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No. You see, it's not exclusive. Women, and people of all forms also enjoy that demographic. It's fun in it's own right. It's a big mistake to assume a woman wouldn't want to play metal gear solid or any other testosterone fuelled white male adventure.

It's exciting. And the same white male demographic also enjoy titles which aren't targeted at them. It's insane to think anyone would be arrogant enough to know best in 'targeting'. Do you know what food I like given my gender and colour? No, you don't.

 

What a silly thing and close minded to say. Gender makes no difference on someones ability to enter this industry..no one cares about the gender of the person that made their favorite game.

For every "damsel in distress" there is a dozen other games at minimum with drastically different story lines . You'd never in a million years be able to guess what I'm working on right now even though I'm a "white straight male".

I could care less about your gender; why do you care about mine? Why does it matter if someone is a straight white male? Who cares...seriously?

 

No, sorry, it's not. Straight white men reeeeeallly want to believe that all women, all other cultures, and all other races all love everything they like and that anyone who says otherwise is a fringe lunatic. This may be a shock, but there are actually entire countries that are willing to blow themselves up with bombs because they hate your culture so much. It's easy to say that everyone in the entire world loves Metal Gear, and use random anecdotal evidence like this one girl who you know from college, but it is an absolute undeniable fact that millions of people don't like Metal Gear Solid.

 

Try re-reading the sentence again, a few more times, and maybe you'll understand?

 

...where do you get your information from?

Maybe you should try re-reading my sentence again a few times and then tell me what I missed.

 

If you put a hundred straight white American men in a room by themselves and tell them to write a story for a game, you're going to get something that slants strongly towards the culture of straight white American men. If you put a hundred North Korean nationalists in a room, it's going to lean pretty strongly towards the culture of North Korea. A hundred Pakistani women in a room, and it's going to lean pretty strongly in yet another direction. Different cultures like different things, and almost all of them like putting characters that mirror themselves in the center of the story.

 

Let me add to cut off the inevitable kneejerk response: Yes, of course it is possible for a straight white American male to write a game entirely about gay Chinese women, and even portray their culture accurately if he has some experience with it. But a group of straight white American men who are specifically saying "I don't want to cater to 'demographics' like women or other races, I just want to make games that I like" are probably not going to do that. They're going to assume that everyone in the world will like whatever it is they like, and ignore anyone who disagrees with them. That is, after all, the entire point of proclaiming that you don't want to cater to anyone's interests but your own.

 

Well, here's an example: http://www.ruralpovertyportal.org/region/home/tags/africa
In Africa, there are 218 million people who live in extreme poverty. They own almost nothing, and barely even have enough food to survive. They certainly don't have Playstation4's. Are you going to tell me they're all just as excited to play the new Metal Gear as an average American gamer? I'm pretty sure they're more focused on other hobbies, like, you know, not dying.

 

I doubt any sane person is using words like 'ALL' this and 'ALL' that,..

I know it's an easy way to misrepresent people to bolster your argument but jeez,..

only the Sith deal in Absolutes.

 

We are perhaps talking over each other's heads. When hippocoder said I'm wrong that straight white males tend to like things that straight white males like, it sounded like he was saying that straight white males tend to like the same thing that everyone else likes, so no need to worry that stacking the deck with nothing but straight white males, because whatever they make would be equally enjoyable to everyone in the world. I would think it is obvious that I don't mean everything ever written by men is anathema to all women. However, it's ridiculous to pretend that cultural bias does not exist.

 

I don't know where to begin, I will let someone else reply for me; I don't have the time to fight the strawman arguments.

 

What is the part you don't believe? That there are millions of people who don't like Metal Gear? Is that really so hard to believe? Or the part about people willing to blow themselves up to fight other cultures? Because you could just turn on the news to hear about that.

 

Wow..

