-

Wasn't there a country that had equal conscription for men and women? Oh wait, there is, it's called Israel.

And from what I hear, that does in no way make the Israelian military less efficient than any other force in the world.

 

Yes.. But on the other hand I would defend my male friends or offer them cogent advice in a different manner or interfere in a potential physical confrontation for a female friend much sooner. The reason being at the core is that woman are the future of the tribe and that functionality can be permanently damaged with one blow to the wrong area. Kick a man in that special area and he will be in severe pain..but a month later at the hoedown he is good to go. One should care and take care of their friends and the manner in which that is done varies from person to person. IRL a female friend was raped. The guy was found by her male friends and brother, hauled from his motel and turned into a swollen and bruised mess. This is not a woman's job. Trust me on this. They should not have to go through the trauma. Call me chauvinist. I don't care. There are some things that men should take care of and some things women should.

 

So... um... isn't mob justice, like... you know... a crime?

 

I would do everything I can in my power to protect my friends and my children, regardless of my "weakness" as a woman and regardless of the gender or age of the other person. Often, we can use other means than physical brawn but if need be, I would throw my little self at them. I have known men who needed protecting more than women...and a blow to a certain part of a male's anatomy can make them infertile. It does take two to "be the future of the tribe."

I wouldn't call you chauvinistic, maybe old fashioned. That is okay. It is the younger generations that make changes in the world, not people like us, you know.

 

I know some scrappy women who at 110 pounds would get in the way of a potential fight someone picked with their 260 pound significant other and join in if it came to fisticuffs. Mind you I am currently in biker/farmer/mountain/rural folk territory currently but the core of NYC was not much different. Suburbia is a whole different ballgame here in the US of A. Do not underestimate a women who is set to defend her family and that which she loves. There is more than one story of how a 100+- pound women has lifted a car off their husbands chest when the jack failed during an underbody repair. Don't mess with momma bears offspring or go near a wild sows brood. OTOH..You walk into one of the cattle pastures around here and it will be the bull who locks your position and horns down comes at you. The cows watch. They know he has it covered. I also saw a video not too long ago where a bear tried attacking a cow herd with no bull around. The cows most certainly got the best of the bear and trashed his sorry ass. He won't be returning to that pasture any time soon.

On point two. My son and his pals in their late twenties have the same ethical stance. Do not lay a hand on the women and girls or yer gonna pay the piper right then and there.

 

I kind of like the idea that you shouldn't lay a hand on anyone unless absolutely necessary. My kids share that same ethical stance.

 

Isn't rape like you know a crime? And a heinous one at that with life shattering and altering implications... And many get off in US courts without even a slap on the wrist. Justice was served. Some folks don't need the state to do their dirty work for them. This clown got what he deserved.

 

I really hope this thread isn't derailed again....vigil anti justice could get it's own thread. I will avoid it. lol

 

Pretty sure that's a millennial thing in general.

 

I just tell those who want to brawl that "You may think you want to fight but you really do not want to." Which they don't..in more ways than one. I come from the Jackie Chan school of brawling where he whole environment is a weapon. Not one of these overamped misanthropes came at me after I uttered that phrase and stood there unphased by their puffed chest, clenched fists and foul mouthed proclamations. It is called by Bruce Lee in Enter The Dragon "the art of fighting without fighting".

http://www.shadowhand.com/essays/five_f.html

I would have added the video but both YT versions had 30 second commercials.

 

Is not the rescue of the distressed damsel in games a reflection of that which occurs in the real world? I gave an example of a real life situation that is not mere speculation and it is not derailing the thread.

 

In the US you can get killed by the cops who are there to supposedly help..or get your family dog shot..
http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-murdered-5000-innocent-civilians-since-911/172029/
You take your chances and pay the price. Street justice is street justice. Sometimes it is the only way to stop a psychopath from inflicting further damage on innocents. I know the beat cops in Atlanta would look the other way and smile if they knew a perp had it coming to them. Saved them paperwork.

 

I am not a moderator, but it would be nice of you to take this elsewhere since it has NOTHING to do with gender issues. We already went off topic from the OP's original request and I don't want to see Hippocoder close this nice thread. I am enjoying the discussion and learning a lot. I hate to see it turn into something it is not.

While I am sure I have done it myself at times, it just seems unfair to change a thread to something entirely different.

