I'm personally not sure about the size of the African gaming industry).

Since this is the US, and most game devs so far are straight white males, the majority games feature straight white male protagonists. Nothing new here. Why does this irk you so much? You are free to make games featuring purple lesbian lizards. Like I said, no one is going to stop you. If some white male devs are hating on games that feature minority characters, let those haters hate while you get rich serving an under-served market, e.g. young black and hispanic teenage girls.

Some straight white male game devs are aiming to do just that, either for the profit potential, or because they simply don't care about gender or ethnicity at all, or -*surprise*- some straight white males want to see more representation for under-served populations too (such as women and minorities). Yes, such beings do in fact exist.

Personally I would absolutely love it if some of these Kim Kardashian app-playing teenage black and hispanic girls were inspired to go on and start careers as game devs. I would welcome them with open arms, and consider them my brothers-and-sisters-in-arms.

 

I don't know, it sounds like we're in agreement. When I pointed out that straight white men tend to create games featuring straight white men, half the thread's heads exploded and they said I was wrong, racist, and "the sole reason that humanity can not advance" (since deleted, it appears). As for what "irks" me, it is partly the domination of that culture, but mostly, at least in this thread, the head-in-the-sand absolute refusal to admit that it is happening from the people fighting hardest to ensure it continues to happen.

 

Not to mention the lockstep word-for-word mimicking of the 4chan misogyny brigade. Seeing sock puppets call other people sock puppets is quite annoying. It's like when Fox News started calling everything the Democrats did "Orwellian" for a few months, when it was clear that none of the newscasters knew what the word meant. The irony almost made my head explode.

 

I believe indie gamers should make games they want to make. It is hard work and easy to lose motivation. If you don't care about the game, it would even more difficult to finish.

I would not make a fps military style game. You are right on that one. I can handle fantasy violence but realistic modern genres bother me. That doesn't mean I am criticizing anyone here or that I think these are bad games. They are simply not a game type that would motivate me enough to get me to work as hard as I am working now. I have played games where I had to go out and fight...and I find them boring for the most part, although I never willingly play PvP. Mostly because I get scared and die unless I manage to run away. Really..I have a very good imagination and get easily immersed.

However, I am not making kids games or games that cater to women. Our current game is multiplayer has a pretty well rounded following, men and women of all ages although we are making it for adults. I would prefer at least 16 and up if possible. It will be a gritty game, with PvP and life will be difficult. It is a game where players will work together and build a community. This game is my dream game, the one I want to play. I would prefer it was set in a modern setting since those are my favorite games, but there are compromises since I am not making this game alone.

I wish I were one of those people who could dedicate myself to educational games, and maybe we will make a few later. But moms need to escape as well so a game where I can live as another person in another time, another world and interact with my friends...that sounds fun. I am a role player at heart.

 

Haha I still remember my first ever PvP fight. My heart was pounding so hard I thought it was going to jump out of my chest. After a few dozen PvP fights my pulse barely registered an increase. You should give PvP another shot! I know some girls who got over the initial fear and became PvP monsters, lol.

Anyway, I totally agree indie game devs should make games they truly want to make, because it is absolutely so easy to lose motivation and quit mid-project. If people want to make violent shooters featuring white male protagonists, or glitzy Hollywood games featuring minorities, or educational games featuring moms, or rpgs featuring non-human aliens, I sincerely say good luck to all of them.

Indie game dev is so democratic that you don't need to convince anyone to make any certain type of game -- you can just make it yourself! That's what I love about this medium.

 

Oh, I have tried. I don't think I will ever be a PvP monster. But that is okay, someone needs to be the healer or the dancer or the innkeeper in the game. I can handle combat in tabletop gaming but in video games, it is just too real!

 

I'm wondering if killing spiders in MMOs has helped my girlfriend with her fear of spiders in a pretty similar way. The first time she ran into a spider in an MMO she closed her eyes and pressed buttons randomly, but now she'll face them down. In the real world they still bother her, but I think less than they used to.

@Telia, combat in video games bothered me when I first started playing, until at some point I decided it was ok to lose. That took the feeling of time pressure off, because instead of my brain going into survival mode and wanting to rush everything to stave off defeat I'd casually observe and respond. If I was taking damage that was no big deal, I'd already accepted it as just something that happens, another piece of data to take into account. With a little experience it became clear that it's not even the most important piece of data all the time. (I guess it's similar to another thing I learned fairly young, which is that sometimes the best way to go faster is sometimes to slow down.)

 

I hate to derail but I'm getting tired of the borderline racism directed at white males. So I'm feeling like it's white male this, white male that. It's as if all white males are labelled as a sort of broad generalised white trash demographic. I think what's meant by white male is more like a teen male demographic of any colour.

So enough racism.