I only want to say one thing...Exciting is relative. When someone tells me a game is exciting, I take that with a grain of salt. Just as if someone tells me something is boring. We all like different things. My guess is if you actually knew the gender of your players and put them all on a graph, you would find certain games that attract more men and certain games that attract more women. Certainly the more variety in the elements of the game, the more different sorts of people you will have playing. You may find that more men like games where the focus is on big weapons and shooting them at people, while women like games where they can have a variety of roles, from non-combat to heavy combat. Maybe you won't find that, but that is my guess based on the games I have played.

Large numbers of women play The Sims games. Large numbers of men play military shoot-em up games. I know men who play The Sims and women who play shooting games.

I do not find all games you guys like to play exciting. Most of my female friends do not play fps shooter games. Most of my guy friends do. That is a tiny snapshot and the only way to get real data is to look at games and study the demographics.

Again, exciting is relative. Just because you find a game exciting doesn't mean the next guy or gal that come along will find them exciting.

Honestly, make the games you want to make. Don't worry about gender UNLESS you are purposely targeting a population. Rather, make games that are fun, quality, have some depth to them, and you will attract a playerbase that enjoys your game.

And be nice to each other. Opinions are opinions. They are neither right or wrong. Again, we need that data. The scientist in me is dying to see the results.

 

For you, some data: http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/esa_ef_2014.pdf

 

Interesting, Makeshiftwings!

However, it doesn't break down the demographics for different types of games. I already knew that the fastest growing segment of gamers was middle aged women. I also read that they play puzzle games and those subscription sites that have lots of card games. I had a friend invite me to one of those once. It was fun for a few days. Not my thing.

So, how many women play military fps games? How many men play The Sims? What are the ages of women who play WoW or other MMOs? Do older men play puzzle and card games?

And if middle age women are the fastest growing segment of the gaming population, how do WE capture some of those potential customers? How do we get them to look past casual card and puzzle games?

 

...That is truly the worst line of that entire movie, and I'll gladly offer it up as proof that George Lucas has gone senile.

 

I beg to differ. In Fact according to nothing,..most MEN look to this line as proof that George Lucas lost it.

 

uh wow makeshift. How about letting others air their views a bit. In any case, I know several women who enjoy games and their tastes range from:

metal gear, quake series, world of warcraft, cod, street fighter etc. Your tangent assumes way too much, on every level.

Everyone is different, you cannot assume that they will not enjoy something based on their gender or colour. That is just offensive and I reject it. Also I doubt you really understood what I wrote based on your replies.

 

Spec Ops: The Line attempts to do exactly this. It's a macho action game on the surface, but it attempts to get you to walk in someone else's shoes with a goal of getting you to consider just how stupid the typical macho action game / movie equivalent really is. It's a game that openly attempts to make you feel bad about playing it. According to a lead designer, quitting the game and deciding not to finish it is considered to be a valid ending (and, in fact, could be considered to be the only way to "win" the game).

 

I know that people are different and not exact clones with identical likes and dislikes. And I think you probably know that I know that, so I kind of think maybe you don't understand what I wrote either. Obviously there are individuals within cultures who differ from the cultural norm, but at the same time, it's foolish to pretend that different cultures don't even exist. It's not offensive or false to say that radical Islamic culture in the Middle East tends to be pretty violent. It would be offensive and false to say that every Islamic person in the Middle East is violent. There's a difference between the two statements. Similarly, it's not offensive or false to say that people in Japan tend to like Final Fantasy. It would be offensive and false to say that every person in Japan likes Final Fantasy.

 

Yeah I'm not assuming everyone does like things. That's the default level of understanding. I'm saying that it's possible for people to like something that they're not the target demographic for. That's an important observation and reason one should just make games they want to make.

 

Yeah, but now you are saying there is a "target demographic". My entire point is that the target demographic is usually straight white guys, and everyone else was saying that that certainly can't be true, and that all mainstream games don't have a target demographic at all, and anyone who thinks they do needs to be shut down. I think everyone knows that it is "possible" for anyone to like anything. My dog likes eating his own poop sometimes. The issue is that when a huge part of the industry is only targeting one demographic, it leaves out a whole lot of people.