 

Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty even if that means breaking the law, but the reason we have the law and courts is to stop the innocent from being punished for crimes they didn't do. What I'm trying to say is, he could have been innocent(which the law would have probably stopped); but I have a feeling the people knew her well and wouldn't have done this if they thought she was lying and he most likely deserved it ten fold.



Maybe the rude posts have been deleted before I saw them..but pretty much everyone in this thread I agree with on at least one or more points except rsr. My initial posts were a little trolly, apologies; I should stop hanging around my circle because the only so called feminists I've met are tumblr feminists and there's not really any way to talk to them without being called a white privledged cisgendered misogynistic pig(heard this a few times now)...everyone else I've met usually just don't care.

Historically females have had it worse, in some places they still do by a large margin..but in the western world we're almost equal. If we could all just swap genders for a day I think a lot of us would realize a lot. I certainly wouldn't be going outside very much if I'd be constantly cat called and have men grabbing my asses in the clubs etc. As a man, our issues are less visible because they usually only happen behind closed doors(ever tried to get custody of your kid or had a divorce?).



There are issues on both sides of the fence, if we can all agree on that without any buts then we're all reasonable human beings .

 

And therein lies one of the main differences psychologically between male and female. From my POV it has alot to do with the original topic as I am speaking from real life and 57 years on the planet living everywhere from Europe to Toronto, Montreal, the dark heart of the Bronx, NYC, LA, New Orleans, Atlanta. Men and women and their roles were essentially the same and the same kind of stories have played out in many groups I have been told the tales of their experiences. Your attempt to stifle such talk is typical too as well as my response per gender. As well, I am perfectly within my rights to explain using factual articles with statistics to back up any points that are disputed and use such dispute to attempt to sully my reputation.

 

If you were still talking about women, in your opinion, needing protection, yeah. But you went far beyond that. No one disputed your comments, they just belong in their own thread. It can be tough to not push your own personal agenda's in threads like this, I understand. I don't always do a good job myself.

Dabah, I am older than you and most of the women I know have been through life a little. Young women are still starry eyed and idealistic, as they should be. We do get wiser as we get older (although not always smarter), at least most of us do if we are lucky, men and women.

Good point about out in the open vs behind closed doors, although I can tell you that most of my gender related problems happened behind closed doors. I can tell some interesting stories about dealing with men in authority positions in college and as a woman having to navigate that system and still be treated with respect. None of that happened in the open because the men would have been in trouble if it did! Of course, that happens to people of both genders, especially today. Same is true of the divorce situation. These days, a father can get custody of his kids, at least here. I know several have full custody. In fact, in my state, there is a 50% chance either way. Gender cannot influence the decision, although I am sure at times it does.

As for the catcalling and ass grabbing, geesh, sadly, those are things I think we have grown to expect. I had it happen in a subway once, yucky. My response was not very ladylike.

 

hmmm... just realized... that may make no sense to folks under about 30 or so....

 

It's easy to come up with a laundry list of reasons for why it's "ok" or "realistic" to portray all women in your game as pathetic and useless. It's historically accurate! It's a reflection of society! Biology and muscles or something! All of that is completely irrelevant, however. If you are asking "How can I make a game that women will like", and women are telling you "Have a woman be the hero once in a while", and all you can do is start listing excuses for why women should never be the hero and that everyone needs to shut up and just agree to like what you like, then you never were actually interested in the answer to the question in the first place.

 

Ha!!

I tend to think sometimes that people like like to hear themselves talk....in this case type. My son does that, asks me something and then when I disagree and tell him otherwise, he continues to push his point. I always wonder why he asked in the first place!

A lot of people appear to simply want to justify why they can't do something, or won't do it. Not sure why they feel the need to tell everyone, but oh well.

Capturing an under served population of future gamers should be enough for someone seriously developing games to sell. Of course many of us are here to make our games, not games that other people want to play so that could be part of the reason. Or we are just stubborn.

 

OK.. So what I have gathered is men and women are the same as in equal and all talk about muscles and biology and psychological mindset should be laid aside when discussing this delicate subject lest someone get all accusatory and stuff...but you gotta make different gameplay for women to be interested. Got it. I think..Correct me please if I have strayed far into the territory of male "understanding". What penance must I perform now that I have not been PC?

 

I think it'd be tragic to close this thread given the important views. Certainly its grown from the OP, but its still pretty much related in my view. And given the amount of times I've participated it most certainly falls under the rule where I'd have to pass it onto another moderator since I'm invested in the thread

It's a problem when it's massively offtopic or trolling, but I think this thread is very much related and will go full circle at some point, it's something that needs discussing as it's a broad subject it seems I also really like your posts Teila, please keep sharing the wisdom.

 

Project much? Those danged males like yer son just won't give you an even break. I tend to like to debate and flesh out the thoughts I have about an issue and am quite willing to be swayed by facts or a new POV. Haven't heard much to change my mind and the STFU routine, steering the subject back into dead end alleys and backhanded insults are standard in this subject if you do not follow the string of propaganda and PC views. Lord help you if you are not a mangina and actually act and think like a male. Let us not even discuss child custody matters. It is a very uneven subject to attempt to penetrate to the core of.. Does it have to do with the core topic?. Yes..every bit of it does...to me as a man...as a father.. and as a game developer. GigiWoo does social games based on male female interaction in marriage and relationships..None of this thread is moot. I can build a game from the different reactions to situations as posited by posters in this thread and each would have different powerups, health factors and goals based on each cascading decision. For the record..In my Mission Modules I have both male and female characters. There is no difference in capabilities of the characters. The outcome is predicated on the player's skill and memory not the character's gender..

 

Oh yeah, god forbid anyone get accusatory with you. You're just laying out plain facts like that every man in the world who doesn't think like you is a "mangina". No accusations there.

 

Let me try to be more clear: If the question is "How can I make a game that will appeal to women instead of just men?", then the answer is, quite obviously, to put things in the game that will appeal to women instead of just men. The answer is not, quite obviously, to come up with a big list of excuses for why you "shouldn't have to" put anything in the game that will appeal to women instead of just men. Of course you don't "have to". You can make any game you want. Similarly, everyone is free to like or not like your game. It's highly unlikely that you will ever convince someone to enjoy a game that they hate by "proving" that they "should" like the game because that's all they deserve and they shouldn't ask for anything more because otherwise they are a mangina/feminazi. Trust me, people have been trying that route for decades and it doesn't work. So either you're interested in the answer to the actual question of "How can I make a game that will appeal to women instead of just men", or, like Teila said, you just like to hear yourself talk. In which case, go ahead and list all the reasons you "shouldn't have to" make a game that appeals to women. Just don't expect to get a standing ovation for your amazing manly resistance to letting people answer the question. You're more likely to get a pat on the head and a few eye rolls.

 

OK guys keep it civil, if you feel a rage coming on just say something like well we'll have to agree to disagree. It's 100% ok to have a different opinion but no need to break out the swords and shields just yet.

 

what i meant to say is... the game depicts women as being special, something to cherish... thats what i got from it..

protection implies to cherish..
...

i think rape should be punishable by death... and ANYONE should be able to do the killing, and be rewarded and commended for doing the killing
.. if i was caught in such a situation... id kill without hesitation, and be proud, knowing im doing the right thing...
...

that said... im a 26 yr old virgin, because i have some personal mental problem that i like... respect women "too much" ... like whenever i become sexually interested in a girl.. i think of it as an evil thing, and i remove myself from the situation, and avoid being around her ... .. kinda weird... i dunno... id say im a victim of the feminist movement... in that, at an early age, i witnessed the ideas that men's sexual lust is an evil thing...
i apologize to mention this:

Spoiler: not PG i guess

.... ... once i discovered that (some type of perversion) exists in the world, i realized that That is the evil sexual lusting thing... and that usual sexual romance is not so evil... after discovering it was a thing, i desired to become a professional killer... i was filled with disgust and anger... ... but knowing that killing is not a righteous act :

, i realized that my experience with modding games, and interest in games is strong in me, all my life... and that i can use video game artwork as a "weapon" to fight evils in the world, by influencing peoples thoughts... ... that is why iam here on Unity.

 

In any case its a sign that the thread should get back on track. Looks like that part of the problem in making a game that appeals to both genders is knowing what to target. With so many conflicting opinions here, I can't help but think that it's a pretty difficult thing to do.