 

This is in violation of Dept of Agroculture Hogwashing regs. It is stereotyped and bigoted. Not a good fit for your supposed open mind. Apparently don't bash anybody except straight white males is your mode du jour. And as Dabeh spoke to..you cannot guess what this Celtic blooded male is making.

 

Seriously, I think you need to step back for a moment. You are overwhelming people and that just shuts us down. If people here are saying that there is not a target demographic for games, or any other consumer product, then they are woefully wrong. I am not sure people are saying that. I think sometimes we think targeting a population for our games is bad and have to justify ourselves. No way, it is not bad, it is business.

You make a very good point though. The target demographic for the average AAA action packed game is most definitely males, probably white males, although I don't know enough about the focus group testing to know if they actually separate the males into racial categories. My guess is they don't but who knows.

The data that was linked above shows that 52% of gamers are men. Now, scroll down and see who conducted these test and who is using this data. It is gaming companies. In my mind, this explains why they didn't break down demographics according to game types. They were producing a broad set of data that illustrated the break down of various gaming demographics. They were not using this to target games to various demographics...just to show that they have broad appeal. I betcha they have internal data that they don't release to us. If we see how they target games, we might not be so eager to buy the games they say we shouldn't or should play. We might actually be insulted.

What would be the numbers if they broke these down into your typical game categories? How many men vs women would play RPGs, Action, Strategy, Simulation, Puzzle, Card, Board Games, etc.? We all know there would be a distinction. Some, such as Simulation games might be a pretty even split, but I betcha more women play casual puzzle games than men and I betcha men play more bloody Action games than women. Let's pretend that this is what the data says, although really, we do not know.

So what does this mean? Does it mean you should not make an action game? No. But if you do and you want to be successful, you need to target that action game to men, because more men play action games. That is the demographic you want to target. Just like businesses target men when they design Dodge trucks, they target men when they make games that appeal to more men. AAA gaming companies are businesses and they target the population that will buy their games.

Now, the OP in this thread asked about making a gender neutral game. So he/she specifically wanted create a game that would target both men and women equally....neutral, something that wasn't more appealing to either gender. In that case, he would need to think a bit differently about how he designs the game, the role he gives to male and female characters. Racial neutral game would have to also think about the characteristics of the various racial roles in the game. He would not want just women who were supportive and submission but strong women. He would want men who are caring and sensitive as well as strong. And he would want people of color who were not always the bad guys and who did not use stereotypes such as dialect. Jar Jar would not be a good choice.

If you don't want to specifically target a gender neutral population, then I wouldn't worry. I have said this many times. Figure out your target population. Then design your game.

 

I am hoping this is snark because otherwise, you have put yourself in the same position as the feminists that were attacked earlier in this thread. It is not bigoted to say a game is target to white men. Whether it is true or not, I don't know but geesh. Calm down and read. You seem to be an intelligent person, now get rid of the emotions and read rather than be reactive.

Sorry to sound like a mom...but wow.

 

Um, it seems to me that Ippdev is feeling a bit like a victim himself as a "poor white guy". When one gets to the point where all they get from a conversation is that the person is bashing white men, then there is a problem. Either the point is lost in a lot of hyperbole, which I think it is in this case, or the "victim" can only see what he wants to see, which I also think is the case here. Both men need to go to their respective corners and think a bit.

I absolutely agree that we need more game demographics in game development. I would love to have that data honestly.

 

Right, and as a member of a demographic that was singled out as well, what do you think would have happened had I said the same thing? Really. Ippdev did what many do when they feel like they are losing the upper hand, play the victim card. He could have defended his position in many other ways.

I absolutely disagree with you. I am not condoning makeshiftwings for his rant at all, but victimologist? Just another big word used to attack people that don't think like you do.

I am so sad this discussion has denigrated to this. Why can't people be grown ups and stick to the subject? I rather wonder if people were waiting in the wings, just wanting a reason to post something insulting. Sorry, but I am as tired of men playing the victim as I am of women playing the victim.