 

I'd disagree. I hate to belabor the point (oh, who am I kidding, i LOVE belaboring points), but the opinions are mostly divided between "Here's some things women will like" and "It's not fair, I don't WANT to make games that women like, you can't make me!" Those are not actually conflicting opinions; they are two separate things. The first is an answer to the question; the second is just an attempt to stop people from listening to any of the answers or to give people an excuse to cover their ears and just say it's toooo haaaaarrrrd.

 

Are you implying these people should be forced? They're not trying to censor anyone...how can you think that? It's about making money, if you think there's a market with even more money to be had...prove it. It has nothing to do with forcing opinions down peoples throats..games are just about the end goal: money.

You're a bit too worked up about this all; get some fresh air away from the interweb

 

Makeshiftwings, I am sure there is a reason for people to react the second way. Maybe their game is almost done and they feel some pressure to make changes they don't want to make? Or maybe they don't want to make games that women would like because....well, they don't want to make games like that. Maybe they haven't a clue how to start, so they don't want to hear all this advice.

If they make that choice, then it is fine. I usually skip over those comments that are obviously just ranting. Hey, we all rant sometimes, right? My surprise is that people who don't care about marketing to another niche of potential customers would come to this thread in the first place! But then, I have been constantly surprised at why people post on the Unity forum threads about things they hate or don't care about. LOL It is as if they feel compelled to give their opinion, regardless of whether the subject matter is important to them.

I have some theories about this but they are better kept to myself. I am confident enough that at least some people will get the message hidden in the discussion. I commend the OP for starting the topic, whatever his/her intent was.

All this boils down to choosing your player base. It is okay if your player base is teenage boys, children, middle-aged women, or whatever you want. You don't have to appeal to everyone. Just remember, the more broad your appeal, the more customers you will attract.

Now, we are making a niche game. It will appeal to a small subset of players, based on playing style, not on gender or age. We know this and we are prepared for this. Others are constantly telling us we shouldn't do this or that because it will turn off some people. But we know this. Some play-styles are simply not compatible so we made a difficult choice and are sticking with it. We may end up with a game that isn't marketable and we will deal with that if it happens.

So..make your choice, and create your game to your potential base. Don't worry if someone tells you that you need to do this or that. Do your research and stick to your guns. You can always change things after some play testing. Just make sure your testing group reflects your chosen fan base. Don't have a a bunch of grown men testers if you are trying to appeal to little girls.

 

I make games for people. Why should I make games catering to gender? If I make RPG styled gameplay I would use archetypes. My son's male friends play female characters and the girls play male characters depending on the characters offered and their skillets in various games. So..IMO the original thrust of the female blustering on about supposed "male" oriented gameplay is just a part and parcel of the shrillness emanating from that camp constantly as though they are representative of an entire swath of their gender and slot the rest of the other 50% into the testosteronated buffoon category.

 

Which posters on this thread are you accusing? Or were there alot of replies at the article that you were referencing? Can't be me because I make freelance making kids games, memory puzzles, my own inventions with front end for MIDI controller config done in Unity and if I ever get around to releasing my more complex character based apps they have nothing to do with any genre where damsels need saving or any standard routines. The archetypes are taken from the Tarot on those games.

In the real world dealing with women game designers... I was lead dev on KickStarter MMORPG project brought to me by two Indian ladies. They made the whole story up. It was about Kings and Queens and treachery and knights and princesses with multiple planetary kingdoms fate in the balance and the big finale in the GDD was when the guy gets the girl and they fall in love. I must say thank heaven they sent out an email blast and had the project pulled because you are not supposed to do blasts (though it did get over 20K USD pledges in less than 48 hours) ..because ya know..I just could not get them to realize that you cannot get two players to "love" each other in an RPG..Just how does that mechanic work? How is it enforced..and isn't every other player S*** out of luck when it comes to gameplay?

 

Oh, Ippdev, I am not accusing anyone of anything. Whatever reasons people have, they are all legitimate. It is not a sin to make games that appeal to men, or to boys, or to any subset of the population. I meant in general, referencing the post above me.

Making games for kids is always a way to endear someone to me as I feel there is a great vacuum in good kids' games. There used be many, now there are so few. Unfortunately, lots of kids play adult games now and the educational games are dull and dry.

Love your story about the "players falling love". How funny! Yeah, that might be pushing it a bit. The fact that you got 20k in pledges in such a short time does make me think though. Maybe a player falling for an NPC might work? Or the other way around? Of course, there should be a chance the player rejects the NPC, causing the story to have a completely different ending.

 

I had just finished making tracks and went for a read before going back to this endless runner gig and this was the first article I chanced upon. It has a good deal of bearing from my POV and is why we build games and sims and why people play them or amuse themselves with them.
-----------------
by Jon Rappoport
September 21, 2014
www.nomorefakenews.com

Throughout the madness of what we call human history, people have always managed to make room for places where imagination can operate.

This operation isn't about the normal avenues of emotional feedback. It isn't about solving problems. It isn't about staying faithful to standard beliefs. It isn't about reflecting daily life.

It's about something Beyond.

It doesn't matter that most people consider these flights brief respites from the real business of living. It doesn't matter that most people prefer to remain spectators. It doesn't matter that most people deny their own imaginations have any true power.

It doesn't matter that the works of artists have been co-opted, frozen, and recast as organized religions. It doesn't matter that, time and time again, the work of artists has been stolen to assist control agendas.

Humans continue to make a place for something Beyond, in the hope that they can experience what they really are.

In my book, The Secret Behind Secret Societies, I recount my friendship with Richard Jenkins, an extraordinary healer, who worked with my people in New York, in the 1950s and early 60s.

Richard once wrote to me, "There you are in your apartment on Bleecker Street, painting night and day. You come up to my apartment to watch me work with patients, to find something different. I'm telling you that it's the same thing. I hope you realize that. We're in strange times, and they're going to become stranger. People are organizing themselves as never before, on a much larger scale, all over the world. That's the space of the future. Then there are other spaces, which very few people believe in. In those spaces, the most extraordinary things happen. This will be the choice that humanity makes as it creates its own fate. Live in the organized territory, or explore the other spaces...One day you'll look back on our work together, and you'll either cherish it or you'll think of it as a momentary illusion..."

1960. First day of rehearsal for a college play, The Lower Depths. I walk out on the stage and look around. It's quiet, but inside I feel thunder. Everything is different. New shining space. I start smiling. Without knowing it, I've been waiting for this moment for God knows how long. A place apart. A world where imagination takes on flesh and comes to life.

The theater director, Walt Boughton, is leaning against a wall. He looks at me. He sees and he knows. He nods. His message is clear: That's right, my boy, you're here, this is it, nothing will ever be the same...

We live in a society where consumers can pick and choose among thousands of narratives about themselves, their lives, their future, their duties, their needs, their status---all happening in the consensus organized space.

Awhile back, I wrote about a new Pentagon/DARPA project aimed at studying brain signals, in real time, to understand how and why people buy some narratives and reject others.

A common feature of most narratives is: limited life, limited power.

Or to put it another way, limited access to larger aspects of Self.

The trick of narratives, as retired propaganda master, Ellis Medavoy, once told me, is: built-in limitation; it looks like "desire fulfilled"; it looks like happiness.

But it isn't.

And when people find that out, they experience buyer's remorse.

"Why did I think that narrative described what I wanted? Why did I think it would make me satisfied?"

The space-continuum in which we live has its own narratives. They hang from it like barnacles. The gist? You can't get out. There is nothing to get to.

Again, I refer to the brilliant hypnotherapist, Jack True, whom I interview 43 times in my collection, The Matrix Revealed. Jack did sessions with patients that went directly at the space-time matrix.

"Under hypnosis," he said, "I had people look at the continuum and tell me what they saw. I had them describe it in their own way. Then I asked them to look outside it."

The material from those sessions is extraordinary, in several respects. It helped me, when I was researching my companion collection, Exit From the Matrix.

Some of Jacks' patients came "back around the barn," as Jack characterized it, and ended up relating what sounded like dreams, dreams they would have while asleep. The narrative wasn't smooth, it wasn't moving from beginning to end. It was asymmetrical, just as in dreams, where the scenery shifts, where one event ends in midstream and another pops up, where the "plot line" dissolves...and a new plot takes over.

Several of Jack's patients said their encounters outside the space-time continuum felt very familiar---as if they'd been there before.

Jack: "One patient said he found himself in a dim hall. It was very large. People were talking, but he couldn't see them. A single voice took over, and a character stepped out of the shadows. He told the patient this was one of a great number of places outside ordinary space-time. He said there was no reason to consider this 'visit' strange or unusual. On the contrary, life inside space-time was unusual..."