Really, this is about game making.

 

Non-whites and non-males are victims in western society (and elsewhere) and anybody who says otherwise deserves the full contempt of anyone who wishes to be seen as a capable individual.

 

If Makeshiftwings is a troll, then so are you. Why don't you take the lead and leave the thread before it gets closed. Or maybe that is the intention here. You stated your point and we either agree or don't. So no need to continue.

troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

 

Yer apparently missing his constant bashing of straight white males and tossing around the euphemism stereotype of angry white man whilst playing the open minded social saint. I see that as hypocritical and he swallowed the blue pill. I also find it offensive intellectually. Doesn't affect me emotionally.. It is internet clownage. . I know thousands of people and no two are alike in their tastes. Food, entertainment, music, healthcare, social groups preferred, games played. And emotional?? Boy..you can sure misread an intent. Junior doesn't phase me one bit. I am pointing out his folly..come on..hogwashing regulations..must be funny to me because I am in rural country...agroculture..well..chsnge a letter and a hole new meaning pops forth YMMV..Maybe read those comments in a Yosemite Sam voice and you will get the picture more clearly.

 

This entire thread has now been compromised. This isn't about poor white men. It is about demographics in games. Even if you feel bashed, can't you complain elsewhere? Why must you completely ruin a good thing. Of course, my appeals fall on deaf ears because now all you here are what you want to hear.

I hope this post is closed. Really, you are only making yourselves look bad to probably a large segment of the population. This is what always happens in discussions about gender. Either a woman or a man ends up defending themselves and the entire conversation deteriorates. I am not defending anyone in particular here, just wishing you guys would grow up and realize that this is not THIS discussion. Send your offender a private message. That happens to me quite often, honestly.

Regardless, I guess there is no need for me here since it is now between you guys. Have fun lamenting your plight. My opinion is no longer wanted. Thanks for the great conversation. Seems Unity threads always end up this way, at least ones that have any bit of controversy. I really enjoyed most of you guys and I have new found respect for a few of you, Hippocoder especially.

Hope we can have similar talks again, although I fear the same thing will happen.

 

Why did you not tell him to keep his link to an article that had no bearing on games off the thread as you did mine. I get precisely where you are coming from and it is typical in these discussions. Lord help your position if I start posting links to trash both your stance and makeshiftwings bogus cherry picking bigotry. And the pipsqueak spouting in on this thread needs to get a new pair of glasses without the propaganda fog glazing them over. He is a spiteful little thing and his hate for "white" people oozes from his posts. He cannot even tell you who that is and in what geographic areas the caucasian genetic starts and where it ends..or what of the Welsh and Basque..are they "white"..or the black Irish? What about the caucasian of India in the Asian continent? Is he/she white or not and what about the Ashkenazi Jew..Are they white or not? Can we stop the straw man BS and get back to game oriented debate or I will have to straighten some knee jerkers out with solid facts that will upset their apple carts.

 

It's not grown up at the moment. Other mods haven't participated and may choose to lock it if it continues. I suggest we completely stop with the discussion regarding white males. It's not going anywhere, and refer back to the OP Let's stay on target.

Some posts which arent related to OP might get deleted, please stay on target.

 

I can provide some insight into the point of demographics, collection and usage. But it isn't a quick response. As long as this topic doesn't draw a shut down, I'll provide some details tonight.

 

"Angry white men" is not a racial slur, but if you feel like it is oppressing you and turning you into a victim then I'm very sorry to have hurt your feelings and will avoid saying the word "angry" in the future.

 

I expect some of that shiny infographic magic!

^ updated quote.
Take it to PM, I don't want this thread locked...the admin has already asked us to get back on topic.

 

There, I made it more polite.

 

Fixed .