There are millions and millions of narratives that are used to convince people that life inside this space-time is It, is all there is, is normal...

And normalcy is the key. That's the icon, the symbol, the header, the trance-inducer. What is normal seals the deal. It labels what is allowed to be experienced. It tells people what is not allowed to be experienced.

These narratives about normalcy hold people inside the gates, and provide boundaries for Self. "Self can't get any bigger than this."

In the early 1960s, I was teaching at a private school in West Los Angeles.

These kids in our small private school were all rejects from the public system, or from other private schools. They couldn't make it there. Many of them were what the psychologists called "acting out."

I'd have to write a few hundred pages just to begin giving you the flavor of what it was like to deal with 15 or 20 of them, at once, in a classroom. It wasn't about teaching content, believe me. It was about me surviving.

But at bottom, every one of those kids was, in his/her own highly idiosyncratic way, Not-Normal. That's all. And what was driving them completely bat-crazy was, no one would deal with them on their own terms.

Everyone was trying to fix them. Everyone was feeding them narratives about "normal, fitting in."

One day, out of desperation, I changed all that. In my classes, we worked up improvised sketches. Theater. No plot, no direction, no narrative, just off-the-cuff dreamtime in the moment and lots of roles, some of which they were already playing every day to a dead audience of teachers. But it wasn't dead now. They had me and they had each other.

They jumped at the chance. They didn't need any direction or instruction. It was as if they'd been waiting all their lives for someone to say, "Just perform what you're already performing."

They were actors. That's what they'd been trying to tell adults.

And everything fell into place. They loved it, I loved it, we all offloaded a few tons of stress and a whole lot of insane normalcy...and then they calmed down. Not because there was a strict rule about behavior, but because they had escaped the tyranny of Is. And Has To Be. And Must. And Normal.

That day, the space-time of the continuum, in that classroom, went away. It disintegrated. What took its place was an island of joy. Which is to say, what sits outside this matrix is more real than real. When you find it.

It doesn't have to be spooky.

It's Magic Theater.

Sit down some time with a bunch of real stage actors and ask them when they feel most alive. A certain percentage of them will confess it's when they're on the boards, performing a role. That's when they feel most like themselves, even though they're pretending to be somebody else. That's when the day-to-day space-time continuum goes away and new one comes into being.

That's when normal steps aside and paranormal makes its entrance.

A fake space, a repressed space, a continuum of frustration vanishes.

Conventional standards don't explain what is happening. They can't.

Life. Theater. Theatricality. Roles played to the hilt. The Paranormal.

There is no single narrative for a human being. Sometimes the stage is dead, the lights are off, the seats are empty. But then we get a glimpse of something else. We walk up on the stage and feel that space and realize the old walls are gone and this is it, and we're ready, and the energy comes out of nowhere and we do things we thought were impossible.

Normal disintegrates.

This is art. This is a level of life that is waiting for all of us. And whether we admit or not, we've been waiting for it, too.

Jon Rappoport

-------------------------

So..do we play games to duplicate our real life or to escape into our imaginations to get away from our real life roles. I posit the big burly brawler would not take on the rescuing of the damsel in distress role. He can do that already IRL. The post pubescent hormone driven nerd OTOH gets to use his imagination. Conversely the nerd girl can feel that same power when immersed within their imagination playing that same role.

 

Wouldn't an NPC lover be similar to a "love doll" LOL.. My solution to the dilemma was to turn the whole linear timeline into a multivariant forking trajectory timeline based on decisions with an economic and political simulation based on the planetary archetypes and slotting them to indigenous peoples on Earth with similar geology as far as cultural artifacts and religious bent. Then to allow other players key roles whilst the economic simulation played out for all the other players, I set the history timeline to three days where the varying plot unfolded and then whomever survived and whomever became the wealthiest denizen from the previous "Round of History" would take their appropriate place in the next Round of History to play out the mission parameters, make decisions and deal with the outcomes in their economic and political sphere. Each Ropund of History got stored in a library that was player dialogues and cam shots at various points throughout each round and ccould be referred back to for strategy planning or plain ole reminiscing. I could not for the life of me figure out how to get two players to do a mechanic that invoked the semblance of love between them ..To me it had to be somewhat real (like a real girl and boyfriend IRL) or it was bogus and contrived to the point to be laughable and believe me..the trolls would have eaten that one alive.