(Just realized italics doesn't show up where I'm trying to emphasis because quotes are in italics )

 

Let me flip this around a bit: If all of the straight white men in this thread REALLY don't actually care about race or gender, then why are you fighting so hard to STOP game developers from including more variety in their characters? If you really, truly feel that the next Call of Duty would work just fine if the characters were all a bunch of Middle Eastern lesbian Buddhist French immigrants, then why are you raging to ensure that it doesn't happen? Why argue endlessly that men are very slightly better at lifting heavy objects if you actually don't care if they make the soldiers in a game women? If you really don't care, why do you care so much?

 

Shhhhhh.

Edit: Also, you should delete the quote from your first post or otherwise he's just going to quote that and respond to it anyway.

 

I know, right!?



Hello, Nurse!

(Source: Terraria.)

 

Would be nice if we stopped saying ALL, like in AAAALL women think this, AAAALL straight white men think that, etc etc.

By the way, another example about the OP might be Final Fantasy, at least gender wise (surely not ethnic wise because they go down pretty hard with some racial stereotypes). Almost all female/male/straight/non-straight gamers I know enjoy it a lot, at least the old ones like FFVII. I think that having a good and non-sterotypical story (FF stories look kind of silly now, but when they came out they were much deeper than the average game) is a great step towards catering wide audiences, even without neutrality.

 

Please do! I will be back for that. I am fascinated by demographics. I wish we could afford to do a study of our own.

 

Here's some gender/age/genre demographics, though mostly aimed at the mobile market:
http://blog.apptopia.com/game-demographics-that-every-developer-should-know/
It shows what you'd guess, that men like action/shooting and women like puzzles/social. An interesting thing to me in that one was that women are far more likely to stay "hooked" on mobile games than men, who tend to play more mobile games but not stick with any particular one.
This one's from 2010 but I remember reading about it:
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Wand...Next_Frontier__Female_Gaming_Demographics.php
One of the interesting things was that 40% of the WoW playerbase was women, which was much higher than most people (including blizzard) had thought at the time. There are also unsurprising things, like GTA is mostly men and BigFish is mostly women.

 

I'm indifferent when it comes to this stuff, I could really care less about what gender the protagonist or antagonist is. It's just that I don't really agree with the whole reasoning behind why it's like this is because it's dominated by straight white males. We can both have the same desires, but the reasoning for them are different.

The stuff I work on has nothing to do with gender...right now I'm working on a kids app with no specific gender in mind. I also work on stuff like this(Neural network for a rudimentary obstacle-avoider/car):


What I'm trying to say is, straight white males aren't the problem...

Yeah I was updating it as you posted that .

 

Thanks for the links.

WoW doesn't surprise me as it is a social game. Nice to know though.

 

Half our guild were hardcore female pvpers though, some of whom weren't all that sociable. I think as girls grow up with gaming now, and girls are allowed to escape the dolls house and enjoy science, scifi and other things, we are seeing young women with steel in their eyes. They aren't expecting to be mollycoddled and like to just be themselves. This isn't strength, it's normality without oppressive Victorian conditioning. These are a new breed of female gamer that surprise older men and women alike.

Every poll, every scientific finding on the subject is outdated the moment you read it. Times are changing and continue to change.

 

Yeah, I don't buy that. Why post fifty times in a thread shouting that men are physically superior and that feminists are ruining the world if you're actually "indifferent" to the whole thing?

Why it's like what? You mean the prevalence of straight white men as leads? You don't think that has anything to do with the fact that it's mostly straight white men making games targeting straight white men? Ockham's razor.

 

Demographic research is still valuable, even if it is a year old. It measures trends.

As for girls, you should see my 14 year old daughter PvP in games. She is tough! My other daughter prefers socializing. WoW attracts both so they have an edge. A game that attracts players with different play-styles will have a more variety in their player base. Kinda like a restaurant with a bigger menu will attract a wider variety of diners.

 

Tumblr feminism is ruining real feminism is what I said. Also, I don't see how stating a scientific fact makes what I say any less credible..don't be "if you're not with us; you're against us". It alienates people and that's the last thing you should be doing when trying to discuss something.

These "straight white men" are also making games for dozens of other demographics...