I will not do violent games nor will I work for the DoD or other department of casual destruction outpost. No blood, no demons, no black magic and no zombies.

 

Again, my point is, YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE GAMES THAT APPEAL TO WOMEN, but since the OP of the thread is (allegedly) a question about how to make games that appeal to women, then it's pretty stupid to go into the thread just to rant about how much you don't want to.

PS, toning down my abrasiveness two notches just to make hippocoder's life easier.

 

A few thoughts back on-topic. There are two facets to this question, as Taschenschieber pointed out. First, how to make a game that "appeals" to a certain demographic. IMNSHO, the steps are:
1) Actually ask people in that demographic what they want.
2) Shut up.
3) No, seriously, just shut up for five god damn seconds.
4) Listen to what they're saying.
5) Adjust your game to include the things they say they want.

In my experience, even teams that specifically have full blown user testing and feedback methods tend to fail as soon as they get around step 2. Most people, designers especially, are way more interested in justifying whatever path they're currently on than they are in listening to feedback and making changes.

The second facet is making games that don't contribute towards the oppression or negative stereotyping of other genders/races/cultures. There's obviously a lot of overlap with the first issue, since people aren't going to like games that offend them. When dealing with this, I'd say the main things to do are:
1) Actually ask people in other demographics if they feel hurt by something, and why.
2) Shut up.
3) Holy crap, seriously, again? Do I have to make you stand in the corner?
4) Listen to what they're saying.
5) Spend at least a solid ten minutes alone actually trying to see the issue from their perspective.
6) Decide what's more important to you: not hurting these people, or being "right".
7) Adjust your game based on that decision.

Most people again can't get past step 2. A few can, but usually don't bother with step 5, which is unfortunately rather important. I think ethically, it's important to consider this second facet in whatever you're doing. But let me make two things clear: I'm not saying or implying that you should always choose not hurting someone when you get to step 6. And again, of course, no one is FORCING you; the moral police are not going to come crashing through your door, and giant evil feminist monsters will not stomp your house. You CAN do whatever you want, offend whoever you want, and you can even yell about how important it is that you keep offending whoever you want because if you don't the satanist communist liberal federal agents will win. Whether or not you SHOULD is something that requires a bit of introspection.

 

Teila thanks for your input. It's fairly obvious the majority of game devs are male, so it's good to get an actual female opinion on what females want in games.

 

I missed this post because I was writing my own post above, but I think this step by step guide is the smartest thing I've read in this whole thread!

 

okay...
so .. how would one write a game, for the purpose of social engineering males to have more respect for females??

i think having a damsel in distress is valid.. maybe not the best way, but it has some amount of validity for this purpose... (if done right)

i was thinking if you have a girl in a position of power, it has some validity... depending on how you handle it.. its actually really good if done right... but if she commands you the player it doesnt work as good, dont let it be perceived as condescending,

i dunno im just thinking aloud... lol

..lol i think the fact that i played that zelda game for SNES is in part the reason iam saying these things now..
i want to be a hero and save girls lol

 

You want to make a game to social engineer males to have respect for females? Wow. That is a lot of power for one game.

Who respects the damsel in distress? Yeah, it makes the players feel good to rescue the helpless NPC, but it doesn't build respect, other than maybe respect for the rescuer. Better to have a strong female companion that helps the player with his/her missions in the game. You feel sorry for someone in distress and somewhat superior, but you feel respect for someone strong enough to help themselves and others. I think people sometimes mistake tenderness and affection for respect. They are not the same. One can respect a person they are not attached or attracted to.

Regardless, I don't think a game can social engineer anything. It could help by using non-stereotypical images of people as characters in your story, whether gender related or race related. But it takes a lot more than a game to make serious inroads into social issues. It would have to be coupled with education and changing norms in our society.

What it might do though, is get you a little press, attract players you might not get, and help you to create an original game that isn't full of cliches...such as the damsel in distress. I think it is cute how much everyone is obsessed with that here! Is it really that common in games these days?

 

yeah id agree with that... i just found it kinda funny, interesting, that they see the damsel in distress thing as a negative, and i saw it as a positive..

.. i dunno.. i like the ideas Bob Marley had.. about being able to change the world with his music... and that every little thing you say in media affects the peoples minds..

... and I can attest to the fact that playing games at an early age have Seriously altered the way i perceive reality. ... lol i played nintendo & sega with my dad, and learned to read at like 3 yrs old playing Rings of Power which had alot of vocabulary actually ... and Zelda SNES

hmm yes... Rings of Power is a strong game for this reason... id make a game like that with a girl protagonist maybe.... i learned from that, that the earth is Mine, and to be righteous... or something like that haha
.

 

If you really want someone to be affected by a game to the point of changing their views on something, then make them walk in the shoes of another person. Give them an emotional experience. Sounds cool to me but my guess is a lot of young men will find it dull, boring, and won't tell their friends they are playing such a game! Not all of them, of course, and maybe that is the ticket. One at a time, they say.

 

Just to rant? Nice strawman there..I guess you were gonna tone it down right after this shot and duck for cover. If you think the smattering of colorful language and life experience was one of my rants I assure you the phaser was on tickle and not on stun.

Back to the matter at hand.. Imagination and the wielding of it in gameplay and social constrictures meant to inhibit or enhance certain factors in game design and their worthiness to contemplate when designing future games..the good and the bad of them philosophically, academically and experientially for and from the male and female POV. I believe the essay I posted from Jon Rappaport sums up our innate need to imagine as a transformative magic. If so then should one become the same one is when entering a game environment and role-play or should it be something one would not do in real life? I like to think about complex systems that are not arbitrary..so my games have alot of puzzle and mechanics stuff based off the quadrivium and trivium. I also like martial arts so I have a massive mecanim setup I have trained rigs to do katas with by number sequences. Women are just as fierce in martial arts as men. I make games for brain and reflex and rapid discernment training that hopefully are entertaining and have interesting characters. I pay no mind to demographics or marketing. I am an artist scientist type and the process is more interesting to me than the final product.

 

Ok, to "eloquently pontificate in the manner of an angry gentleman" about how much you don't want to. Is that better? You are awfully sensitive for someone who writes umpteen paragraphs complaining about how much you shouldn't have to care about the sensitivities of others.

You know, that's not an actual sentence. You should put a verb somewhere in between all those big words.

 

A single game where you are a white guy rescuing a helpless damsel in distress is not that bad. The issue is there are a billion games where you play as a white guy rescuing a helpless damsel in distress, and not very many of any other character combination.

As for socially engineering guys to respect women; well, you're right that some men would feel small if they had to take orders from a woman, as most of the history of the world will show. But if there were a thousand games where men took orders from women, it would stop being weird, and they'd get used to it. If actual real world militaries can get used to it, then gamers can too.

 

That is certainly one way to approach it. For me, my philosophy/approach to creating games takes a different path.

I focus, primarily on shiny and bouncy. Depending on the narrative, I may also explore the application of sparkly, but that is my big gun, so I use it judiciously. And obviously I will almost use use explody. But since explody is fairly common, I trying use it in a nuanced way. (for example, incorporating sparkly). On games where I have more influence on the core design/story, my signature tool is robots. There is simply no game style, genre or mechanic that cannot benefit from the inclusion robots. Really, it's just fundamental for a quality game.

 

I got's me own style and it is often run-on and alliterative. I admit to having frustration this week and i think most here would if they were dealing with the idiots I am on a huge manufacturing deal where I am ready to pull the plug on the greedmeisters and open source an invention I put the last six months into. I was by no means trolling this thread or posters therein. I do hold alot of opinions about this which you have misconstrued hence my re-explanation. But yer dealing with what you think is my archetype instead of who i really am.. I don't make games for men either but I do have characters and creatures and bots in a few of my more complex projects. I am saying, fore your ediication, that i believe the best approach is not to cater to demographics or gender but to make I simply make games that you yourself could enjoy. I figure there has gotta be other headspaces like mine so... I like to make or have to make to fulfill freelance contracts. My other stricture in regards to this topic is I don't do propaganda based paradigms..anti-propaganda yes.. and I think some part of the feminist dogma is propagandistic and leads to unnecessary conflict.

 

Of course, but in an industry dominated by straight white men who don't want to cater to anyone else and simply make games that they themselves enjoy, you end up with games that cater to straight white men.

If calling people "manginas" and saying that men who don't share your views are not "thinking like males" is an example of "anti-propaganda", then I'd prefer regular ordinary propaganda. It tends to be a little bit more palatable.